Actually it's more like you buying a car, only there's a device hidden in the driver's seat that propels an iron spike through the body of whomever is in the seat if the car thinks you're NOT the original owner.

I buy a car, I'm going to do whatever I damn-well want with it. This still applies to every piece of software; "end-user licenses" can go straight to hell. I'm going to do what I want, when I want, however I want with something I bought. I'm not "leasing" software, because I never signed a lease agreement. It's mine.

The sad part is, PC developers want to turn the current system of buying software into a system of leasing software.

Stardock could release the worst game in existence, and it'd still be immensely popular due to the fact that people will buy the game on principal. We support the game developers who treat us like adults, rather than children. DRM is the fast-track to failure nowadays, especially after that Music Industry fiasco.

I'm going to have to agree and echo 1Spartan's opinions. I'd get more involved in this thread and elsewhere on the forums, but I've been under the weather for the past couple of days.

However, I want to bring to the discussion one major aspect that no one in the industry is talking about. This is something that everyone needs to be talking about though because it's getting out of control. That happens to be the cost of living. Yes, the cost of living. These are all the income, property, sales, and other taxes plus gas prices, grocery prices, housing costs, college tuition (if applicable), vehicle costs, and so on. All of these things you must pay to keep yourself afloat and out of bankruptcy and/or jail I'm blanketing under the cost of living. These have all been going up. Just recently my brother's college tuition and housing went up 7.13% just this year. The college I went to went up 4.25% this year too. Property taxes around here are also going up around 6% again. The price of gas is up over a dollar compared to this time last year. All of these things keep increasing and some developers/publishers (such as ID) have tried bold things like trying to push the price of their PC games up over $50. Some people run out of money after paying for all those bills, taxes, and gas and turn to piracy because that's the only way they can get to enjoy a product. Is this right? No, it's not. But today's world is a complex place where different markets, political organizations, and needs are all in conflict with each other. Everyone wants more and more of your time and money be it the government, oil companies, grocery stores, or even all these games that constantly get released.

Also, I don't see why THQ and Michael Fitch of ILE weren't going after the people who obviously pirated. Those people delivered themselves on a silver platter and it looks like NOTHING was done. Why not just make it obvious from the beginning that if people were pirating that crash was built into the software? It seems to me like they included that security check because they don't want people pirating the game, but then failed to bring it to light when it was negatively affecting their game. Obviously piracy could not be prevented so you need to shore up what you've got left and try to prevent discouraging potential future customers. The other companies running away to consoles are going to hit this same problem at the same strength in a few years as console piracy matures to the state PC piracy has evolved to.

@Dairuka - the entire "leasing" idea is one I'm completely against especially with the current cost of software across the board. Moreover if it comes to pass I will become the biggest enemy of the industry possible. I will look at it with as much regard that I have for the RIAA and its ilk.

However given there is an effort underway now to remove software patents and the likely follow-up would be restricting copyrights capacities I dont see leasing as a viable path if these things come to pass.

You've just contradicted yourself, saying that it doesn't have a single player mode, but it has Skirmish vs AI?

You'd be right if it said it didn't have a Campaign Mode... but I never play Campaigns anyways.

@ZJBDragon - Console pirating is already massive from what I can tell. So I would say it is approaching mature if not already there. With regards to your cost-of-living argument I have to concur. The greed factor is always visible in a capitalistic society and never more so then in America. Performance goals and the always increasing need for compound margins to illustrate "growth" and bonus pay (for an elite few) as well as improving share holder value are the driving forces and there is simply no end in sight short of a major social change or revolution. Regannomics is alive and well to be sure...

When companies are making billions of dollars in profits quarter on quarter year-in and year-out with no adjusted tax burden on such levels of income, there is something wrong with the system. The entire tax code (as well as the patent and copyrights systems) need a complete rewrite but that is unlikely given we have the best Congress that money can buy.

I find it laughable that they speak about pirates like they're the biggest problem the industry faces. How about publishers? I was in close contact with a Hungarian developer a few years back, and the "lead guy" of this company told me they get paid 5-7% of the game's PROFIT. Not even the game's sales, but the game's profit.

It's the same unconscionable story for music artists. The ONLY way they can make enough money to live off of is by touring! This is why you're starting to hear from major artists (who aren't afraid of repercussions from their publisher) that they don't care about piracy because it makes no difference to their bottom line.

Publishers are the cancer of today's media. Every form of today's media. Ever wonder why Stardock is not just staying alive but is actually thriving in a genre the rest of the industry has forgotten? It's because they actually keep most of the proceeds from their sales. They can price games at $20 and they would STILL make more money than a typical developer!

I don't know how Stardock or Valve deal with their digital distribution partners, but I really hope they aren't screwing them the way others do.

On the subject of DRM, I would like to join the crowd of people pointing out that there is absolutely no copyright protection that hasn't been broken in a matter of days. Not even weeks, but days. DRM is an inconvenience ONLY to "honest" customers and you will never find a pirate who says, "yeah they never broke the DRM on *x* so I had to buy it". Never, not in a million years, I'd bet a year's wages.

Just going to comment on that article and Sins in general.

On pirated/pirating games:

I get cracks for games I own - because frankly, cd checks and other protective shit REALLY irritate me. The fact that people pirate half-ass games not worth buying does not surprise me, or that people don't want to install shit like Starforce or a half dozen ugly things on their computer. If I wanted spyware I'd visit a Hacking/cRackz site with my antivirus off, thanks.

On that article and that moron:

I'm a tech savvy guy. I bought this game because it was DRM free - collectors edition even - and I'll never put the posters up or even stick the music cd in the drive - that was purely my way of donating to stardock, to the 'cause' (Support DRM-free!)

He says that most PC people are stupid? Darn right - but they aren't so stupid that they don't know to ask the tech savvy guys what to do/what not to do.

I'm the techie guy in my group of friends. I can point to... six. People who have bought this - simply because I told them it was worth it and it would have no additional hassle (DRM for instance, bugs, etc). No other reason. Just because they trust me on this. 4 of those people don't even PLAY strategy games normally - but they play this one, because its fun, we can burn a ton of hours and have fun and because its balanced for the most part (Reverie, Inertial field and LRM rush aside).

You want people to buy your games? Stop giving us the goddamn DRM ones. I support pirating a lot of games although I don't actually do it (I'm sure you've all heard that before but its true, I have an agreement with my housemate cause they're paranoid about about the government, RIAA and stuff (no movies, music etc either) (which is playing into their hands as far as I'm concerned but I gave my word sooo...).

Breakdown: I haven't pirated sins - I haven't let friends pirate sins (even the friends I don't live with although it is just their word on that). I do that out of respect, because its one of those games people should SUPPORT, a great game by a great developer - and without any goddamn DRM.

Most companies fail one of those three prerequisites - Their game is half baked (at best), the developer sucks (doesn't release patches etc), or they have insane protection.

You bring us a shitty game, shitty support or shitty protection and guess what! People won't buy your game! Shock!

To add to my previous post, if Stardock sold one copy of Galciv 2 at $40 through digital distribution, they would make the same amount of profit as another company selling 20 copies through a publisher at the same price.

In other words, if Stardock gets just 5,000 digital sales, they will have the same income as a developer who sells 100,000 copies through a publisher. Can you see why Stardock is triving in a tiny market segment (4X Strategy) while Crytek is in bad shape in a major market segment (FPS)?

Ironically, not only is Stardock making a killing despite having a fraction of the user base, they are also spending a fraction of the amount because they're making games that are designed for everyday computers! So, instead of 80% of their production costs being art design, they can spend a substantial amount on actually making the GAME.

This is also the reason you don't see very many significantly "different" games anymore. We live in a flood of FPSs, MMOs, and RPGs. To invest anything significant in making anything out of the ordinary and having it "look pretty" is just too big of a risk.

Too True Caydr, games are all about eye-candy, and no substance these days. Eye candy is good people but eye candy should be optional. If we can't run it on the average machine and not get choppy framerates, your doing something wrong - and if eyecandy is all you have... well... =_=.

P.S. Also to add to my earlier post, its also because WE ALL can play it that we bought Sins and encourage others to buy it (and considering some of our computers are 5+ yrs old, thats saying something).

It is as I posted in the other thread (which should be merged with this one):

The bottom line is this... If you respect the consumers and deliver a solid product, that is wanted at a reasonible price then they will respect you and purchase it.

It does not get any simpler then that despite all the hyperbole, pontificating and monologues as well as perceived rights, ownership and laws.

I agree 100%. Some games, like Full spectrum warrior, I can't even get to run at all with the original dvd/cd in the drive, it will time out, or say it can't read it or some other crap. I really have no choice but to get cd-cracks in order to play the games I already legally own.

Well, if you read correctly the EULA for Stardock's game (like the on in GC2), you will see that

You haven't bought a software but a license to use it

 

I would like to see a pirate start walking into stores and lifting games off the shelf.  That is a much less cowardly way to steal games

Also more of a excuse not to buy them after they got them (of course, there is no gray area for shoplifting like there is for digital piracy). Personally, I view torrent and torrent-like piracy top be more of a form of free advertising ad awareness spreading.

Free advertising for the act of piracy I suppose, but certainly not for buying the game. (Although I'm sure many pirates will use it as a justifying cognition to deal with their own cog. dissonance)

Not only that, but theft carries far less legal and financial penalties in the US even if you do it with a weapon. As it stands now infringement is a far worse crime anymore. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.....

This is really interesting, the Open letter form Michael pretty much show what happens when pirates do a bad job. Most people, when playing a bad pirate job, get a pore impression of the game. Thus, reducing its word of mouth. It could be said that "If they had no protection then the word of mouth of would of been better form the pirates." but who, in there right mind, could ask that?

Intransigent arguments are always this.

Do hard working, creative, people have a right to secure there intellectual properties?

The answer is yes.

Do consumers have rights? Do they have the right to not have intrusive programs and copy protections installed on there computers?

The answer is yes.

Sorry, but neither question and answer can be reconciled. At lest not yet.

Some personal commentary of my own:

I do not want to play games on a server - MMORPG are cool and they have there place. But I do not want to play all games on a server and have to pay sub-charges for every game I play. I do not want to have to pull out a ****ing CD and put it in my CD-Rom every time I want to play a game. I do not like consoles and I do not want to pay twice as much for games that have half the content and play time of a PC game. Not to mention how dumbed down they are to attract a broader audience. (not all but most)

PC games, companies, need to figure something out. Its not just piracy that is the problem. It's more than that. 90% people steal games for more reasons than just money. There is the hardware compatibly issues. There are hardly ever any demos. Why would I want to buy a game I never even tried? Will it even run on my computer. How come i have to spend $60 on a game but then have to spend $250 on an upgrade? If i want to run a game that looks like utter **** shouldn't that be my prerogative? STOP CATERING TO MICROSOFT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! Vista is a pile of elephant droppings after eating a can of chill that has sat out for 3 days. Don't support it or DX10!

Actually, when a game would come out with a new version of Starforce, it would usually take quite a while to crack in a way that was both easy and reliable. Most early cracks usually didn't work, were unstable, or caused MORE problems. Starforce was really pretty much the best copy protection out there, but that was mainly because of the way it operated.

The best copy-protection ever would be if it installed irremovable backdoor software that allowed developers complete access to your computer at any given time. And it'd be totally legal.

Given how many idiots think wiretapping American citizens is okay because "they have nothing to hide", I'm surprised we don't have that yet.

Craig Fraser (Canada) :



  I hope that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police's cyber-cops do not land on this webpage.

The RCMP is the Canadian equivalent of the American FBI (somewhat).

P.S. Feel free to delete (or edit) replies 39 & 45.

Ah, pet peeve here - downloading a game of of Pirate Bay isn't theft. It's also barely even copyright infringement.

Theft / Larceny means that someone lost for your gain. You STEAL money from a bank, the bank doesn't have that many (yes, it's insured, but whatever), and you have it. You STEAL a car, you're taking someone else's property and making it your own. Someone was directly affected negatively by your action.

When you walk into Best Buy an grab a game out of a box, Best Buy just took a loss for that game (I think they call it "shrink"). They paid Stardock for that game, so they in turn could sell it. When you take it, they can't sell it, and just LOST money.

There is no money lost over a torrent. If you claim that there is, you might as well point out that you can go onto Youtube, type in "Twilight Zone", and say that the 315,879 views it has right now are 315,879 lost sales.

Furthermore, 'copyright infringement' is a crock of shit, as most copyright infringement laws focus on reselling unauthorized reproductions or other means of making a profit. Copyright claims are made on damages, but how can there be any damages when no claim to monetary loss can be made, and no money ever changed hands? The NET act of the 70's is without a doubt one of the most absurd laws ever created. 5 years in prison and $250,000 fine, when there is absolutely no damages to be claimed by the plantiff? The AVERAGE sentence for rape is 5.4 years.RAPE. Civil suits for damages for rape offenses sometimes don't even reach $250,000.

Are you going to tell me that you'd rather someone get raped than have your game downloaded?

In an age of fascism, where laws are made by corporations, why should I obey?

Considering he said stealing, and not theft, I'm pretty sure he's not talking about the legal definitions, but the actual meanings of the words.

Going by actual definitions and common sense, I would definitely call downloading a game stealing.

Sins is also provided something most games are not, communication and support. BF2142 could have been a supreme game, but so many people had so many problems. I still can't get it to run on Vista, and their response to me was, "It was not designed for Vista..." blah blah.

Prices are going up, but when the service is there...no one notices.

They mean the same thing. Hell they even have the same definition and are synonyms of each other, if you want to get into semantics.

Definitions of stealing on the Web:

* larceny: the act of taking something from someone unlawfully; "the thieving is awful at Kennedy International"
* In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.
* To take or appropriate another's property without permission.

Definitions of theft on the Web:

* larceny: the act of taking something from someone unlawfully; "the thieving is awful at Kennedy International"
* In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.
* Wrongful taking of property with intent to permanently deprive the owner of possession.
* The act or an instance of stealing; larceny.
* The unlawful taking, carrying, leading, or riding away of property from the possession, or constructive possession, of another person.
* The wrongful taking of the property of another. It is a broad term and includes larceny, pilfering, hold-up, robbery and pick-pocketing.

If it was 'theft' and 'stealing' and 'common sense', why aren't pirates tried under any of those laws as well? Because it's not either of them. The plaintiff cannot prove any loss of property, because there was no property loss. Even if you steal from EB Games, Stardock cannot even make a case for 'theft' because they SOLD the title to EB Games - if you think about it, stealing from a store is BETTER for Stardock, because they already MADE their money.

If 'common sense' means 'a ridiculous lapse of logic', then I pray I lack it. That's like saying if my window is open and I step out of the shower it's "CLEARLY" a case of indecent exposure and it's just common sense that I should go to jail.

Fail harder please.

Clearly you didn't even read my post. I simply can't compete with someone who doesn't read my posts, so I'm just going to bow out and leave this thread.