I don't like to disagree with you, but... it's kinda hard to umm, find other things to do, when everyone else you know is playing some video game or other. I used to try to find people to have a game of baseball or something now and then when I was a kid, and after nintendo came out, it was just as well to forget about it. In fact many peoples social lives now revolve specifically around video games, lan partys, etc. So, saying that there are plenty of things to do besides video games isn't exactly accurate... sure sometimes there are, the 1-3 times a week you might be able to sign up for an actual league sport of some kind. A lot of these overlap in schedules, so doing multiple sports/activities is damn near impossible, and you are still usually left with very long stretches of time in between where really your only options are to sit watching the boob tube(or stare blankly at a wall, I prefer the wall most of the time, but its your choice) or go to a bar somewhere and slowly sink into alcoholism. People are so busy these days as well, that a lot of times is damn near impossible to get together with more than 1, maybe 2 friends for anything at all on any kind of a regular basis.

Of course I'm not blaming this on anyone, no one deserves the blame. Its just the way society is moving right now, and I can't see it slowing the transition anytime soon.

But the point a lot of people make as to "theres a lot of other things to do" isn't valid in many, many scenarios. Hell, right now I'm in a place where my two options for entertainment/time killers are A) playing video games slowly going insane and entertaining myself with all the colorful butterflies dancing around in my head or C) drinking myself into a stupor so that I'm no longer aware of my surroundings. Of course occasionally I have a few things to do, but this amounts to a few hours a day at best. What exactly am I supposed to do with the rest of my day?


And kryo, if you actually read history. Yeah, it actually was pretty damned bleak. Its almost just as bleak now, but we have colorful distractions from it.

Interesting viewpoint, and I'm guessing I'm one of those 'idiots' you're ranting at. Unfortunately, if you take a look back through my posts, I'm quite certain you'll find I never once said I support DRM. Mainly because I hate it. My sole point is on pirating games.

Not be a troll since I do agree with what you mean about there not being much else for modern entertainment for a lot of people this day and age, (triply so if you live in a small hick town and it's winter 7 months out of the year and physical disabilities prevent from doing outdoorsy stuff) but it is fun being the devil's advocate so here goes: (pardon the sarcasm )

#1: There is two age old inventions that have been around, ooh since the mid evil era that have caught on pretty spectacularly over the centuries. One is dead pieces of plant matter compressed into thin sheets and then written on.

These amazing items were called books and were often used to convey stories, history and concepts across the ages. Given you can obviously read since you;re posting on the internet, and 99% of all towns and cities have a local library, perhaps taking stroll down there and reading a fiction book of your favorite video game setting might help alleviate the boredom.

#2: Before the invention of these so called "manuscripts" there was another tradition that probably got invented sometime around that of the campfire, Role Playing. (no not the nurse and patient dress up bedroom type, although that is another form of non video game entertainment that;s been around since the beginning of the species, but anyway.) I'm talking the interactive story telling type, that;s evolved in modern day into Pen and paper role playing, with a multitude of genres from Fantasy to horror and high tech space sci-fi there's something for everyone as long as you've got a bit of imagination. (and given most people that play video game have some great ideas for story lines, heroes etc.. for them, I'm sure you've got at least a few stories you'd enjoy telling as a game master) Best of all it's (mostly) free aside from a few books (or electronic pdf's of those books, which yes are also pirated for much the same reasons as video games are) and there's hundreds of games that take place all of the time over the net if you can;t manage to lure a few of your friends away from their video games long enough to roll some dice and have fun.

So aye, guess what I'm saying is there's a few other options that will satisfy your desire for entertainment and don't cost a lot at all. After all, if you're poor enough you can't afford $50 for the latest pc games, then it's really, really, unlikely you can afford the necessary upgrades to your pc (graphics card, dual core processor, etc..) to be able to play the latest video games. (Unfortunately people haven't found a way to discreetly and conveniently pirate those form the comforts of their homes. (Yet...)

Yeah, books are pirated hardcore. Many times the full book is leaked before its released. But in my particular situation, that didn't even occur to me, and thank you for pointing out that there is a little bit more to do. Right now I'm about 2 hours drive away from the nearest book store, so thats not even really an option. Not at the rate that I read. I already own most of the forgotten realms collection, and dragonlance, bunch of books by terry brooks, the wheel of time, etc. I read a lot, and have already read almost everything that interests me(including every topic I can think of on wikipeda). Also, I live in a town of 250 people at the moment. I wouldn't call it a 'hick' town precisely, since that implies that we're in the US somewhere back in hillbilly country, and we're not. Not even close. High speed internet is available in the next town down the coast, but not here, coming soon(tm) though. D&D is maybe a once a week fix, at best. IF you can find enough people that are interested that can get together even that often.

Anywho, I realize that I'm in a small minority that most of what you said doesn't really apply to. But the point is the same. There really is very little to do, reading constantly and not socializing is not healthy, so I'm gonna ignore that option for pretty much everyone, the same way I ignore watching TV all day as an option. Reading is slightly more engaging than watching TV, depending on how imaginative a person you are, but not much more so, and for many, not at all. D&D type games always require a ton of time to play, and you have to get people willing to contribute that much time to it. Yes I have DMed several games in the past(when I was living elsewhere, can't here), but its an infrequent thing to do at best, and falls under the category of organized sports that I mentioned already.

As for the games taking place on the internet thing, technically thats a form of pirating in and of itself. If I cannot afford the $30+ dollar players handbook, or DM book etc, and I go online, and use online resources to get all my information for free, I am, in essence, pirating all of that material because I am using it without paying for it and therefore do not have the owners permission to do so. As such this argument is null and void, because it falls under the same piracy category, and if I can't afford a video game or some half decent hardware, whats the chances I'm going to be able to afford to spend literally hundreds of dollars on RPG books?

Note, I actually have a pile of DM books etc, and money isn't a large concern. Just making my point


Coelocanth: Thats for anyone that supports DRM in any form(excepting a string of letters inputted to register something - I don't even consider cd keys DRM, even though, technically, they are). Supporting anti-piracy requires that you support DRM in some form, as its the only way to eventually put a complete end to it(cdkeys aint gonna cut it). Guilt by association, as it were.

Just a note Ironhandx: you can DL the System Reference Document for D&D right from the WotC website, so no pirating involved in that.

As for guilt by association: I don't agree. I'm not advocating DRM. Not at all. But pirating is the root cause of DRM in the first place. Like it or not, game companies are forced to use DRM because publishers have the impression that 90% of people playing their games are pirates. Whether that's true or not (and I doubt it is), that's what they think. So they decide they have to use DRM to stop the pirates - even though it's patently obvious it doesn't work. Now, companies like SD/IC are seeing the light and starting to change that - and god I hope this is the beginning of a trend in the gaming industry - but the fact remains that because they perceive pirates as a problem, that's why we have to put up with DRM schemes in the first place. So I don't have to be an advocate of DRM to take the stance that piracy is a 'bad thing'.

Wow, I got a dev to respond, yes there where now cvideo games to recently, but I didnt live back then now did I? Oh and I belive i was raised by one of the orignal computer programers, oh and I was given a pc at 10 and told to do what I want and learn because it was the future, you can look in the past if you want but i prefer to look into the future, plus learning all this stuff will give me a chance to get a job where i can afford to purchase everything i use....... is that not important?

companies like SD/IC have taken the first step, but they need to take more. Namely, bring back renting... OBVIOUSLY not renting games doesn't stop piracy. what it does accomplish wholly, as apparent from numerous posts here, is that it allows people to use the excuse that they need to test drive the game before buying. Solution: let them. I don't like the idea that you give a 15 day full version free trial period, because many people can finish a lot of games in that time. But you COULD give a cheap 7 day/etc rental license that costs about the same as renting a console game for a week couldn't you? that way do you curb a lot of piracy and your revenues probably will have a net gain. Most 'casual' pirates would probably feel a lot more comfortable paying 5 bucks for a week to try a game rather than pirate to try, give em some credit.

Your running yourself in circles on that one. The only theoretical way to end that loop of yours is to make piracy legal, which then just nullifies the whole thing.

You > Pirates are the cause of DRM due to producers being anti piracy, and I agree with anti-piracy.

Me > So then you support DRM by proxy, due to supporting anti piracy (read: guilt by association)

You > No. Pirates are the cause of DRM due to producers being anti-piracy, and I agree with anti-piracy.

Me > So then you support DRM by proxy, due to supporting anti-piracy, and the only solution to 100% prevent piracy is crippling DRM(read: guilt by association) since there will ALWAYS(read: until we have star trek level technology, everyone gets most things for free through a replicator and creative things are done simply for creativeness sake) be people that just don't want to pay for anything ..........

You get the idea, broken record and whatnot. My statement is true, and is proven true by your own arguments whereas yours is rhetorical crap that you are spouting so that you can sleep easier at night while software corporations play who-has-the-biggest-margins with your money thats been wasted on horrible games.

Also, in ANY OTHER INDUSTRY IN THE WORLD, if the kind of crap products that get shoved at consumers all the time, with no hope of refund I might add, were produced in any other industry, the better business bureau etc would be all over them. This is why I have zero sympathy for the producers that actually attempt to use DRM to protect their terrible games and have their games pirated anyways, then blame everything on pirates. Those that don't, and produced a quality game,I'm 100% behind. Theres nothing that can be done about pirates without violating god only knows how many privacy laws(and actually, companies are already in danger of facing class action law suits because of this). As you can't stop them, its idiotic to be against them, and even more stupid to waste millions upon millions of dollars on useless encryptions and drm that do nothing to even slow the pace of piracy, and in some cases, even speed it up. The gaming industry breaks so many business laws in its dealing with the general consumer that its ludicrous that 80% of them haven't been shut down. At any rate, the quality issue will be helped along a lot once the new copyright review goes through and many of the existing code snippet copyrights are revoked. IE game company X no longer has to find a creative extended way to code around wanted feature/mechanic/module Z because company y has it copyrighted. Microsoft has segments of code copyrighted that are only 20 lines long. I mean WTF?


On the topic of renting: Back when I could still rent, I did this all the time with computer games. but that was almost 10 years ago. Of course even then some titles were not available and I had to pirate them to try them out anyways, or play craps with $40 and a possible new coaster. I tried to do the 'right' thing at first, and buy games based on detailed reviews and research etc... but found that the only thing I could really count on for a good review, was me. Its the same for most everyone, nobody knows what you like except you.

Its the same with the movie/music industry etc as it is in the video game industry, sales in all venues are at record highs, almost every year setting a new record, yet somehow piracy is stealing 80% of their possible sales. Does anyone else smell that? Why, I think it might actually be a new kind of bullshit, a kind of bullshit that puts the government to SHAME. There has been a MASSIVE explosion of popularity for movies/music/games etc since the advent of P2P, which, funnily enough, started around the same time P2P did. Yet still somehow, when someone makes a terrible product, and it doesn't sell, they get to blame the consumer for pirating it. For example: I love the movie 300, hell I went to see it in theaters twice, and downloaded like 4 or 5 different pirate copies of it at home before it came out and THEN went and bought the damn DVD as soon as it was released. So yes, I am a pirate, and will remain a pirate, until the f***ed up business model related to media in all forms is fixed.

To SD: Thank you for taking that first big step forward. Every quality product you release from now on will have my support and cash delivered to it upon release as long as it remains DRM free. For taking the first big step, I'll even omit the quality part for most things, as long as its not too terrible haha.

Did I say I support anti-piracy measures? No. All I'm saying is pirating games is wrong and people shouldn't delude themselves that they have a right to games if they don't buy them, or that pirating isn't stealing/wrong/choose your epithet. That's all. You're seeing/inferring things that I've never said.

Dammit: No edit button


The SRD has everything in it. You have to specifically know the game inside and out to avoid simply having it broken by a kensai, hulking hurler, etc etc etc, and have about 50 bans in place before starting the game so that it lasts past level 5 or 6.

Of course, we had a good game going like that, and then killed tiamat via suprise attack round and using 2 scrolls to drop a elder earth elemental on her(final damage was somewhere around 3k in one smack). With level 7/8 characters. 5 levels + in one fight + 15 million ish gold worth of items = gg. For the last year or so I've been unable to get a decent game going, even on the interwebs. Worst thing is that theres new brokenness cropping up all the time, after they leveld that game had a mage in it that was immune to everything except normal hits(don't remember specific classes). With a quick Fly spell he was pretty much impossible to corner, and was theoretically simply immune to everything. We got lucky on that one of course, the DM rolled a 1 for tiamats initiative check

I think his point was that by saying pirating is wrong, you have to by default support the measures which combat it, other wise its just empty words.

Equivocating pirating with stealing? Then saying that you are against pirating, as "no rationalization is good enough to justify piracy" therefore, you are, in effect, anti-piracy, even if somehow in your confused mind you can't figure out which side of the fence you are on. Yes, there are areas of gray near the fence on both sides, and extremes far away from the fence, also on both sides. However, thanks to the zero tolerance crap that the MafiAA/RIAA lobbyists etc preach all the time there is a very solid fence in place that has eliminated any middle ground.

Piracy of a game is perfectly legitimate, because I can't return it. If you make a terrible product, you should go out of business. If a, say, TV company starts up, and makes absolutely horrible TVs, they aren't going to last long. One or two people are going to get the TVs, find out they are absolute shit ***BRING THEM BACK FOR A REFUND*** and warn their friends. Put simply, they got to try the product, didn't like it, and brought it back. They have spent zero dollars for this experience, because it was terrible. I can do the same thing with a bag of potato chips, even after they are opened. So explain to me, exactly, why its illegal for me to want to do the same thing with another product, such as a video game? and then explain why its legal for a company to specifically PREVENT me from doing so? Since my ONLY option is then to illegally pirate the game if I actually want my investment to be a safe one, theres your justification. Right there. This is NOT a point of view, or an opinion, this is simply a statement of FACTS.


If I could return a video game/move/cd because it was crap, I would never pirate again. Since I can't do that, and since all media companys are making far too much money swallowing and regurgitating utter crap, I will likely remain a pirate for many many years to come.

Frog: I hope you prove me wrong on that last statement and take over everything. All we need is you guys to team up with google and take over the world, it would be a much better place IMO.

Again with the edit button :/

Precisely, right on the money. TYVM. God, I can't seem to simplify things down sometimes :/

I know exactly where I stand. I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand it: I don't like piracy and I don't like DRM. Publishers figure they have to use DRM to combat piracy. If piracy didn't exist, no DRM. Not that hard to figure is it?

As for your point about being able to return games: yeah, I agree. Ideally, you should be able to return it if it doesn't work or if there's something wrong with it. Bit of a dilemma for the store/publisher though. Are they supposed to accept it at face value when someone brings in their game and says "It doesn't work for me" or "There's something wrong with it - I didn't copy it, honest, and I don't have it loaded on my computer either"? (Although it would be interesting to see how many returns would occur if there were no DRM and you were allowed to return the game opened).

Potato chips/tv: the problem with the analogy is if you take the chips (or the tv) back, you no longer have the product, so you can't continue to eat the chips or watch the tv. So, even if you lie about the chips being stale or the tv not working for you, you no longer have it. With a game, you could easily leave it installed and take the disc back and say it doesn't work. Get your money back and go back home and play the game.

But what's the solution? I don't know, but I can imagine a lot of returns wouldn't be all that legitimate.

But what's your definition of a terrible game product? Issues getting the game running? Storyline you don't like? Controls you don't like? Graphics that don't appeal to you? I'd postulate that only the first is a reason why you should wish the company out of business. The rest is just personal taste. And do you honestly think that, DRM or no DRM, a company that makes crappy games (i.e. games that don't run) is going to stay in business? I don't. Word of mouth (or internet) is pretty powerful and I can't see a company that makes crappy games staying in business for very long.

Edit button: I've noticed it too. Must be a time limit on editing a post.

And Terraziel: that doesn't wash. Just because I don't like piracy doesn't mean I like measures to combat it. How many times do I have to say I don't like DRM. If piracy didn't exist, do you think it's likely we'd have to put up with the stupid bloody DRM in the first place?

Crap, I don't know if I've expressed myself the way I wanted to, but I'm running out of time.

Right, so your entire idealistic solution is for everybody to just get along essentially... thats not gonna happen, sadly. It would be nice, but has no hope.

The thing about returning the game opened, the analogy does pan. All they need is 1 cd key to prevent anyone from getting updates etc. If the game is returned, retailer X gives product code A and cd key A to company y and company y provides retailer X with a new cd key for product code A and disables cd key A for updates/online play/etc. Thats every bit of copy protection that would ever be needed/effective to solve that problem, everything else is hogwash. As a side note: Microsoft was doing this for YEARS with windows, and their new system has actually slowed adoption/support of their new OS(besides the fact that it just sucks), thus reducing sales. Of course lowering the price of their $500 OS would increase sales too, but apparently they don't realize that the only thing that got adoption of a new OS along so fast was because it was being pirated left right and center. Because honestly, if you have something that already works for you, do you really wanna dish out another $500 for something that may or may not work slightly better for you? I think not. Now if its free, or at least $100 or less on the other hand, you may be willing to give it a shot. Which is why they released the gimped version of vista. But most people aren't going to pay $100 for something they perceive as crap, whether or not it really is.

Terrible game product means I overall hated it. I don't care if its a matter of opinion, the game should be tailored for a large enough target audience that my returning my copy because I in particular hated it should not drive them out of business if they otherwise made a quality game. Like I said, you can do this with anything else, and for no other reason than that you don't like it.

Yeah, I know. But a guy can dream, right?



You know, that's a great idea. Still doesn't stop someone from keeping the game and playing a non-updated game (although it would toss a wrench in any on-line playing), but a good idea nonetheless. Make it so, Number One!

Another trick Earth 2160 did was after installation you validated the cd-key online with the companies server. Afterwards you got a activation number that was unique to your pc (randomized off the components you had installed like hard drive, graphics card etc..) that you could use down the road to activate if need be without having to go online again.

The beauty of this system was if you used a pirated cd key you couldn't authorize it with their server (they disable cd-keys that got an unreasonable number (5 or more) activations inside of a week) and because the authorization code was unique for each persons pc they couldn't use a pirated authorization code either.

Without being "activated" by the companies computer only the first chapter of the campaign was playable (about 13 missions more than enough to "test drive" the game) and a couple skirmish maps if I remember right.

To the best of my knowledge no one ever found a working "crack" to bypass this DRM either. (I bought the game legit but didn't feel like shelling out another $50 for a second cd-key just so I could play with my lover over LAN so hunted for a "solution" for a long time to no avail)

As a plus though they didn't require you have the cd in the drive to play, which is always a huge plus. (when you've got 15 or so games on your pc switching discs is a pain at best and damaging to the cd/dvd at worst.) Something fortunately more games are starting to do. (Such as Unreal III and Sins)

Hmm, thats strange, I just found a crack for Earth 2160 within about 5 mins, appears to work, don't have the game so can't check to be sure.

The online server authentication I don't like either. If I wanted to install malware on my computer I'd go to www.freexxxpron.com with 0 AV/fwall/etc, not buy a game. IIRC the phoning home thing was why I didn't buy the game in the first place. Never even bothered to download it, didn't want to risk actually liking it and wanting to buy it from a company who would actually have its game phone home for you to even be able to play. Not to mention that they usually write specific code in it to completely bypass any security software you have on your computer. Even having something like that on your computer opens new security holes. Not to mention that the guys finding a way around that software... well... now knows a way around that software. I'm sure most of them wouldn't do anything with it, but some might. Even if none of them did, they might tell someone about it who was smart enough to figure it out and would. :/

Thanks for the support of the idea I've had that idea sitting around forever. It wouldn't be overly difficult to implement either, and I have no idea whatsoever why companies don't do it. You'd really only have to set up an automated system that exchanges cd keys etc. Employees of the retailer wouldn't be able to abuse it really because the old cd key is disabled, and if they sell a copy with a cd key thats already disabled then that person can simply bring it back to them and they'll fix it. The only real cost would be server upkeep to handle the cd key swap proggy back end.

Aye I've found a half dozen cracks for earth 2160, unfortunately none of them work. (I spent the better part of a week trying various ones, uninstalling and reinstalling the game to no avail)

Smart idea you had though and though I respect Earth 2160 for ingenuity, although I don;t approve of their method or want to see it widely used.

bah, no edit button again, no more than 10 seconds, come on!!!


I forgot to add the development/updating cost of the software for doing the cd key swappage. Really tho, for a lot of software companies this would be an almost inconsequential addition at best in comparison to what they are currently paying for licensing fees on their DRM.

I would imagine it would be more than offset by the savings of not paying for DRM licensing - and possible increased sales.

Bah! Stop making sense. You'll be making a pirate out of me soon. Yarr!

Silveressa: if that activation number is tied to your PC (I assume in a similar fashion M$'s activation key), then would that mean you couldn't install it on a new rig, or would that just involve a new activation?

Aye, or if you change part of your pc's guts (like a new hard drive or dvd drive) and uninstall and reinstall you have to reactivate it.

I remember photoshop had this irritating habit of having to reactive it online if you changed your pc's components at all.

That reminds me of another rationalization behind piracy I've heard from more than a few people. Programs like photoshop or Poser 7 costing well over $500-$700. If I'm just using it for my own private amusement and not marketing my results in anyway then why should I have to pay hundreds of $ for a corporate license I don't even need? (or want)

Companies that deliberately inflate the cost of their product to a level where the private user has no hope of affording it just to they can milk the corporate users really does encourage people to pirate their products. (I didn't even pay $500 for my current dual core pc that's barely 2 months old, paying that much for a program really doesn't make much sense)And after pirating a $500 software program it's not much of a step for some to justify pirating pc games)

On a side note, It's really neat Stardock is letting us have this ongoing thread about piracy on their forums. In every other video game forum I've ever been on the second you mention the word "crack" or "torrent" let alone attempt to have meaningful discussion on piracy you wind up banned. (usually for life.)

That sucks. I hate that key tied to your hardware model. Although if re-activation isn't a big hassle, it's not that big a deal I guess (although it makes you wonder if you could just load the game on another machine and activate it on that one as well, and if so what's the use of the copy protection... I suppose you need two unique keys for multiplay though).

Yeah, that's a steep price for a program for personal use (I find too damned many commercial software products are way overpriced), although in the specific case of photoshop there is a free alternative available.

And aye, it's great of SD to let us have this thread. I've also seen these locked, buried and sanitized in short order on other forums.

yeah, a good photo editor if you don't wanna use photoshop is Gimp, little tiny bit harder to use, but it can do pretty much everything that photoshop can anyways.

It is extremely nice of SD to let us argue away. Though I think secretly they let us do it simply for frogboys amusement

Of course sometimes frogboys amusement is not so secret

You guys forgot to mention that several dozen people have openly admitted to pirating first then going legit and they still have active accounts here and even a few who have not gone legit as far as I can tell.

I have seen on other developers ANYONE that has admitted such action has been summarily banned and their license revoked. Talk about showing love for the converted and honest. With customer support policies like that it is no wonder many people have real issues with many developers.