MarcusCardiff MarcusCardiff

God gave us thought

God gave us thought

I am an athiest but I ask a question of God

God gave us thought and Intelligence.
God wanted us to think and improve our knowledge,
God has faith in his creation.

We will forever increase our understanding.
we will eventually know all there is to know.
It is the nature of intellect to ever increase knowledge.
then this is inevitable

So man will become Gods?, know all that it is possible to know,
Be omnipotent, eventually?

Is this true or is God playing a practical joke?

Has God put in limits to our learning.

Does god play tricks?

Or are we truly smart and does God need a holiday.

Marcus
154,571 views 199 replies
Reply #51 Top
I was an angnostic for 25 years then a confirmed atheist for 15 years, and a born-again Christian for 4 years. Believe me, God does exist. Just look around. You think all this (the total of existence) came from nothing? Even I don't have that much faith. Hope you find what you're looking for, but you won't find it in Man ... that's a guarantee From a former Randian (as in Ayn)


I have no interest in being converted myself, but I am very interested in what drove you from atheism to Christianity. More often it's the other way around, at least in my experience. Mind telling us what made you go that route? I'm interested in the logical process (if applicable), rather than in hearing your "testament" or "witness" or whatever born-agains call it. Thanks, if you're willing.

Not a big fan of Ayn Rand, but I have to say that a lot of her followers seem rather religious themselves, despite her own beliefs on the matter of god. Fascinating person, even if I find some of her philosophy to be reprehensible.
Reply #52 Top
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was making the world believe he does not exist"


this is true

but he is trying to out do himself by making god disappear


congress shall pass no law putting one religion over another. Yet they have done so.

the way i see it non-religion is a religion a belief in nothing.
Reply #53 Top
Well, since none of us can prove anything, we each must have faith in something.


Even if it is nothing at all.
Reply #54 Top
Well, since none of us can prove anything, we each must have faith in something.


Even if it is nothing at all.




true but why are they trying to force their belief on me
Reply #55 Top
Danielost, are they any different than Christians or Muslims trying to 'force' their own belief on anyone?

They are trying to convey to you what they believe, and why.
No difference, as far as I can tell.

Personally, I do not try to force.
I may, at times, try to convince though.

In present day times, Christians (for the most part) try to convince (which is different in tact from the force used in the past by 'us').
Muslims are more into force (which is in strict accordance with the Qur'an).
Atheists and agnostics are, as well, into convincing - again, for the most part.


We are in a fallen and evil world, Daniel.
All we can hope to do, is hold up our end as best we can - and in accordance with the Lord's wishes.
Reply #56 Top
at the moment Christians and Muslims do not have the congress passing laws to force their religion on anyone.
Reply #57 Top
At the moment, the President is sucking up to the Muslim's - big time.

Reply #58 Top
If you are an atheist, you can't ask a question from a non-existant entity. Sounds like you are more of an agnostic. Or maybe you are an anti-theist, hehe...
Reply #59 Top
I highly doubt that the thread creator is an atheist.

I mean, what's the point in asking questions to a made up being in which you don't even believe?

Or even debating things about nonexistent stuff?


i've been participating in Marcus' other discussion about atheism, and i can assure you he seems like a staunch atheist to me. my guess is that he wanted to learn about religious people, not religion itself: i think he wants to know about the ways in which religion can lead individuals either to self-empowerment or timidity. he's not asking the questions of God, he's asking them of God's followers. but i could very well be wrong; maybe he's on the verge of a religious awakening. but my sense is otherwise.

Not a big fan of Ayn Rand, but I have to say that a lot of her followers seem rather religious themselves, despite her own beliefs on the matter of god. Fascinating person, even if I find some of her philosophy to be reprehensible.


i'll drink to that!

true but why are they trying to force their belief on me


daniel, what makes you feel like another religion's being forced on you, if you don't mind my asking?
Reply #60 Top
try saying under god in a federal building

try saying a prayer out loud in a school

try to read the ten commandments at a court house.
Reply #61 Top
try saying under god in a federal building

try saying a prayer out loud in a school

try to read the ten commandments at a court house.


so it's not so much that a particular religion is being force on you, but rather that the religion you're familiar with is being systematically removed from government. all the money still says, "in god we trust." the pledge of allegence still says, "under god." on the other hand, it's not like anywhere in the government you'll find a document or anyting that says, "America affirms that God doesn't exist."

and i don't see that congress is trying to "make god disappear." to put it in a more jarring turn of phrase, they're trying to put him back in his proper place - the church. is it really that hard for you to see that all that god jargon everywhere can make atheists (as well as Jews, Muslims, and the multitude of other relgions represented in american citizens) feel like christianity is being forced on us?

if atheism were being forced on you, the dollar might read "in physics we trust." the pledge might go, "...one nation, under a giant ball of fusion-powered gas, indivisible, with liberty and justice for anyone that actually exists."

maybe the fact that evolution is a standard part of science education is a sign for you, but i had to learn about different religious beliefs as early as 6th grade as a part of history, and i revisited the topic of religion far more frequently than evolution in the following years.

in education, it's a matter of intellectual breadth. in government, it's a matter of non-partisanship. neither is force. the government is being de-christianized and secularized, but that doesn't mean it's being atheized. secular means 'separate from religion,' not 'against religion.' if you feel like something's being forced on you, perhaps that's an issue to discuss with a spiritual teacher or confidant (priest or minister, a parent or good friend... anyone you trust to 'get you' on a spiritual level).

but that's just my view of things.
Reply #62 Top
i believe i am unique on this planet

i believe in creationism and evolution


too explain Noah couldn't not have saved all the land animals currently on the planet.

but all of the land animals fall into a small group of animals and Noah could have saved that small group.

and remember the swimmers wouldn't have needed to be saved.


but god created the small group of animals and made it possible for them to evolve into the animals on the planet at this time.
Reply #63 Top

i believe i am unique on this planet

i believe in creationism and evolution


too explain Noah couldn't not have saved all the land animals currently on the planet.

but all of the land animals fall into a small group of animals and Noah could have saved that small group.

and remember the swimmers wouldn't have needed to be saved.


but god created the small group of animals and made it possible for them to evolve into the animals on the planet at this time.


Riiiiiiiiiight.
So there was a small number of animals on the ark, and they in turn evolved into the huge almost endless variety of what we have now, in about 6000 years?

That's about as dumb as the main creationist argument frankly.
Honestly, if one of my friends said that, i'd laugh and ridicule them until they saw sense. However, many of the people that buy into that stupid idea would probably be more than happy to use violence and intimidation to force their view.
Really, Creationists believe the world is like 6000 years old, so when did Noah build the ark? A week last tuesday? 10 years ago?

Creationists deserve nothing but scorn and disgust, they are no better than fundamental Muslims, and other conservative faith nuts. I'm not one for intolerance, but some types of people simply deserve it.
Reply #64 Top
excuse me there was a sparrow type in the golupcal islands(the islands that darwin discovered evolution) that filled in a specific food chain. It died out the other two types of sparrows that lived on the island. according to scientists would take 100 years to fill that niche. It only took them 7 years
Reply #65 Top
there was a war before the earth was made physical and there were be a final war at the end of the 1000 years of peace.

don't get that war mixed up with the war just before christ returns.


If I remember correctly, the war you mention is from other sources - and although they may provide some helpful information, they are not considered have the same weight as the canonical books.

You guys seriously have to get over taking the bible too literally! You should know by now that God speaks in parables - Jesus showed us that in no uncertain terms!


Agreed. In fact, the Bible has many styles of writing - Genesis tends to be historical, Psalms is poetry, Proverbs is wisdom, and Revelation is prophetical. Revelation does indeed contain a lot of symbolism.

It is rather unfortunate that people want to ignore that aspect and pretend the Bible is either all literal or all symbolic. It is neither. It contains both literal and symbolic.

"johnwink" - you are not alone, BTW. Check out ex-atheist.com for somebody else who used to be an atheist and became Christian .

So there was a small number of animals on the ark, and they in turn evolved into the huge almost endless variety of what we have now, in about 6000 years?


There was a rather large variety, and all of the information required for most of the traits we see today was already built into the animals in the ark.

Species that contain a large gene pool can actually change quite rapidly - this rapid change has been observed, and danielist has provided one of many examples.

Note, however, that this is selecting from an existing pool of information: If the pool is divided, the resulting animals have lost much of their ability to change further. There are limits: You can only go so far before the animal won't change any further. This decrease in genetic diversity can be observed in controlled conditions in a laboratory with species with short life spans, such as fruit flies or bacteria.

Mendel and Punnett both observed this, and came up with explanations for this: There are dominant and recessive alleles, and they combine together to for the phenotype we observe. Their basic principles still hold today, although they have been extended by our understanding of DNA and shown to be incredibly more complex than anybody imagined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square
http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

As you can see, traits are not produced out of thin air: Although these are only simple examples, they show that there are only so many of traits, and a limited number of ways to combine them. The idea that "evolution" can easily go infinitely in any direction is false.

I'm not one for intolerance, but some types of people simply deserve it.


I am sorry to hear that. It's sad to see that closed minds are everywhere, not just in religious people.
Reply #66 Top
Note, however, that this is selecting from an existing pool of information: If the pool is divided, the resulting animals have lost much of their ability to change further. There are limits: You can only go so far before the animal won't change any further. This decrease in genetic diversity can be observed in controlled conditions in a laboratory with species with short life spans, such as fruit flies or bacteria.


i can point to one mistake that noah made.

cheetahs: all cheetahs are clones of each other. ie they all have the exact same genes. except of course for male and female genes.
Reply #67 Top
Creationists deserve nothing but scorn and disgust, they are no better than fundamental Muslims, and other conservative faith nuts. I'm not one for intolerance, but some types of people simply deserve it.


that's unfair and untrue, and you've placed yourself on the same level as them by proscribing mistreatment.

golupcal


i think you mean the Galapagos islands.

There was a rather large variety, and all of the information required for most of the traits we see today was already built into the animals in the ark.

Species that contain a large gene pool can actually change quite rapidly - this rapid change has been observed, and danielist has provided one of many examples.

Note, however, that this is selecting from an existing pool of information: If the pool is divided, the resulting animals have lost much of their ability to change further. There are limits: You can only go so far before the animal won't change any further. This decrease in genetic diversity can be observed in controlled conditions in a laboratory with species with short life spans, such as fruit flies or bacteria.


exactly; you're talking about bottlenecks, in this hypothetical case at least. the idea that the animals on the ark repopulated the earth's land, and furthermore evolved into the animal variety we see today, is ludicrous to anyone who understands the genetics of sexual reproduction. a male and a female aren't enough to repopulate a species, and having only 2 samples reduces genetic variaion to the point that evolution would slow to a near standstill until enough chance mutation had accumulated to reintroduce substantive genetic variation. 6,000 years is probably not enough time for such mutations to build up and proliferate. besides all that, there's the simple question: what would the predators have been eating? did they take an evolutionary side-trek and adapt to eating fish until the land had been repopulated, only to evolve back into hunting land animals -- all in the span of five to six thousand years? even if they could do that, what would the first adults coming off the ark have eaten? did they switch to plants (that miraculously survived the flood)?

evolution can happen very quickly, and as you point out there are many documented cases of it. the pre-cambrian explosion is probably the most prolific and obvious among them. contemporary evolutionary geneticists are finding that evolution can proceed much more rapidly than previously thought, and the reasons aren't totally understood. part of it has to do with the relationship between simple instructional genes and meta-controllers (genes that affect the control of other genets). if the two were equal (if all genes exerted influence on other genes) evolution wouldn't be possible. if there were no meta-genes, however, evolution would be choatic and aimless. the ratio between those genes varies by species, and the most rapidally and thus adaptable species (humans aside) have the lowest possible number of meta-genes they can have without crossing a threshold into evolutionary anomie.

rapid enviornmental change can lead to rapid evolution among a percentage of living species; it just depends on whether or not that species has the latent genetic variation to survive in the new environments and whether or not environmental interaction can bring out useful traits in the genes they already have.

cheetahs: all cheetahs are clones of each other. ie they all have the exact same genes. except of course for male and female genes.


sorry daniel, but you've reversed cause and effect. cheetahs have low genetic variation (but they do NOT have identical genes) mostly because they've been driven to the brink of extinction and because of their unusual mating patterns. humans have also been trying to domesticate them for millenia, which may have had an effect on their genetic variation.

here's an article that explains in better clarity what you're talking about: Low Genetic Variation on evolution.berkeley.edu.
Reply #68 Top
i do have an answer for you as to what the preditors could have eaten.

rabbits, mice, and rats.

show me a land prediter that doesn't eat at least one of those

rabbits, and mice and rats. can have a litter every other month.

and since they were on the ark for almost a year.

how many rabbits, mice, and rats could there have been.

as for the cheetah if noah picked a brother and sister with identical genes that is where you get the cheetah problem.

and the cheetah is starting to change finally. ever heard of the king cheetah.

Reply #69 Top
i can point to one mistake that noah made.

cheetahs: all cheetahs are clones of each other. ie they all have the exact same genes. except of course for male and female genes.


IMHO, that was probably due to factors that happened after the flood, rather than at the flood. It's generally believed that God chose the animals to be included in the ark, rather than Noah himself.

In this case, I think dystopic has the right idea.

the idea that the animals on the ark repopulated the earth's land, and furthermore evolved into the animal variety we see today, is ludicrous to anyone who understands the genetics of sexual reproduction.


Is it? In terms of mendel's genetics, you grab one parent with all dominanat and another with all recessive genes (or with a mixture where the dominant and recessive overlap), and you have the potential to create all the variability you need, with no need to rely on mutations. In addition, seven pairs of many types of animals were bought to the Ark, rather than just a single pair.

besides all that, there's the simple question: what would the predators have been eating?


Well, I dunno how many supplies Noah bought on his trip; it's possible he could've bought some extra supplies for after the flood was over as well as the flood itself. He had plenty of time to plan this out.

In addition, we know that many species are now extinct, including dinosaurs - it's possible there was indeed a mass extinction soon after the flood was over.

It's also possible that the diets of the animals on the ark were much less exclusive than the diets of modern animals, and that specialization came later due to environmental and genetic pressures.

Creationists do not deny genetic variation itself - we just deny that it can accumulate infinitely in any direction.

The word "evolution" disguises this by throwing a HUGE umbrella over many different mechanisms and pretending that proving one specific mechanism proves everything.
Reply #70 Top
show me a land prediter that doesn't eat at least one of those
rabbits, and mice and rats. can have a litter every other month.
and since they were on the ark for almost a year.
how many rabbits, mice, and rats could there have been.


a litter of fully grown rabbits wouldn't feed a lion for more than a day or two, assuming the lion immediately went to sleep.

Is it? In terms of mendel's genetics, you grab one parent with all dominanat and another with all recessive genes (or with a mixture where the dominant and recessive overlap), and you have the potential to create all the variability you need, with no need to rely on mutations. In addition, seven pairs of many types of animals were bought to the Ark, rather than just a single pair.


yes, i'm sorry to say it is. for starters, variation is not binary. two specimens with completely different chormosomes cannot represent the full spectrum of variation of most traits in a species. take human eye color. brown/black is the typical dominant. but green, blue, grey, and amber are all possible. one individual cannot carry the genes for all four of those recessive traits (especially because most recessive traits require dual-pairing of the gene from both parents). so even if the father of all of us had brown and blue, and the mother, green and gray, we're still short one chormosonal variance (amber). maybe Noah did the horizontal mambo as well and God just decided to leave that part out of the bible?

In addition, we know that many species are now extinct, including dinosaurs - it's possible there was indeed a mass extinction soon after the flood was over.


so you're telling me that one single guy, using stone or bronze age technology, built a ship strong enough to maintain bouyancy of not only two (or 14) of every dinosaur and other animal, but also the food it'd take to feed them for a year? i suppose if god draws up the blueprints for you, sure. but i think one person (or did Noah use the man and woman he brought as cheap labor?) would be able to construct such a monstrosity in a single lifetime.

Creationists do not deny genetic variation itself


never said they did.

we just deny that it can accumulate infinitely in any direction


i don't believe that evolutionary biologists claim this at all. many of them actually emphasize how severely limited evolutionary change is in most cases. that's why it's taken millions of years to arrive at the plethora of life we have today. if life could evolve in any direction, we'd probably be a helluva lot smarter today than we are, but our brain size is severely limited by the size of the birth canal, for example, and a lot of such biologists suspect we've maxed out our intelligence already because neither the brain, skull, nor birth canal can anatomically stand to get much bigger.

The word "evolution" disguises this by throwing a HUGE umbrella over many different mechanisms and pretending that proving one specific mechanism proves everything.


i can't reply to this as well or certainly as i'd like because you didn't directly specify what mechanisms you're talking about. so hopefully this isn't a non-sequitor. it seems like you're referring to 'genetic variation', but evolutionary biologists don't cite genetic variation as evidence. they view it as part of the mechanism of evolution itself.

they cite fossil evidence and homology as the biggest (but not exclusive) bodies of evidence. see: Lines of evidence: The science of evolution.

i understand where you're coming from, though. it is indeed difficult to me to imagine how the multitude of species we see today could have come from some realtively simple molecules. we're not hard-wired to think on those scales. i think the following quote on evolution articulates my sentiments quite well:

Such is the impersonal force that evidently made us what we are today. All of biology, from molecular to evolutionary, points that way. At the risk of seeming defensive, I am obliged to acknolwedge that many people, some very well educated, prefer special creation as an explanation for the origin of life. According to a poll conducted by the National Opinion Research Center in 1994, 23 percent of Americans reject the idea of human evolution, and a third more are undecided. This pattern is unlikely to change radically in the years immediately ahead. Because I was raised in a predominately anti-evolutionist culture in the Protestant southern United States, I am inclined to be empathetic to these feelings, and conciliatory. Anything is possible, it can be said, if you believe in miracles. Perhaps God did create all organisms, including human beings, in finished form, in one stroke, and maybe it all happened several thousand years ago. But if that is true, He also salted the earth with false evidence in such endless and exquisite detail, and so thoroughly from pole to pole, as to make us conclude first that life evolved, and second that the process took billions of years. Surely Scripture tells us He would not do that. The Prime Mover of the Old and New Testaments is variously loving, magisterial, denying, thunderously angry, and mysterious, but never tricky.


--E.O. Wilson in Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge
Reply #71 Top
so you're telling me that one single guy, using stone or bronze age technology, built a ship strong enough to maintain bouyancy of not only two (or 14) of every dinosaur and other animal, but also the food it'd take to feed them for a year? i suppose if god draws up the blueprints for you, sure. but i think one person (or did Noah use the man and woman he brought as cheap labor?) would be able to construct such a monstrosity in a single lifetime.


first who said they were stone or bronze age technology.

second it wasn't just one person working on the ark it was 8.

third it wasn't that big slightly smaller than a super tanker.

fourth dinosaurs didn't make the trip.

fifth Noah could only save the animals from around where he lived not all over the world. of course this could change if they had any zoos in the area. I know zoos were invented by the Aztecs.

sixth the fast reproducers would have had a year to multiply. the slower producers would have had a year of eating preserved meats and what not.

seventh every land animal on the planet is closely related to every other land animal.
it only takes three generations to turn a wolf into a dog.

eighth for a book that was written by a bunch of stone age bronze age Shepard's the bible is pretty accurate with the way scientists say that the universe and solar system started.

Reply #72 Top

yes, i'm sorry to say it is. for starters, variation is not binary. two specimens with completely different chormosomes cannot represent the full spectrum of variation of most traits in a species. take human eye color. brown/black is the typical dominant. but green, blue, grey, and amber are all possible. one individual cannot carry the genes for all four of those recessive traits (especially because most recessive traits require dual-pairing of the gene from both parents). so even if the father of all of us had brown and blue, and the mother, green and gray, we're still short one chormosonal variance (amber). maybe Noah did the horizontal mambo as well and God just decided to leave that part out of the bible?


Actually, there are several places that can determine eye color (OCA1 through OCA4 in the case of eye color). You are partially correct: Because of this, eye color is not simply binary. In fact, a single human can hold the genetic code for several eye colors.

In addition, Noah didn't just come with his wife: He came with his family.

so you're telling me that one single guy, using stone or bronze age technology, built a ship strong enough to maintain bouyancy of not only two (or 14) of every dinosaur and other animal, but also the food it'd take to feed them for a year?


Ship construction has been known to man for a long time, and the dimensions of the Ark are similar to a barge. This was not some random person that didn't know what he was doing - the ark was apparently constructed by an expert in the field. In addition, he was not a "single guy" - he had a family, and there's nothing in the Bible saying he didn't hire more help. In addition, he had plenty of time: As long as 100 years (or more), perhaps.

In addition, nothing is mentioned about the maturity of the animals bought into the ark - there's nothing saying that they couldn't bring juveniles, or for that matter eggs.
Reply #73 Top
first who said they were stone or bronze age technology.


i did. unless you want to claim that Noah had later technology, but that's not in the bible. ergo, it's most likley the technology matched the era in which the events are proprted to take place. the most advanced civilizations in the middle east (and everywhere) 6,000 years ago were at the broze age level of technology. sure, there's evidence that Minoans had astrolabes and Egyptians had gold electroplating, but absolutely no evidence of the feats of engineering corresponding to what we'd call industrial age technology.

second it wasn't just one person working on the ark it was 8.
third it wasn't that big slightly smaller than a super tanker.


ah, well, i stand corrected. i wonder how many people it takes to build an oil tanker, and how long (let alone how long it'd take wihtout modern technology and materials).

fourth dinosaurs didn't make the trip.


maybe you should tell that to Cobra; i already know that since i know the flood never happened.

fifth Noah could only save the animals from around where he lived not all over the world. of course this could change if they had any zoos in the area. I know zoos were invented by the Aztecs.


ah, that explains why there are animals in australia, the americas and antarctica today.

sixth the fast reproducers would have had a year to multiply. the slower producers would have had a year of eating preserved meats and what not.


ah, so you've got twelve days of food for a single lion, then. lions need 15 lbs. of food per day (though they usually gorge for several day's worth of food, sometimes more than 100lbs in a sitting). so two lions would have needed almost 11,000 lbs. of meat to last that first year.

as for the rabbits, yeah, Noah could have probably bred about 78,000 rabbits in the first year, and he could have continued breeding them on the Ark, and certainly they'd produce enough food for two adult lions per month. but what the heck would they be eat? how much planet material would Noah need to feed them?

of course, Noah wouldn't bring all 78,000 rabbits. if he had the benefit of revelation, he'd only bring enough to keep the lions fed. 8 adult rabbits per day is 240 a month, which could be produced by only 20 pairs of rabbits. however, Noah would face a difficult choice. the lions need 8 adult rabbits; they wouldn't survive on 240 baby rabits a month. he could give the rabbits 6 months to mature to adulthood, but that means he'd need to have over 1,400 of them on the Ark at once, and feed them all. on the other hand, a 1-month old rabbit probably has the equivalent caloric value for a lion that a tic tac has for a human, so he'd need a lot more adults making baby rabbits if he wanted to feed the babies to the lions.

and this is just the logistics of two animal species. there's a reason zoos are so big. while animals don't have that much volume, they need space around them to survive. most need a lot of food. and you'd need a lot of fairly heavy metals to keep the stronger animals contained. does the story of Noah mention god granting all the animals the ability to survive on seaweed and fish, and radically changing their behavioral dispositions?

seventh every land animal on the planet is closely related to every other land animal.
it only takes three generations to turn a wolf into a dog.


ah, so how many generations does it take to turn a wolf into a koala? a giraffe? what about a dung beatle? you can "turn a wolf into a dog" because dogs were domesticated very recently (10,000 years ago). in fact, you can breed a wolf and a dog and produce a fertile offspring, which means they aren't even separate species in the most common way of measuring it.

eighth for a book that was written by a bunch of stone age bronze age Shepard's the bible is pretty accurate with the way scientists say that the universe and solar system started.


really? i must have missed that part when God said, "let there condense a multi-ton cloud of primarily hydrogen gas into a compact, gravity-bound sphere engaged in a sustained fusion reaction." but i only read the thing twice, so it must be one of the more obscure passages.

Hindus claim the same thing about their holy texts, and some Jews still search for the exact decimal value of pi in the Torah. better a libertal interpretation than a literal one, i guess.

round 2.

Actually, there are several places that can determine eye color (OCA1 through OCA4 in the case of eye color). You are partially correct: Because of this, eye color is not simply binary. In fact, a single human can hold the genetic code for several eye colors.


indeed, i was trying to provide a simple example. i know that nearly all traits are coded by multiple genes, often into the 100s (that we've managed to identify). data compression does fun things to sequences.

i rasied the example to highlight the extreme bottleneck we'd expect to see in virtually all land animals if their populations had been as low as 2 (or 14) within the last 6,000 years (hell, the last 100,000). but we've measured the effects of a bottleneck when they've occurred.

how did marsupials end up in australia and north america, but there are none anywhere in the old world, let alone Turkey? predators? australia doesn't have any big cats or indigenous canines. maybe they were killed off by hunters in the old world? they why not in the new world, which has big felines and canines, and marsupials? i certainly can't explain that in terms of variance alone; i need to turn to geo-evolutionary history, which tells me the americas and australia were once joined with each other and anarctica and share a common historical biome; anscestral marsupials must have evolved there and diverged after the continents split.

or maybe Noah took a side-trek before landing in Turkey, and then spent his last years destroying all fossil evidence of marsupials in the world world from before the flood.

Ship construction has been known to man for a long time, and the dimensions of the Ark are similar to a barge. This was not some random person that didn't know what he was doing - the ark was apparently constructed by an expert in the field. In addition, he was not a "single guy" - he had a family, and there's nothing in the Bible saying he didn't hire more help. In addition, he had plenty of time: As long as 100 years (or more), perhaps.


early ship construction was canoes. the pacific islands were populated by way of outrigger. the most advanced ships in hellenic period were probably triremes, but they were built for sailing the calm waters of the mediterranean and the atlantic coast, and they still sank a-plenty. Chinese junks weren't developed until the second century BC.

In addition, nothing is mentioned about the maturity of the animals bought into the ark - there's nothing saying that they couldn't bring juveniles, or for that matter eggs.


evolutionary theorists like to fill in blanks too. it's said that god made the flood happen to punish man for his evil ways (gotta love that androcentric rhetoric). publicity of punishment is generally viewed a strong deterrant against further infractions of the law. so why would god, in all his infinite knowledge, leave details out of the flood story and make it less believable? any good sci fi writer will tell you that if you want people to buy something that fantastic, you can't miss the smallest detail. yes, of course, because it was written by a man who received god's revelation, not god himself. so why would god let such a man miss a few details? i mean, if god came to me tonight and said, "Thou shalt go to the store for 2% rBGH-free milk, extra large free-range eggs, and Knudsen's cottage cheese," and i wrote doesn, "milk, eggs, cheese," what do you think he'd do? brush his hands and say, "oh well, i tried hard enough for this convenant. maybe i'll make sure i'm more clearly understood next time." did he miss it completely? if they were indeed His words, i think He'd want them recorded exactly. lawmakers typically do. no, the story of the ark doesn't contain laws; it contains a punishment, which is an extension of law. but maybe god's different; as a mere mortal (who's happened to extensively study the internalization of laws and norms by human beings), i certainly wouldn't know.
Reply #74 Top
i did. unless you want to claim that Noah had later technology, but that's not in the bible. ergo, it's most likley the technology matched the era in which the events are proprted to take place. the most advanced civilizations in the middle east (and everywhere) 6,000 years ago were at the broze age level of technology. sure, there's evidence that Minoans had astrolabes and Egyptians had gold electroplating, but absolutely no evidence of the feats of engineering corresponding to what we'd call industrial age technology.


it isn't in the bible that he was stone age or bronze age.

this is my thought only but i think that they had the same tech that we have.


when you have 8 people trying to survive after a flood that wipes out the entire human race. are you going to worry about cars or food.

there is the indian artifact that they have been worshiping for almost 1000 years. pbs xrayed it. and what they showed on tv from the xray it was a spark plug.

Reply #75 Top
ah, well, i stand corrected. i wonder how many people it takes to build an oil tanker, and how long (let alone how long it'd take wihtout modern technology and materials).


maybe that is why they used wood. now your going to tell me that they couldnt have used wood becouse they were using rocks to cut them down