The complexities of marketing, publishing, and distributing

There is no easy way...

When you're a game developer, life is easy. Make customers happy. That's pretty much the only thing you have control over.  Few (very few) developers are also their own publishers. And publishers have a very different set of criteria -- making sure the retailers are happy too which may involve contradictory approaches.

Stardock has one thing going for it that most publishers don't -- a mature and popular digital distribution network (TotalGaming.net on the game side). This has helped us keep some leverage. After all, who the heck is Stardock anyway? But because we sell millions of dollars a year in software via our own digital distribution network, we have alternatives.  That is why, for instance, WindowBlinds hasn't been at retail.  For years, various distributors have tried to make us do deals that would be bad for our customers and bad for us but very good for them.  Historically, distributors had all the clout along with the retailers so the developer/publisher pretty much had to accept whatever was offered.  But digital distribution gives us more options.  WindowBlinds, for example, sells more copies -- even today -- than Galactic Civilizations II.  And GalCiv II has sold very well. Well into the six figure range by the end of last June.  So you can imagine how well WindowBlinds sells and that's direct from Stardock.

This brings us to some of the things we want to do.

We want to lower the price of GalCiv II during the Christmas season. That probably sounds insane. But here's the thing, we want new players to feel like they're part of the rest of the community and hence be able to get Dark Avatar when it's available. And we don't want those users to be spending $70 at once.  As a gamer, I can deal with $40 to $50 at once and then $25 to $30 half a year or more later.  But expecting to put up $70 or more at once is too much for me. 

I know of a lot of cool games I've heard about via word of mouth over the years that I didn't end up buying because I wasn't willing to just get the base game when there was an expansion pack out.  Yes, I know I could just live with the regular game and get the expansion later. But I suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way -- if I'm going to get a game, I'm going to get the whole thing.

So now we talk about where the retailers come in.  Retail shelf space is tight.  So one idea was to expand Dark Avatar even further. Put in MORE features than we have listed there. Make it not quite a sequel but far more than a typical expansion pack...

..and then, thanks to digital distribution release the upgrade as the expansion pack digitally so people who bought the original game could get the full new version of GalCiv II at a discount and make the retail version a compilation that includes it all in a single box.  This would make retailers happy and new users happy but it would mean dealying the expansion pack until after Christmas (we'd do an open beta this Fall so people who wanted to start playing it before Christmas could play, it would be "Beta" only in name really, no buggier than a 1.x beta has been which means, some bugs but nothing huge typically).

But doing so brings the question of what to call the new stand alone version? GalCiv II: Gold? GalCiv II: Dark Avatar? There is likely to be some confusion either way.  One of the benefits is that having an expansion pack and compilation version out at the same time would help sales at retail since that's when all the editiorial coverage and advertising would be taking place.  But again, the question returns - what to call the stand alone compilation vs. what to call the expansion pack.

So what got us thinking down this track in the first place? The CivFanatics.com contest. No single entry per se but reading through there just inspired us to want to come up wtih more features to put in. But at a certain point, the features become so long that they're almost a quasi-sequel being made with the same underlying game engine.

We'd love to hear your thoughts...

79,900 views 73 replies
Reply #1 Top
I'm all for it. As I said before if we end up with a better much more fun to play game, at the ecpense of some time I can't say no. I would hate make you rush a game out the door that you didn't think was really finished. Holding a beta is also a good Idea. People would get to play it before the actual releace and get to help the development along in the process.

As for suggestions for the compilation box I've got two suggestions.

1. GalCiv 2: Ultimate Edition : an edition expanding the game way beyond what it has ever been

2. GalCiv 2: Player's Choice Edition : expanded with features and gamplay inspired by the very gamers who play Galciv

Using the title of Dark Avatar for the compilation would make it confusing. You need a title that tells the buyer. "Hey. I'm the original game and an amazing new expansion together! And I still sell for one low price!"

The regular expansion should keep the Dark Avatar name though. It sounds pretty cool and is different from the already known Dread Lords title.
Reply #2 Top
Well, I'm never one to turn down an offer of even more enhancements and features! Seriously though, too many game releases these days are followed by comments from the developers along the lines of "we had some really great features we wanted to put in, but we ran short on time... maybe next time..." It's always disappointing, and it always leaves me wanting to see the "Director's Cut" of these games - what the game would've been like if the developers had been able to do everything they wanted. I really hope you guys decide to go for it.

Waiting until 2007 for it isn't the end of the world, even without a public beta. With a public beta, it's even less of an issue.

As for names, well, I dunno, that's a little tricky. Things like Gold Edition give me the impression that it's just a repackaging of what's already been released, with no new content. People who already have GalCiv2 may bypass it, thinking they've already got all the patches, etc. to be up to date. I kinda like just GalCiv II: Dark Avatar. There have been a few games that went that route, enhancing the game and re-releasing it as a standalone package with a subtitle. Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is one that I seem to recall.
Reply #3 Top

And of course there's still the option for a smaller expansion pack that could be released before Christmas.

So really the first question is - would users be willing to wait until AFTER Christmas for an expansion pack if it had more features? Or would they prefer the original expansion pack concept? OR would they be okay with the expansion pack after Christmas as long as there was a beta program for those who pre-ordered it before Christmas?

Reply #4 Top
I like what I have read so far. You peeps are on the right track. Release it when it is ready.. with all the features you want to add. An open "beta" will make tmost people happy, and the rest of us will wait until the game is ready for release.
Reply #5 Top

There have been a few games that went that route, enhancing the game and re-releasing it as a standalone package with a subtitle. Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is one that I seem to recall.

Yep.  That is an example of skipping an expansion pack and just rebranding the new game.  The difference here is that we really want to have an expansion pack that lets people who bought galCiv II: Dread Lords to get everything at a reduced cost.  People who bought Age of Wonders II: Throne of Kings still had to pay full price for Age of Wonders II: Shadow Magic.

Reply #6 Top
Brad, to be honest one of the things that I love so much about GalCiv2 and everyone at Stardock is that you're really trying to make the game the best it can be! That being said, I would love for you guys to go out there and make the expansio/sequel you want to make. After all you set out to make GalCiv2 the game you really wanted and its carried you far beyond what you could have expected.

As a fan, you folks have proved yourself to me time and again. With the street cred you've built up, I am happy to wait for you guys again I know it will be worth it!
Reply #7 Top
I'd be ok with a longer wait as long as those who've preordered (or will pre order soon, like me) get to play around. I was really looking forward to DA, and though I would love to have more features in a larger expansion pack, I'd be sad to wait until after Christmas to play it. But I think I'd live...
Reply #8 Top
Well, considering that I would be waiting for a better game with more features, and presumably very well balanced\patched, I can't think of a reason NOT to hold off. Well, except for the Christmas season. It would be a big bummer to miss that massive retail time for you guys.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't mind one bit waiting. Yeah, it might suck to not have this for another few months. Yes...I would love playing it NOW! But I feel safe with you guys at the helm of this. You guys have done a great job balancing the fans with the business side. Whichever way you guys go with this, I'll still be supporting you.

As for a subtitle that you could use, there are some of the Neverwinter Nights ones; Diamond, Emerald, etc. Otherwise I think that the Players Choice one works well.

Best of luck deciding this one.
Reply #9 Top
If you could add in multiplayer it would easily be worth the wait...even if it didn't get in it would be worth it.
Reply #10 Top
I might get lynched for this. But...

I know of a lot of cool games I've heard about via word of mouth over the years that I didn't end up buying because I wasn't willing to just get the base game when there was an expansion pack out. Yes, I know I could just live with the regular game and get the expansion later. But I suspect I'm not the only one who feels this way -- if I'm going to get a game, I'm going to get the whole thing.


I've found this is generally true. It's like jumping into a soap opera (read: Battlestar Galactica) in the middle; most people won't do it. They'd rather hold off until they can buy the dvd series and start from the beginning.

Also, players tend to value the most recent release of a series over earlier titles. There's a feeling that each successive title must be 'bigger and better' than previous ones.

So why not build Dark Avatar as the third sequel in the GalCiv series? Using the current engine?

You've put so much work into it already. As mentioned before, the amount of new content you guys have already created rivals typical AAA-game full-fledged sequels. And still you plan more. From the moment a new campaign was added, I began to wonder why Dark Avatar remained an expansion pack. GalCiv's engine is still quite young and capable of competing for at least a year or two more.

So, for instance, GalCiv2: Dread Lords still exists as an independent title. With a bit of advertising (playing heavily upon the fantastic reviews) and a price drop, new players may still be introduced to it during the holidays. Meanwhile Galactic Civilizations 3: Dark Avatar is developed for a 2007 release.

Of course, there are risks.

A full-digital distribution of a stand-alone title is, sadly, something which still scares a great deal of people. (I personally do not believe it to be a matter of 'having something solid in hand' as much as younger adults who do not have easy access to Paypal and other forms of electronic credit/currency.) And, of course, Vista might well knock everything into a cocked hat.

But Stardock is currently riding a wave of success. GalCiv I and II got rave reviews. (It is so very rare to see an X-Play review which cannot find any problem with a game!) I realize I don't have all the information, but is not now the time to strike... while the iron is hot?

Anyway, just my two cents.

Reply #11 Top
I'm not sure if this is a listed feature but, heres my say.

When you select what ships to build, you have to scroll throw a very long list if you've been making a lot of ships. At some point, the obsolete button becomes useless because of the sheer volume of ships available.

So here is an alternative, a folder system to store ships in. In the ship manager screen you can create folders so you can toss ships in. There after, you can open and close these folders when selecting what ships to build. By having your ships neatly organized into individual folders, and even folders in those folder, you should be able to quickly select what ship you want to build without shifting through so much clutter.

I hope this helps.
Reply #12 Top
Hmmm... bit of a quandry to say the least.

Let me start out by saying I think the folks at Stardock try to keep the customers best interest at heart. And while you can never please everyone with every decision I think for the most part each has made the majority happy. While I would accept a pushed back release date (::GASP:: a software package that slips its release  ) I would rather have the original DA expansion for Christmas then sometime in 2007. I think you should save the *really cool stuff that has come to light recently* for the next expansion in another 6 months. The pre-order BETA would certainly appease my desire to have the cool features earlier  .

As for naming how about

Retail - GC2: Enhanced Edition. When I think "enhanced" it means the original game along with all the stuff that has been added since original release.

Download - GC2: DA Expansion. Just the expansion pack for those of us that have been enjoying the game for the last 8 months.
Reply #13 Top
OR would they be okay with the expansion pack after Christmas as long as there was a beta program for those who pre-ordered it before Christmas?

As long as the beta isn't "beta" too much, it sounds good to me.
Reply #14 Top
I really prefer to have the Expansion/Gold Version later and get more features.
I still miss some stuff when I look at the DA announcement. In general, for more depth and variety in gameplay I would also wait until next summer!
By and large, my personal probability to get the Expansion/Gold Version will increase with the quality and maturity of the game's content...
Reply #15 Top
So really the first question is - would users be willing to wait until AFTER Christmas for an expansion pack if it had more features?


Well I've pre-paid, expecting to get the goods in October/November.... but if I'm going to get more goodness for the same price, yeah, I'll live with the delay, you swine! So would it be coming out basically at the same time as GC2 last year? If you could get it out for the beginning of February, that would nice birthday present for V1m!

Well I already posted in another thread that a "Total GalCiv" retail set might be a good idea - a DVD with GC1, AP, GC2 and DA all in one bundle. But I think it might be a good idea to hold off on that until the inevitable post-release patch, since a large part of your sales will be to people who won't/cant register.

The problem I see with this is the dist/retailers maybe not being happy with you guys selling it via download for a couple of weeks before they get it. The obvious solution is to initially release it to only those who have pre-ordered it and let us test/bug report it for you, but I'm concerned that that will hold up the game, since it takes a while to get a game printed and shipped.
Reply #16 Top
Dam I have a lot to say but not the time to type it. Short and sweet.

I won't but anything online because of STEAM.

I won't support a developer who forces the consumer to download any portion of there product.

Its not Stardocks fault. Its VALVes. If Stardock Central came before STEAM. people would have a greater acceptance of it. (because Stardock Central has NEVER given me the problems STEAM has.)

However if you release a Full Version with Expansion. I will rebuy the entire game again as long as I can walk up to an EB or GameStop and buy the game with cash.
Reply #17 Top
One thing that i haven't understood (due to my not perfect english) is if the expansion pack will be published later will it be available at retail or will be available a version which include gc2 and dark avatar, so the expansion only version will be available only digitally.

About the question aked by frogboy i must say that it would be surely better an enriched expansion with more feature relased later than an expansion with less features released earlier.
I like this game but I'm not part of the fancy people which would buy an expansion at 30 $ also if it contains only jewelry, and I think that DA was just well hyped , because espionage seems too much similar to Doomsday expansion of HoI2 which is not so funny, while planet types would be great but all this content doesn't justify 30$ without a manual,box and original cd, adding more feature so in my opinion would at least convince people like me which are no sure to buy the xp to take it also if it is released digitally.
Reply #18 Top
I should also add that if we're not getting DA until next year, I assume we'll be getting patch 1.4 before then, as there are still a few outstandign bugs & glitches that could do with being fixed (*cough* planet quality *cough*)
Reply #19 Top
I won't but anything online because of STEAM.

I won't support a developer who forces the consumer to download any portion of there product.

Its not Stardocks fault. Its VALVes.



Ehm well as Stardock apps don't ask to authenticate every damb time you use them, I don't see what the problem can be. Maybe you could look at in this light: by supporting an online dev/pulisher who does it right, you'll be encouraging better practice.

As I said in another thread, one thing I like about buying through Stardock central is that *all* the money goes to the guys who make the game.


Reply #20 Top
Well as someone who had pre-ordered the expansion pack i would say that having to wait until 2007 for it would not please me. That said if there was a public beta containing all the updates to 'X' point i would be happy.
To be brutally honest i have been playing the game now since it was released, and even though each update has brought new features to the game i do wonder if delaying the expansion until spring is a good thing to do. How long does the average player carry on playing one game? Will they wait for another 4+ months without cancelling their pre-order?

To keep most players going on the game you would need to at least release some kind of beta version with the new features in it, or you may find that a high proportion of your pre-orders and possible future sales have moved on from the game and Stardock.

Just my 0.02$

DG
Reply #21 Top
I wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer for a more full-featured offering. Having the beta to mess around with in the meantime would be nice, though.

GalCiv II: Gold?


Gold = old and busted

GalCiv II: Latinum Edition
Reply #22 Top
OR would they be okay with the expansion pack after Christmas as long as there was a beta program for those who pre-ordered it before Christmas?


I vote this option. I pre-ordered DA and would be very, very disappointed if there was nothing before xmas. However I would like the expansion to be the best/highest quality u can make it.

I would be a little concerned if I was u about missing the xmas period. Xmas is HUGE for computer games as u no doubt know. Many new games get released in the run up to xmas, so some GC2 players could move onto other games and not return until GC3 in 2009-10.
Reply #23 Top
Xmas is HUGE for computer games as u no doubt know. Many new games get released in the run up to xmas, so some GC2 players could move onto other games and not return until GC3 in 2009-10.


But when GC2 was released this February, there seemed to be some anecdotal evidence that it did well partly because it wasn't competing in the Xmas rush. Hardly anything else was being released, just as people were realising that their rushed, over-hyped unoriginal Xmas games weren't so interesting after all.

4X games dont sell so well to the teenie market that gets their games bought for them. GC2 seems to appeal more to people who buy their own. And I have a lot of other things to spend my time and money on than video games before/during Xmas, but much less so afterwards.
Reply #24 Top
Gold = old and busted

GalCiv II: Latinum Edition

This one definitely gets my vote! Who cares about gold anyway.
Reply #25 Top
Its not Stardocks fault. Its VALVes. If Stardock Central came before STEAM. people would have a greater acceptance of it. (because Stardock Central has NEVER given me the problems STEAM has.)


It did. TGN's predecessor, Drengin.net, was around well before STEAM. It's just that it really hasn't gotten as big or popular until this past year or two. But it's been there for a long time.

And we plan to have a disc-by-mail option for DA, so it's not download-only so much as direct-order only by the current plan.