Muggaz

Join Date 12/2003

Fascists and Kooks

we all bleed the same colour

“Maybe Rights are just more open minded than the left” – this has to be one of the most inflammatory remarks I have seen in my short blogging career! I found the comment on the JU feature page; you can read it here.

I am not going to shirk any issues here – unfortunately, the term fascist is all too easy to bandy about, I myself am guilty of brandishing the term upon some in a not in-frequent fashion, alas, I know they are not fascists in the true sense of the word, but it is ever so easy to integrate into any argument coming from the right.

The same can be said for the term ‘kook’ I believe it be can successfully argued that the term ‘kook’ has been dropped quite more substantially than the friendly ‘F’ word. How can it be so easy to align yourself with the left, when almost anything you say can be construed as ‘kook’ diatribe!

I try to keep my political activity to a minimum at JU – I am simply not in the same league as guys like Draginol, Greywar, or on the other side, Kingbee or Saint-Ying, however, I am very noticeably left, and I pride myself on my open mind.

When you assess people’s political leanings, and factionalise them accordingly, one side is always going to say the other has it easier. I won’t go so far as to say that those leaning to the right are closed minded, but I would like to question Karmagirls reasoning behind assuming supposed ignorance on the side of the left.

From my perspective – anyone from the right really struggles with broad and open thought. I am not so brash as to state they are not capable, but I sometimes find myself questioning their opinion, as it seems they discount so many factors when drawing their political conclusions.

This is what makes a place like JU so great. Would anyone bother reading arguments from the other side if they were so ‘closed minded’?

I would argue that those on the left would have more of an International concern. In today’s global climate, I suppose Karma can only assume how difficult it is to be on the ‘left’ because she is certainly on the right. If I can explain one thing about myself personally, and hopefully most of those inclined to the left, we don’t just rant and rave about people dieing, bombs being dropped etc… we generally care for the wellbeing of Humanity…

If the right think it’s easy to care about perceived injustice, then they are really more self centred than I thought, it just goes to prove why people are left, and why people are right. My interpretation based on these facts would be that the left are people who care about everyone, whereas the right simply care about their own personal agenda’s - which Karma correctly assumed.

Then again, we could both be wrong.

BAM!!!

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What happen to the suttleness?

Thomas

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FYI:

subtleness

IG

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

"but I would like to question Karmagirls reasoning behind assuming supposed ignorance on the side of the left."

The funny thing is- I am more liberal than I am conservative. People just assume that I am a conservative because *some* of my views are conservative.

If I were conservative, I wouldn't be pro-choice, as an example. People also assume that I will vote for Bush even though I have not stated as much. These people that I speak of are almost always (you guessed it) liberals. But, you just proved my point, so, thank you.

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The funny thing is- I am more liberal than I am conservative. People just assume that I am a conservative because *some* of my views are conservative.

It's interesting you should say that...

I guess you are one of the Silent Majority that Greywar was referring too... Are you afraid to show your liberal side? I wouldn't beleive that you are liberal for one second based on what I have seen you post... centralist, I could beleive, but you certainly aren't liberal, I can only go by what you have posted...

I would like you to prove me wrong

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KarmaGirl the 'Liberal'

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Why do you say I am not liberal? The only problems I have is with people thinking that the government should force charity. I have worked very hard for my money, and I think I should use it how I wish. I start my charity at home by helping people out who I know personally. In the past, I sold a $3,000 car to a co-worker for $500 and let him pay it off in 10 monthly installments. I gave a co-worker $50 for food when he first started out on his own because he didn't know how to budget. I donate clothes and other stuff to charities. I gave my brother in law a car because he needed one. I believe that charity is something that people who *can* do should do, but it should not be forced. I try to preserve nature around my own house, and I donate to WWF for global help. I donate to the local women's health clinic so that women without health insurance can get low cost or free medical attention. I have donated over 3 gallons of my o- blood because If I don't, who will? My parents wouldn't take money for watching my daughter, so I bought them a car to replace their rusting one so that they have reliable transportation. I do what I can, but on my own terms. I believe that if everyone would take care of their own circle, then we wouldn't need the government to step in and "care" for us because we are too stupid to do it ourselves.

But, people as yourself, assume that anyone who doesn't want to be taxed to death, or who can see both sides of the coin are conservative. I'm not really religious nor do I condemn people because of their religion or lack of, I'm pro-choice, I'm a "bunny hugger", I donate my money and my blood.... I *do* a lot to help people and our environment. How much more "progressive" should I be? Or, to be liberal, do I have to proclaim that the "government" should take care of me?

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

The problem with most overt liberals these days is that they seem very intolerant in any views that diverge from the master plan. That is, you can be liberal on 80% of the issues but if you're conservative in even a few key areas you get labeled a Right Wing nut.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

BTW, I don't think the person who wrote "The 3 types of Americans" can reasonably consider himself "open minded".

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Hence the problem. As I read both posts I am struck, as I generally am in these types of discussions that appear on this site, with the monochrome way people have of looking at what is liberal and what is conservative. Such things as “All liberals will do this. All conservatives will do this.” This is just not correct. As KarmaGirl pointed out a person can hold views that are both liberal and conservative. A person can be both pro-choice and still like the President. Or they can be anti-abortion and wish he would go back to the ranch.

It adds nothing to the discussion if liberals and conservatives are painted with such a broad brush.

IG

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

Reply #5 By: Muggaz - 6/2/2004 7:07:32 PM
KarmaGirl the 'Liberal'

Muggaz, if being a "liberal" is being "progressive" how progressive is it to rely on the government to solve all your problems? And, my "rant" was about people bitching but not *doing* anything. Maybe that is not a concept that you can comprehend?

That is, you can be liberal on 80% of the issues but if you're conservative in even a few key areas you get labeled a Right Wing nut.

True, especially if that 20% involves wanting to not be taxed to death to pay for the "poor me" crowd. Sorry, had too many professional welfare families in my family to believe that the government programs "help" society. Oops...I guess I must be "right wing"! My bad.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

It adds nothing to the discussion if liberals and conservatives are painted with such a broad brush

Tell somebody that you are a "liberal republican" and watch their head spin

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BTW, I don't think the person who wrote "The 3 types of Americans" can reasonably consider himself "open minded".

I have acknowledged that as a sweeping generalisation though... for the point of my argument, that was fine.

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It adds nothing to the discussion if liberals and conservatives are painted with such a broad brush.

Yeah - that was kind of my point - we all bleed the same colour, and to discount an opinion because of political leaning is dangerous indeed.

I am a fundamental conservative

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Well, I must apologise... in regards to people not doing anything, your stance came across as rather aggressive...

People will always have problems, if you read over the comment's in that thread, You were specifically stating that whinging was doing nothing.

Us ‘Liberals’

believe in the power of the people… and to quote Brad, whinging is the first action in a 4 stage process of getting something done…

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

It wasn't that you made a sweeping generalization per se, it's that you had very specific tyeps as if those were the only 3 types. Most people are a mix of types. You might as well have just entitled it as "Profiles of the people I like and don't like."

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Some views come across more clearly than others.

Draginol, for instance, might have lots of liberal views that he doesn't talk about much. But his political blogs tend to be about his views on Iraq, terrorism, and on taxation, and on all of these issues his views are distinctly conservative. His liberal views, whatever they might be, don't come across at all in his writing--the *only* time I've seen them brought up is when he's arguing that he's not really a conservative. I've never seen him make the case for the libera/Democratic position on *anything.* Not saying it hasn't happened--I don't even come close to reading everything on this forum--but if it does happen, it's much more rare than the reverse.

The same goes for KG, to a lesser extent.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

and to quote Brad, whinging is the first action in a 4 stage process of getting something done…

I thinking he said talking, not "whining". Most people who whine do nothing but whine. They want others to take care of them instead of working to take care of themselves. There is a difference. To say that I am conservative because I don't like people who whine but never do anything is a bit absurd, don't you think? I would think that liberals would want people to *do* things to help, not just whine that *others* should do things.

I've never seen him make the case for the libera/Democratic

That is because he is not a Democrat.

You don't have to be conservative to be a Republican. That is just another assumption that people make.

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Tell somebody that you are a "liberal republican" and watch their head spin

FYI, from 1872:

Liberal Republican Party,

insurgent reform wing of the U.S. Republican Party that challenged what it considered the corruption of President Ulysses S. Grant's administration by nominating a rival slate of candidates in the national election of November 1872. Led by such prominent Americans as senators Charles Sumner and Carl Schurz and editor Horace Greeley, the dissidents resisted Grant's renomination for the presidency, claiming that his first term in office was corrupt and inefficient. Meeting in Cincinnati, Ohio, in May 1872, the Liberal Republicans nominated Greeley for president and won the support of the Democratic Party by adopting a platform advocating governmental reform, particularly in the areas of civil service, lower tariffs, and a more conciliatory Reconstruction policy toward the South. Despite Democratic support, the Liberals were easily defeated by the regular Republican ticket in a climate of post-Civil War complacency and business prosperity. Grant was goaded, however, into advocating several of their proposals during his second term. Most of the Liberals rejoined the regular Republican Party by 1876.

IG

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That wasn't the case at all Brad...

Those are sincere generalisations based on my experience with Americans! I know most people are a mix of types, thats why I was careful to make the generalisations as broad as possible...

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Just so we are clear... I am also not a fan of people who do nothing but whinge... but just so you are clear, it's the discontentment among the masses is the first sign of change... your discontentment with excessive whinging, that just goes to show that you are happy with the current situation...

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

I was careful to make the generalisations as broad as possible...

Like broad generalizations are better? Oh, that made my day.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

your discontentment with excessive whinging, that just goes to show that you are happy with the current situation...

No, that shows that I am just sick of people whining. How many posts do you see that people talk about what they did to change something? No, you pretty but just see people whining and telling *other* people how they should do something about it. Sorry, I am somebody who does something when I think something is wrong. I have a very large dislike for whiners even if I agree with what they are whining about. Change comes from people *doing* something. Maybe I'm not liberal enough to appreciate the whining....

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Karma,

It was the only way I could get my point across... and like i have to spell out again, those are my sincere opinions of Americans.

Their are three types of Americans.... one i can deal with, another I love, and a third that drives me insane... and I pointed out why this was the case... being pedantic wont get you anywhere, just try and understand for one second...

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Change comes from people *doing* something. Maybe I'm not liberal enough to appreciate the whining....

I dont think appreciate was the right word, but yes, I dont think you are liberal enough to understand why some people are so aggreived.

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KarmaGirl

Join Date 03/2001

+118

I dont think you are liberal enough to understand why some people are so aggreived.

Then, I don't ever want to be that "liberal". I don't ever want to get to a point that I think it is OK for people to sit back and expect other people to fix what they see is "broken". If my car won't start, sitting on the curb complaining to everyone who walks by will do nothing. However, getting some tools and fixing it will help. Sure, I might need somebody to help me, but I don't expect them to do all the work. Maybe the fact that I actually do things to fix what I see wrong clouds my vision to the point that I can't see how whining does any good Now, if the discussion was over advocating, that is a different story. Advocates do things with the help of others. Whiners just whine and do nothing.

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