Ugly, ain't it. It surprises me that they don't want to get a tax credit for abortions. After all, they claim it is saving the world from the poor, unwanted dregs that would just be a burden on society, anyway.

Hey, maybe she is donating to PP out of remorse that she has a 24 year old daughter to support...

Well working in the income tax business for almost 20 years it's interesting to see things. For one thing it's very obvious that the Liberals don't give to charitable organizations nearly even close what their conservative counterparts do. Why do you suppose? This is nothing new, I guess this was reported as fact back along. It's certainly fact in our office and we deal with at one point 600 clients. My husband seems to think it's like 5 to 1. The conservatives are five times as likely to give to charitable organizations as one liberal is.

I can also tell you which religion receives the most by seeing how the individuals give as well. Catholics....give the least and the Adventists give the most. It's real clear, not even debateable.

The other thing we see is the people who make generally the least give more; percentage wise that is. The more money one makes the less he gives. That, to me, is backed up quite well biblically speaking. We have at least two that make about a million dollars a year. I think we're lucky if we see three or four hundred dollars in donations during any given year given by them.

Funny the things you see when doing taxes.

Do you poll your clients as to what their political leanings are when you are doing their taxes? How do you know whether they are liberal or conservative?



What do you mean it's not even debabeable--did you ever consider that people don't list their contributions on their taxes? Are you really going to make a grand statement about two entire religions based on the 600 clients in your practice?

Honestly, every Mass I've ever been to, people put cash in the basket--so unless they are going up and asking for a receipt afterwards, they wouldn't be counting it on their taxes.

Do you poll your clients as to what their political leanings are when you are doing their taxes? How do you know whether they are liberal or conservative?

no we don't poll them. But after having a business relationship with them for many years, it's not hard to figure out where they stand even if they don't come right out...(some do some don't) tell us what political party they belong to. Lots of questions come out when you do somebody's taxes and charitable deductions is a question that gets asked. I mean, you can alot of times tell just from that alone. some give to churches, some give to political causes, some give to civic organizations. Lots of info gets discussed sometimes it may be current events. It's not real hard to figure out. I mean if you're giving to planned parenthood and have no church affliation or deductions or use four letter words that are not Christ like I can pretty much say by their fruits they are not Christian minded.

What do you mean it's not even debabeable--did you ever consider that people don't list their contributions on their taxes? Are you really going to make a grand statement about two entire religions based on the 600 clients in your practice?

based on 20 years of tax business this is the research we've come up with. Do your own research and see what you get. I noticed you didn't volunteer that you're a big giver debunking what I said. So could this be a true assessment based just on you? Be honest. I take it you're a Catholic? I'm not bashing you by stating this fact. It's just a fact we see over and over again. After a while you get so you can count on things.

I can also back this up with family and friends that I know........we have many Catholic relatives. . We do our family's tax returns for free. It's quite noticeable that while they go to mass, they maybe put 5 or 10 in the plate every week. That doesn't add up to much in a year and that's what we're going on. We have a few Adventists and in EVERY case they give the most, usually more than 10% of their yearly income. We have MORE Catholics than Adventists (we live in the NE) and we've seen very little in Charitable donations coming from them.

Honestly, every Mass I've ever been to, people put cash in the basket--so unless they are going up and asking for a receipt afterwards, they wouldn't be counting it on their taxes

I don't doubt this. You have alot of people that go to Mass. But that's not a very good barometer to go by. If they all put in 5-10 a week it may look like alot when the plate goes by, but is not a good way to measure because you have no idea these individual incomes.

I would venture to say that MOST if not basically ALL people are scrounging around looking for as many deductions as they can to cut their tax liability. So, I would say it's not reasonable to EXPECT that people aren't going to list their contributions.

First, it's not a fact--it is your observation. You would require a much greater sample for it to be a fact.

Second, I have no plans to make you privy to my financial condition. It's none of your business--and it is really not relevant to this conversation. That said, I agree with Loca that not everyone deducts charitable contributions. I'd also add that not everyone makes monetary contributions--is volunteering your time less valuable than writing a check?

Please don't take the fact that I'm not going to tell you what percetanage of my salary I donate to mean that I do nothing--rather it means I don't feel the need to defend myself. Those who I help, both charitable organizations and individuals, are more than aware and they are the only ones that matter.

But a question for you, does it make you feel better to imply that you are more generous than I am? or than all Catholics are?

usually people who say this....please don't take this wrong...I said usually...but they don't really give enough for it to be an issue. I agree with you to some extent tho because we've done this as well. While we give by check mostly, we also occasionally dump cash into the plate and we don't worry about it. But the IRS has come out with even tougher rules this year regarding this issue. In the past you could declare cash to a certain degree but now they want even cash verified. Our church treasurer just sent out notices saying if we want a deduction we need to put it into envelopes now. Otherwise if you don't care just put in as usual.

There's nothing wrong with declaring your deductions on your tax return as far as God is concerned. It's not like you're bragging about it and it's perfectly legal. Normally speaking only you and your accountant would know anyhow. Motivation as you said, is a very big part of why we give in God's eyes. He'd rather see someone give 10 and all they could afford with the right heart attitude than those that give 10,000 for self interest only. The only instruction in the NT on giving is that God loves a cheerful giver. That's the key.

thanks Doc. I didn't even think to go via the net. I'm just going on our experience anyhow. But a question for you since I know you are more involved in the Catholic circles than I. Do you think most Catholics are liberal?

Where I live, that's what I see. Of course I'm not too far from MA and you know that is largly a Catholic state and where many of our relatives live. My in-laws were strong Catholics but I wouldn't describe them as liberal. They were more moderates in their belief system both religiously and politically. The rest in the family seem pretty liberal.

To be fair, I do have two dear friends here that are strong believers in the CC and are as conservative as I am.

For tax purposes it doesn't matter how little it is. If I go make a donation at goodwill, I don't get a receipt. If I hand over $5 to a homeless person, I don't write it down and I couldn't prove it anyway. I'm not saying that I'm a high dollar giver. I do what I can and I could do more. I really feel better helping individuals than organizations. I do give the shoeboxes for Samaritan's purse each year at Christmas. I give to a Catholic mission in Juarez Mexico but they prefer donated items over cash because the government there is so corrupt that the cash never gets to where it's supposed to be. I purchase extra school supplies to donate to the stuff the bus each year. I donate snacks for VBS. I give money to the K of C, the Salvation Army, Shriners, schools, sports teams etc. when they are doing fundraisers at the store. When I do go to church, and I don't go every week, I put cash in the basket. I give. But someone like you could look at my tax return and lump me into the group that doesn't give and that's just not accurate. Any of the indvidual contributions are not high dollar but they do add up over the course of a year. I don't know how much you have to give for it to be an issue $100? $1000? $10,000?

If you read the article, it was not talking about person X and Y. It was talking averages. That is taking total collections and dividing by the number of parishioners. And it is not even close. I am Catholic as all here know. But I am not a denier when it comes to the less than pretty parts of my faith, or my Church.

I am sure that you can find a Person X who is Catholic that gave a lot more to the church than any Protestant ever did (and I happen to know one like that). But that is the exception, and as you previously alleged, anecdotal.

Dr. Guy--I think we are talking about two different things. Your article might be fact, I don't know--I haven't had time to read it. My point was that what KFC said wasn't a fact. If the first 600 cats I see are all brown--that doesn't mean that all cats are brown, right? By the same token if 600 Adventist give more than 600 Catholics, that doesn't mean that all Adventist give more than Catholics. That's what I was trying to get at.

I'm reading a book on the philopshy of science right now--I think it's influencing my thought process.

shades: you're implying that your standard of 'fact' would ever be possible. It wouldn't. At the level of certainty you're asking for there would be very few facts.

Really? I disagree.

If an inductive reference from the observations is justified, it should meet three criteria:

1. The number of observations forming the generalization must be large
2. The observation must be made under a variety of conditions
3. No accepted observation statement should conflict with the "derived law" (or universal principle)

I would say that numbers 1 and 2 are the most important, and that two is missing in this case. You have a small sample from one tax office in one state of the US. Not a variety of conditions. I don't think that it is unreasonable to suggest that KFCs observations may not lead to the "fact" that Catholics give less.

It is possible to arrive at a false conclusion based on true observations. Take the story of the turkey often credited to Bertrand Russell. The turkey is feed at 9am. As days go by, each morning, the turkey is fed at the same time. The turkey concludes that each day he will be fed at the same time. However, on Christmas Eve, the turkey is killed. The turkey's conclusion (that he will be fed at 9am every day) is a false conclusion that was based on true observations.

All that said, KFC, I apologize for the extremely off topic hijack. If anyone is interested in this philosophy of science stuff, I'm reading "What is this Thing called Science" by A. F. Chalmers. It's interesting--if dense.

PS. KFC-I'm sure the law of averages comes in somewhere, but I haven't reached that chapter yet. I'll have to get back to you.

LW--You're making me blush--but I sincerely appreciate the kind words. I just wish I really did have "inner peace"--but I'm working on it...




Again--discussing a point that is tangential to the article.

Statistics are all well and good, but I would argue that it is not logical to derive facts from observation statements in order to make universal principles. Does it happen? Yes. Does that make it completely accurate? Of course not.

You may be able to use induction to get from a series of observations to a universal principle; however I would still argue that the observation would need to be made over a variety of conditions and it wasn't in this case. The scope was too narrow to declare that it is a fact that Catholics give less than Adventists.