Michael Vick Down for the Count?

"Michael Vick is a victim but not of the justice system, he's a victim of star power, and not knowing when it's acceptable to lose."

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Michael Vick is a perpetrator, not a victim of anything.

I don't know what the penalty is for running a dog fighting ring, and torturing and killing the dogs that don't do so well... but if he is pleading guilty to that... whatever the sentence is, Cry Havoc and Let Loose the Dogs of Justice!

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Michael Vick is a perpetrator, not a victim of anything.

I like that.  I can see both sides, but the Dan Greene side is the side of no responsibility.  The jythier side is "suck  it up like a man".  Unfortunately, most of today's society goes with the former.

He will be back.  Given the situation in the NFL, he will be playing for the Raiders in 09.  But until he does a Mea culpa, he will not have any respect from me.

I'll disagree with Dr Guy about when and where Vick pops back up (in the NFL) again.  I don't see him going to da' Raiders at all.  Not their style of QB, at least not while Al Davis controls things there.

He could come back as a running back I guess, as he has never proven himself to be that talented as a passer.  As a gimmicky RB sure.  'Slash' style (if people remember Kordell Stewart with the Steelers).

Most likely he comes back as a backup QB for some desperate team, or he gets a chance to play RB for an equally desperate team that doesn't mind designing some plays for him.  If some team tries that, assuming he gets out enough apologies to earn his chance at forgiveness, he may make a decent comeback.   As a backup QB he's not that valuable though, and likely won't see any sort of 'big money.'  If he somehow won a job by default, I still don't think he's all that valuable as a passer, which goes back to the idea that he remakes himself as a running back.  He's still fairly young, has good legs, and if he keeps himself in shape, could be useful in such a role.  If he pulls a Mike Tyson and leaves jail out of shape and without real desire to play, then he's done.

I'll disagree with Dr Guy about when and where Vick pops back up (in the NFL) again.

Yea?  And so's yours!

Tough crowd in here, don't let me sit with the crowd that is defending Vick. I am not a fan of his, but I give him some credit for both pleading guilty and facing the music for his crimes. If he is not guilty as he once stated to the effect he should be fighting this. It was not me but CNN that is making him out to be a victim.

When I say he is a victim of his star status, its because people without that status have the conscience complex that might prevent them from exercising animal killings for weak dog performance, or participating in this competition of my dog can kill your dog.

I sure as hell am not defending his actions. He should pay and is going to pay. His choice to be involved with this to any degree is despicable, deplorable, and undeniable as evidenced by the charges against him.

"the Dan Greene side is the side of no responsibility."

I see what you are saying Dr. but, Give Vick the credit for pleading guilty. He didn't try to fight this, knowing he is guilty, he didn't dodge responsibility. Granted he shouldn't have been involved at all, and nobody made the decision to participate in this in any way but Vick.

But whether you are willing to admit it or not there is a star status issue here that prevents people from making decisions correctly. Maybe victim is the wrong word to use, maybe product is better meaning wise. I don't know how to better articulate it. Certainly he is no victim of the justice system.

Star status does NOT impair decision making. Star status simply gives people access to things they would not have access to as a non-star, and a limelight to have all their sins thrown in the face of the world.

As for Vick, I think most people with star status know better than to do what he did. I think he did, too. Him owning up to it is a step in the right direction, for sure. It also shows that he knows he's not above the law with that star status, which is another thing stars have access to that the normal person doesn't.

Only after his co-defendants copped pleas. He was going to fight it out, unilt his lawyers said the game was over.

As for being a prisoner of his own fame, i can see that. Not being anyone of any note, I dont expect I will ever experience it, so I cant say "I know how it is".

And yes, it is the media that is making him out the victim, not you. I just used your name as stating that viewpoint. I did not mean to imply that you were the author of it.

"And yes, it is the media that is making him out the victim, not you. I just used your name as stating that viewpoint. I did not mean to imply that you were the author of it."

Thanks, cause I think he deserves exactly what he's going to get out of this.

"Star status does NOT impair decision making."

B.S. It's an accumulation thing, and also all in how you deal with it, consider the MTV channel. Does star status impair the decision making of the people on it, to say some of the outrageous stuff they do? How about any television production that is "reality based". Of course it impairs decision making. It is again all in how you deal with the status. Being a leader or role model or thug because you can.

Strange, I largely agree with you Whip when you say you don't have a problem with celebrities being made examples of. I also don't know of anyone who would assert a problem with celebrities being made examples of though.

The facts are that Vick is being charged with this, because he is involved not because he is a star and others say he did it.

You need to read what I write more carefully if you intend to comment intelligently because your comment here doesn't represent what I said accurately at all.

"you guys can prattle on all you want about the competitiveness of NFL members, and how no one else could possibly understand,"

What I said.
"people outside the NFL or professional sports might not fully understand the gravity of the meaning of competition for these guys."

The key difference is people might or might not, understand the meaning.

There are a few really disturbing factors in sports that would never be accepted in "the real world".

Not this year but last year or the year before, there was a player at the combine, who drank so much water, to up his weight at the weigh-in, that he accidentally urinated up on the stage during the weigh-in. People who are not under serious performance pressure do not do irrational things in order for the edge.

Players in Baseball, a large percentage, perhaps a majority, before effective measure were put into place, were drugging for "performance enhancement". People know and knew of this, yet ticket sales were up all during the years since the strikes.

Enter, Michael Vick, before this dogfighting scandal, a huge star in the NFL, and unfortunately, under huge performance pressure, and subject to instant recognition and star status everywhere, expected to be at the top of his game all the time, by the fans. The stars of professional sports, know what happens to players who don't perform, they get cut. From the perspective of some of the guys at the top, they look down at some of the guys they knew, see them living a day job that isn't the fantasy life of a career sports pro, in essence these players who dream their whole life of being a sports star, never get it to happen. They are discarded by society. Of course most make it, adjust, find new meaning and adventures but would you ask Tiger Woods, if Golf shut down if he would be devastated or could just walk away, or John Madden. If the NFL just shut down, or Madden couldn't be part of it anymore, would there be purpose for the competitive nature which dominates a sports super star. The mentality is no.

I'm not justifying or advocating it, I'm saying this mentality exists, and is supported and propped up every time we elevate anybody to a status above our own.

Mike Vick isn't a victim of sports but he is a product of it. He is a product of the star status and constant performance pressure. There are good and bad aspects to anything in life and we are peering into the bad of professional sports.

Now you tell me, how Michael Vick, in control and dominance of these dogs could not choose to cut them just as he would be cut if he didn't perform. I think the connection is easier than you think to make.

I certainly do not agree with Vick, dogfighting, (excluding aerial combat maneuvering in the simulator ) or elevated sports status of players, but it is a reality.

I have to hand it to you Whip, You are really good at kicking a person when they are down.

Strings of hate spew like...
"semi-retarded, vicious, greedy and violent ghetto negro"

Was that your 40+ year old cuteness again or you gonna try to pass that off as the random insult generator working on overdrive for you again?

Why don't you leave race out of it Whip?

That is beyond kicking a person when they are down and the fact that Vick is black, and the other defendants are two means NOTHING!

You go onto support your claim that Vick is a ghetto negro, and that...

"They're a dime a dozen in any inner city"

Really, Vick is from Newport News Virginia. A bustling city of under 200,000, hardly inner city. Wanna know what Newport News is really like?

"Newport News, known traditionally as a blue-collar industrial city, is currently undergoing dramatic changes to accommodate its growing affluence and relative significance as a major metropolitan nexus in the Hampton Roads region. The city's traditional downtown, located on the James River waterfront, is home to, almost exclusively, Northrop Grumman Newport News shipyard and municipal offices. While the downtown area has generally remained the only true area of the city that offered genuine urban layout, that is changing with the introduction of a number of successful New Urbanism projects in the city such as Port Warwick, named after the fictional city in William Styron's novel, Lie Down in Darkness. Port Warwick includes housing for everyone from the retired community to off campus housing for Christopher Newport University students. Also included are several high-end restaurants and upscale shopping."

It's a lot like Appleton except they build a lot of ships for the navy. Hardly the ghetto or inner city you seem to claim all violent ghetto negros come from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport_News%2C_Virginia#Demographics

You go onto say "dogfighting is pervasive in Virginia" and it probably is, so I guess white people participate too. Race doesn't belong in the argument, yet you bring it up.

As for violent, I can't find anything in Vick's history aside from the dogfighting to support your claim that he is violent. Of course dogfighting involves violence but so does football, and so does boxing. I'm not justifying the violence of dogfighting but I was expecting something a little more damning, like assault or rape charges, or something more shall we put it into terms you would use, "thugish".

There is no question that there is a problem in sports with people who do unethical and/or illegal things, because they can or think they can get away with it because of their star status. But its a prevalence which crosses racial boundaries. You should remember that. Criticism based on a persons actions is fair, based on who they are is not.

However you can say and believe whatever you want. Your hateful ranting here, there, everywhere, gives you away quite clearly though. You have an issue with people who aren't white. That's really too bad and you should consider working to change that.

"perpetuated by the above mentioned ghetto-dwellers and inbred, tobacco chewing hicks as well."

Little-whip can speak for herself, but I saw her hateful spew as against Vick specifically(who is, in fact, black, right?) and then dogfighters in general(of any creed and color, including tobacco chewing hicks, which I took to mean the white guys).

Did you also see it when she talked about how "Black people have it coming" in her response on the racist rant Michael Richards delivered that was caught on a cell phone and broad casted to the universe. Did you read her thoughts on how it is typical of black people always cause a disruption of public life.

How about when she uses the "N" word?

Yeah I guess you are right, she has an equal opportunity streak of hate spew but really does it add anything positive to the world? Certainly I don't think so.

I think it would be a different story if she was as careful with the facts, as she is ready willing and able to deliver a potent below the belt shot at people for who they are rather then the content of their character or their actions.

How about the Muslim Imams from Phoenix who were American citizens and deplaned for "suspicious" behavior. Hint hint, "terrorists" don't stick out, they blend in, until you hear the bomb blow up. But that doesn't matter if you aren't white, and you pray, and you read a Koran, have a few political views on the conviction of Saddam for crimes of war. I guess American citizens except disruptive Imams are allowed to exist in society above the white line and the rest of the minorities should just get out, do I have it about right Whip?

Yeah, no racial prejudice or hatred there.

"links would be appreciated too, in regards to your allegations against me"

Which allegations against you are you unfamiliar with the facts on?
I don't need to quote you from the past, people can read for themselves what you have written here and make a judgment.

Let the record show you chose to blacklist me, so if you want links, you spend the time researching the conversation we had before you blacklisted me. You are also writing on my blog here not yours. If you don't like my viewpoint, or opinion, you are welcome to take your comments elsewhere or keep them to yourself. You can flame all your want on your blog, without fear of hearing what I have to say, because I cannot post there, because you have chosen to censor me rather then debate ideas.

Why don't you face the issue you yourself have drawn attention to, your problem with race?

"quit making excuses for Vicks, it's disgusting."

I'm not making excuses, I don't condone or accept his conduct. I do however aim to explain it away as more than...

"semi-retarded, vicious, greedy and violent ghetto negro who knew how to play ball. They're a dime a dozen in any inner city,".

When I said Vick is a victim that is incorrect, he's a product of a society that aids in elevating certain people above and beyond the general population. If you deny that to be true which maybe you don't but if you do, why acknowledge the "celebrity" of Lindsey Lohan in your response?

People make mistakes, Vick has confessed that this was a mistake, must we now judge him as a "semi-retarded, vicious, greedy and violent ghetto negro who knew how to play ball." for the rest of his life?

He is pleading guilty, accepting responsibility for this crimes, he has already paid a price in the form of lost sponsorships, he will probably serve jail time for his actions, and he may have a career terminated. Once he has done his time and paid his debt to society and made amends I will choose to look at him as another human being just like I did before he was charged.

You can choose to do that or continue to hold the opinion that he is a "semi-retarded, vicious, greedy and violent ghetto negro who knew how to play ball." and that "They're a dime a dozen in any inner city,".

Your words speak for themselves.

"quit your whining already. It's unmanly and unattractive."

I'm sorry your blacklist feature is broken. I wasn't whining, just stating fact. I'm not here to impress you or attract you, or make you think I am more manly. I have no more need to prove value to you than I do to the dark side of the moon. I am here to practice tightening up my writing, and offer interesting conversation, opinions and to learn about things I do not know enough of.

"Would it make you feel better if I described Vicks as a "semi-retarded, vicious, greedy, and violent ghetto escapee who knew how to play ball?" I mean, in your world it's a sin to even notice race, and a bigger sin to mention it!"

I guess if the statement was mostly factual sure. Vick isn't from a ghetto anymore than I am from a ghetto. He isn't any more greedy than the next man or woman. All NFL football players with talent have been able to take advantage of mega money sponsorships and contracts. When people want you to just smile for the cameras and pay you millions, thats not individual greed. it's corporate greed. Granted he didn't say no, but would you or I?


Getting back to the topic you keep avoiding...

You did choose to use racial slurs right? You did advocate that we deny American citizens the right to travel on airplanes if they are Muslim. You did make statements to the effect that black people bring upon themselves racial discrimination. You did suggest we should kill anyone we want in Iraq regardless of whether they are terrorist or not. When I called you on some of these things you didn't want to deal with it. You did choose to censor, right or am I wrong about that?

You seem either to forget this, or think it unimportant. If you have a point to make, you are welcome to post. I don't write on here often, when I do its largely whim, not need. However I really don't appreciate racist dogma and you telling me I have a double standard without specifying what it is.

Do as you please Whip, you always have, you always will. The one article I wrote that I expected a word or two on from you, was ignored by you. Since then I haven't followed anything you write. I'm not embarrassed to say it is because I consider you, as a source to not have the credibility or integrity, worthy of consideration.

You have it within you to change my view on what you write by backing up your words with facts, treating others as equals rather than textual punching bags, leaving racial slurs out of the conversation, not engaging in personal attacks, and sticking to the issue in the threads original post when applicable.

Based on the fact that you have posted nearly three times as often as anybody else, and that it is pretty clear you really don't care about this issue at all, I am left to conclude that all you want is to stir the pot with me.

That's fine, but lets have a conversation of some substance and not one of stereotyping, prejudice, and racist characterization of a person rather than their actions.

If thats ok with you Whip?

"Since when did 'negroe' become a racial slur? "

I didn't say negro was a racial slur. I said you have used racial slurs in the past, the N word for example. (not negroe)

"I will leave you with this to chew on, however, Vick's has done more damage to his racial brethren, done more to perpetuate the very stereotypes I've voiced here, than any mere reference to 'ghetto negroes' made by a white, middle-aged hausfrau ever could."

That doesn't excuse your use of racial slurs, censorship, or saying things that aren't true and claiming them as fact.

The plea/summary of facts, an affidavit signed by Vick clearly show that he began a sophisticated kennel operation, with the purpose of training Dogs to fight in 2001. They used treadmills similarly to how players use a weight room to train. They had pre-fight fights, to gauge aggressive versus weaker dogs, Similar to how teams practice before games.

Rather than sell the land to another of the group of the dogfighting clan, Vick held onto it against the will of his father, who knew of the situation and urged Vick to offload the property so it would not cost him his career. But of course #1 pick Michael Vick was "top dog" then and "top dog" when it came time to make a logical choice to protect himself from investigators.

Of course the real decision was to be involved in this at all. But when you become a star nobody can tell you what to do. If he had made that decision earlier in his life, before he got to Virginia Tech and was involved in this way back then we probably wouldn't even know Vick, because football teams stay away from trouble at key and irreplaceable posistions, like head coach, GM, and QB.

It was the dark side of the elevated star status, the money, the power to use that money on whatever, the belief that you will never get caught.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/082407_vick2.pdf
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/082407_vick.pdf

"Oh, and just for your edification, Vicks DID grow up in public housing, (aka 'the ghetto') in Newport News, Virginia"

Whatever, the 33rd most populous metro area in the nation is no inner city.

"You certainly put a lot of words in my mouth, Dan. I never said Vick was from the inner city, I called him a ghetto negro. The only mention I made of 'inner city' is that talented, underpriviledged, athletic kids are a 'dime a dozen' and can be 'found in any inner city.' Vick can be replaced, and hopefully with someone equally talented but with more of a moral compass than he seems to have."

It's stuff like this what just proves the point.

You win Whip I'm not spending my Saturday teaching you to be polite or not a racist. It's just going to be the same BS from you forever, I've already said that too.

For as much citing of your words as I do it's deplorable the way you seem fit to demonstrate the way "I'm making excused for him".

I'm not wasting my Sat doing this and maybe you should consider why you value spending so much of your time having to do this.

Nor do I intend to respond to anymore of your comments here. Thank you for your repeated comments, but they are not of the type I choose to dignify with a response.
Call me what you will, coward, unmanly, a whiner, but remember you are the one that consistently chooses to make an issue more than it is.

Go play with some kids Whip, evidently I'm a still a little more of an adult than you.

Just a simple question dan, if you had to describe Mr. Vick to the Police how would you go about that?

#7 for the Atlanta Falcons, of course!

LOL!

aha! but you see this cop is a hockey fan and knows nothing about football.

Modman, ever been to a Thrashers game?

I don't watch sports either in person or on television except for the occasional playoff game in foot ball or baseball if the Yankees are playing. so the answer to your question is no, not only is it no but WTF is a thrasher?


BTW I am still waiting for the description of Mr. Vick that Dan would give to the police man that is not a football fan.

Thrashers are birds, the state bird of Georgia, and the Atlanta hockey team.

"BTW I am still waiting for the description of Mr. Vick that Dan would give to the police man that is not a football fan."

He's a criminal. I'm not defending his actions, I'm saying society has a role here, which is elevating these players above citizens, similar to the gladiators or Rome.

Call it the "Remember the Titans" mentality. What people do on a sports field is memorable and in some ways great, but doesn't excuse criminal action, of course which is not what I am advocating or the argument or information I have tried to add to the discussion to the best of my ability. Whip and a few others have tried to mis characterize my perspective but let the truth be known I am a football fan but more of a baseball fan.

Either way, I am troubled by the idea that that excludes me from making a fair and objective look at the situation. I have never been a Vick fan, nor a Falcon's fan.

Equally troubling is people's rush to judge without facts, and without knowing the whole story. Before Vick even pleaded or was put on trial he was already convicted by actions which were accused. Well that's not how our justice system is setup. It sure seems like the court of public opinion is. For the people who watch sports it's almost like a second hobby, hating the players when they get into trouble.

"BTW I am still waiting for the description of Mr. Vick that Dan would give to the police man that is not a football fan."

What description would you have someone give you of him? I've tried to provide as much backup info on Vick as I could in describing the situation, much of it supported by fact.

"Typical Dan, when required to back up his assertions, when asked direct questions, when proven wrong, he just runs, runs away."

I said I wasn't going to piss away a beautiful Saturday to debate with you like I'm stuck in a universe with no other objective right Whip? Grow up. It would be equally typical that you bring race into a discussion merely because a minority is involved, for no reason. I choose to point that out, and it's irrelevance. When it becomes moot and irrelevant to even discuss it to further extent. I am suggested by you as weak, and whiny. I object to your comments because you do not debate or discuss fairly.

So what if Vick is black?
So what if he is from a housing project? So what if it's a ghetto?

Even if everything you say is entirely true, including the semi-retarded part, is it crucial to the discussion or is it just piling on negatives which you are so good at Whip?

Why can't we just call them 'brown'? Or 'well tanned'?