KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

This is a Values Test

Well here you go for those who didn't see this op-ed in the NY Times. It's the beginning of organizing the evangelical vote at a meeting in Salt Lake City. The purpose was to discuss what would happen if Giuliani or another GOP candidate who doesn't represent them is elected to be the nominee. It was titled "The Values Test."

by James C. Dobson, Ph.D., founder and chairman

Dr. Dobson says winning an election is important, but not at the expense of our core beliefs.

Reports have surfaced in the press about a meeting that occurred last Saturday in Salt Lake City involving more than 50 pro-family leaders. The purpose of the gathering was to discuss our response if both the Democratic and Republican Parties nominate standard-bearers who are supportive of abortion. Although I was neither the convener nor the moderator of the meeting, I’d like to offer several brief clarifications about its outcome and implications.

After two hours of deliberation, we voted on a resolution that can be summarized as follows: If neither of the two major political parties nominates an individual who pledges himself or herself to the sanctity of human life, we will join others in voting for a minor-party candidate. Those agreeing with the proposition were invited to stand. The result was almost unanimous.

The other issue discussed at length concerned the advisability of creating a third party if Democrats and Republicans do indeed abandon the sanctity of human life and other traditional family values. Though there was some support for the proposal, no consensus emerged.

Speaking personally, and not for the organization I represent or the other leaders gathered in Salt Lake City, I firmly believe that the selection of a president should begin with a recommitment to traditional moral values and beliefs. Those include the sanctity of human life, the institution of marriage, and other inviolable pro-family principles. Only after that determination is made can the acceptability of a nominee be assessed.

The other approach, which I find problematic, is to choose a candidate according to the likelihood of electoral success or failure. Polls don’t measure right and wrong; voting according to the possibility of winning or losing can lead directly to the compromise of one’s principles. In the present political climate, it could result in the abandonment of cherished beliefs that conservative Christians have promoted and defended for decades. Winning the presidential election is vitally important, but not at the expense of what we hold most dear.

One other clarification is germane, even though unrelated to the meeting in Salt Lake City. The secular news media has been reporting in recent months that the conservative Christian movement is hopelessly fractured and internally antagonistic. The Los Angeles Times reported on Monday, for example, that supporters of traditional family values are rapidly “splintering.” That is not true. The near unanimity in Salt Lake City is evidence of much greater harmony than supposed. Admittedly, differences of opinion exist among us about our choices for president.

That divergence is entirely reasonable, now just over a year before the national election. It is hardly indicative of a “splintering” of old alliances. If the major political parties decide to abandon conservative principles, the cohesion of pro-family advocates will be all too apparent in 2008.

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Congratulations, KFC. You and Dr. Dobson may be Hillary's greatest campaign allies! By making yourselves single issue candidates, you're virtually guaranteeing a split of the conservative vote.

I hope you'll be happy when she's elected!

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What we really need is a candidate that people would vote for instead of Hillary, that isn't a democrat.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Congratulations, KFC. You and Dr. Dobson may be Hillary's greatest campaign allies! By making yourselves single issue candidates, you're virtually guaranteeing a split of the conservative vote.

I will not vote against my conscience. I will not compromise my belief. I will continue to pray that I don't have to.

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I will not vote against my conscience. I will not compromise my belief.

Well, how about just NOT voting if you're going to split the vote and give Hillary the election? The way I see it, by splitting the vote, you and Dr. Dobson may help bring about a socialist state, then you'll sit back on your hands all sanctimonious like and decry the increasing lack of values...when you COULD have prevented it.

On the other hand, it WILL increase Dr. Dobson's listenership and book sales from "Christian" publishers...so it's all good, right?

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Gid,

Why do I get the feeling you're giving up? First off, we don't know who will be facing off with who right? So like I said, I'm hoping and praying we don't have to be in the middle of this situation of voting for the "lesser" of two evils.

I'm not giving up. I'm going to continue to "watch and pray."

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We're always going to be voting for the lesser of two evils. No one is righteous.

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Why do I get the feeling you're giving up?

Probably for the same reason I feel that you and Dobson are using political bullying tactics, demanding that anyone who doesn't march in lock-step with you is somehow not Christian enough. I guess we each have our own views.

I don't want a President who cares what homosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes. I don't want a President who will use a pregnant unwed mother as a political pawn. I want a President who feels that they should lead by example, not make more laws and tighten the nooses around our necks.

I do NOT feel the federal government should have the power that it has, and I WILL NOT support a President who feels it is their duty to INCREASE the federal government's stranglehold on the states. I KNOW the Constitution was written to assign many of these values to the states, and I want a President who knows that as well.

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I see this in every primary election season. There is a big deal made of the fact that the parties are fractured because no one can seem to rally around a specific candidate. Isn't that the point of the primaries? Aren't primaries about choosing between candidates of the same party running against each other? If you ask me, the though of a primary election where there isn't fractures within scares me a lot more.

More to the point though, I notice something pretty telling about the people at this meeting. While they all agreed to vote for someone other than a Republican if no candidate was against abortion, not one of the movers and shakers at the meeting as willing to stand up and announce his or her intent to run.

If the single issue voters want someone who they can rally around, why are they waiting for someone else to agree to their single issue? Why aren't any of their leaders running?

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see this in every primary election season.

Lest we forget, that is all it is, and not even that yet. Ihave held my nose before, and I will if need be again, but until next march, I can at least pull for my candidate without compromising anything.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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I want a President who feels that they should lead by example, not make more laws and tighten the nooses around our necks.

Well we're in agreement here Gid.

The laws for abortion and the homosexual rights are not pushed by the GOP in the first place. So to say I'd like a Prez who is against these things means, the laws in place are eradicated not substantiated. Si I guess I'm not getting your point here about the nooses around our necks. A pro life President and one that is values based is all about freeing us from such laws, not tightening the noose.

If the single issue voters want someone who they can rally around, why are they waiting for someone else to agree to their single issue? Why aren't any of their leaders running?

my question isn't so much that but "why don't they back Huckabee?" He seems to have all the qualifications they want so why not just throw their support behind him? He in reality is one of them. He's a former Southern Baptist Minister.

I feel that you and Dobson are using political bullying tactics, demanding that anyone who doesn't march in lock-step with you is somehow not Christian enough

Oh so now we're bullies because we dare have an opinion Gid? Who's demanding? I'm not. I just am stating I'm not going to vote against my conscience.

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Who's demanding?

Well, by asserting "I'M not compromising", you are implying that the rest of us ARE. Which is something I resent.

Is it direct bullying? No, it's bullying by peer pressure, the same bullying I got a few years back when I mentioned I wasn't voting, and my small group leader sneered and said "imagine if Bush won and NOBODY voted for him"!

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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"I'M not compromising", you are implying that the rest of us ARE. Which is something I resent.

well geeze Gid, can't you just honor that I'm sticking to my beliefs instead of thinking I'm somehow making you feel/look bad? Why choose the negative? I had no such thought when I said I will not compromise my beliefs. What you do is your business and I won't judge you one whit about what, who or when you choose to vote.

Tak about peer pressure!! What do you think we, who choose to honor our convictions, have? We are constantly being pressured to lower our standards. It's a continuing struggle.

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What do you think we, who choose to honor our convictions, have?

There it is again. I honor MY convictions, too, KFC. And I do it without lowering my standards.

The truth is, I feel there is a VERY dangerous candidate on the horizon. One who stands out as purely and wholly evil, as opposed to the rest of the field, who may compromise somewhat. I believe that if that individual wins, our nation as we know it will be gone and the true church will have to go underground. Yes, I believe it's that dire. And you and Dr. Dobson are talking about handing her the election to prove a political point. YES, that makes me sick beyond belief, because my country is only preceded in importance to me by my family and God, KFC. And I'm watching you talk about selling it down the river.

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I would give Hillary 4 years in office in order to cement the place of a third party that might actually do their job when elected, because if you give a third party credence in the current environment, you are going to get some serious third party votes in 2012.

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So you're willing to sell the country down the river for four years to bring that about?

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Do you really think she can destroy this country that thoroughly in four years, Gid? How will she do it?

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So you're willing to sell the country down the river for four years to bring that about?

Basically that's how these sillies roll.

Funny when you think about it. It simultaneously makes me laugh and cry, because I think this attitude is ridiculously unhelpful (which causes the gigglies), but I can see where it's leading - to the Clinton White House ver. 2.0 (which causes the tears).

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Is there anything she can do in those four years that can't be undone? I don't want her to run at all.

Politics suck. You can't even introduce a third candidate that you like, because then you're giving the election to the person most unlike you.

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Do you really think she can destroy this country that thoroughly in four years, Gid? How will she do it?

Well, all she needs to do is introduce legislation that basically creates a relationship between the US and EU member nations similar to what the EU member nations already has, and we will have lost national sovereignty. The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, a project Ms. Clinton has long endorsed, could be voted into US law, and at that point, the Christian church basically goes underground because taking your children to church would basically be religious indoctrination. And she has cronies in Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and their ilk to back her in this.

She could then further implement gun registration, essentially extending a ban not unlike that in SF to the nation at large. She could wipe out religious freedom in one fell swoop by subjecting us to mandatory physicians' visits under her mandatory health care. She could increase the size and scope of CPS and further advance the unConstitutional child theft that has gone on for so long. Do you think four years is an acceptable amount of time for a family to go without their child while the parents wait for the injustices to get rectified?

There's plenty Hillary can do, jythier, and I believe plenty she WILL do. But keep convincing yourself you're doing the right thing by voting for someone who only holds to your narrow interpretation of how politics should be run.

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Well, by asserting "I'M not compromising", you are implying that the rest of us ARE. Which is something I resent.

I dont read that. I dont hold the same views as KFC, so I know I am not commpromising, and never took her view to indicate I was. I know she would like me to beleive the same, but so far, she has not scowled at me for not following her beleifs.

I applaud her for her resolve. LIke you, I dont necessarily like it, but I would rather she not compromise and remain true to her core than to become just another hand me down in politics. After all, it is not my face or your face she sees in the mirror every morning.

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but I would rather she not compromise and remain true to her core than to become just another hand me down in politics.

I just think we will suffer far more than we realize if Hillary is elected.

We'll all sit around the porch saying "remember when we were FREE?"

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I just think we will suffer far more than we realize if Hillary is elected.

oh, I know that! But what I see with this campaign against Dobson and his followers is exactly what I dont like about the liberals. "My way or the high way". Yes, it will hurt a lot when they sit out and dont vote for Rudy or Mitt. But I would rather have them on my side, than a football stadium full of Kos or Sheehans.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

After all, it is not my face or your face she sees in the mirror every morning.

Geeeesh do we have to talk about faces, mirror and mornings? Not a pleasant subject....

We'll all sit around the porch saying "remember when we were FREE?"

aaawwwwhhhh com'on. I agree she's bad but there are checks and balances here. She's only got four years (this is not Cuba)if she EVEN gets in. Gah!! I hope not. Where's your faith Gid? Give it to God and let him deal with it...and her! No matter what happens it ain't over until HE says so.

remember when we were FREE?"

well look at it this way Gid, it could make for great song material....

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Just read this by Henry Blackaby and couldn't help but think of our subject matter here: He said:

"Do not place your hope in humanity, but steadfastly trust in the One who has already defeated your enemy."

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aaawwwwhhhh com'on. I agree she's bad but there are checks and balances here.

With a DEMOCRAT Congress, KFC? Nope. If she has a Democratic majority, she'll be able to pass everything she wants to.

She's only got four years (this is not Cuba)if she EVEN gets in.

Why do I keep hearing "It's ok, we'll just change all the laws once she's out of office? It's not that simple, folks. It is very rare that we get back liberties once we've surrendered them. And if we have made our government into an international government (as I believe will happen; Bill has long been lobbying for secretary generalship of the UN), it will not be so easy to undo.

Right now, KFC, THIS DAY, there are over 500,000 children in US foster care. Over 97% of their parents will never be criminally proven guilty of anything, yet only 44% of them will ever see their parents again. That's over 250,000 children surrendered to the system, who will grow up in a cycle of poverty, abuse, and death because abuse is more than twice as prevalent in the foster care system as in the homes of natural parents, and death is more than TEN TIMES more prevalent, Hillary and a Democratic congress will almost certainly expand that system.

And you say "what's four years?" Four years of having their children stripped away is a lifetime. It's the difference between an innocent grade schooler and a wrist cutting, promiscuous teen who has given up because they feel their parents don't care, as they don't see the true reason they're locked away in a foster care system.

You call yourself pro-life, KFC, and I believe you. But what about the lives of those children raised by Hillary's "village" because their parents couldn't afford to pay the electric bill?

Where's your faith Gid? Give it to God and let him deal with it...

Yup. There's that condescension again.

You just confirmed it. You're secretly hoping Hillary ushers in Armageddon. Good show.

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