Col, everything you posted here has nothing to do with the article. You take an article that has nothing to do about Bush, and turn it into a Bush bash. Pathetic.

I see you do not address the issue col, just blame Bush.

Back to topic.

Why can't people who want to get out of the poverty situation not get out?

In my experience it is because all they really want to do is talk about how bad it is while smoking 2-3 or even 4 packs of cigarettes a week....they want to get out as long as it doesn't require any work on their part. (Of course I am speaking about a few individuals in particular in my life.)

My brother works, and works hard but is still well below poverty level. He is there because of choices he made all along the road of life. He was too cool for school, too tough to think about the future and too disrespectful of the rules to ever abide by the law. Now he is paying the piper.

Could he get out? Sure. But it'd require WORK! He'd have to get a GED, apply for student loans and go to college or a trade school something to acquire some skills....etc. But instead he just works his crappy little factory job and whines about how the gov screwed him.

He can afford an internet connection, cigarette and beer. Good grief if he'd drop those habits he could afford better housing. But it's easier to whine. I love him but dang, come on! It wasn't an over night thing! It was a lifetime full of choices that brought him where he is.....he is responsible and he is the only one who can do anything about it.

But he will never believe that.

While not every person who is on welfare actually NEEDS that welfare, not every person on welfare is there for a free ride. There are individuals who are working hard to provide for their families and who need just a bit of help getting back to being productive members of society out there. And I don't begrudge those sincere, hardworking people a bit of my family's taxes

I don't mind assisting others with a hand UP. It's all of the people that are leeching from the system and using it as a hand OUT, that really get my goat.

I have had to use the welfare/medicaid programs before. Recently married, child on the way and recently laid off, I didn't have much of a choice at that point. However, we worked as hard as we could to be able to get off of those programs and be self-sufficient. Once a person gets back on their feet, then the assistance should slow down, and ultimately stop. Limits should be in place (and enforced, regardless of race/religion/creed/capability) that place SEVERE restrictions on those that are otherwise ablebodied and capable of work. Folks that are disabled from disease (like the young lady that my wife works with part time as a caregiver, or LW) or injury, are an exception. These are the kinds of folks that, we as a society, need to care for.

On another note, my wife and I are currently semi-debt free. The only debt that we currently have is the note on the house. Both vehicles are paid off (or were bought w/ cash), we have no credit cards (by choice), and any major purchases are paid for w/ cash, or we do without. In fact, the new computer that we purchased this weekend was paid for 100% before we walked into the store. Been saving for that baby for a couple years now.

It's nice to know that, if I died tomorrow, my life insurance would cover everything that is still outstanding (and burial costs) and still leave my wife enough of a nest egg that she wouldn't have to run out and get a job before I'm even buried.

Also if we are talking about "entitlement" programs. I recieved WIC, subsudized lunches and the Earned Income Credit. These are entitlement programs that we qualified for even though my husband was active duty in the military. We were at a lower pay grade at the time but these programs did help our family greatly.

There's a difference between actively trying (like you and your husband) to make a better life for yourself, but needing a hand up (WIC, subsidized lunches and the EIC) and using the system (Aid for Dependant Children, Section 8, etc) as your sole means of official support.

I as I've said before, I have no problem with helping people that are making an active attempt to honestly and sincerely help themselves. I do have a problem with people that constantly say "GimmeGimmeGimmeGimmeGimmeGimmeGimmeGimmeGimme" with out even the token attempt at helping themselves at the same time.

Also if we are talking about "entitlement" programs. I recieved WIC, subsudized lunches and the Earned Income Credit. These are entitlement programs that we qualified for even though my husband was active duty in the military. We were at a lower pay grade at the time but these programs did help our family greatly.

First off, thanks to you and your husband for his service and to you for putting up with it!! Thanks!!

Now, where I may offend. Did you already have children before entering the military? If not, I would only suggest that were it me, I would have waited until I was at a higher pay grade before having children. Again, I think the problem with our system is that it is no longer a safety net but rather, it allows people to engage in behavior that they would not so readily do if assistance were not available. For example, when one says safety net, it means a way to protect you from the unforseen (loss of job, death of a spouse, medical emergencies, etc.). It is not meant to allow people to have children that they are not financially prepared for. My sister's husband is still in the military and they have timed their three children with his rank and pay increases as they were able to afford more. My wife is about to have our fourth child. I will get a vasectomy as soon as I know I have a healthy baby girl. I am getting the vasectomy not because I simply don't want any more children, but because we have looked at our finances and determined that we would not be comfortable with having any more children as we could not guarantee being able to fully provide for their needs. Additionally, my four children are aged 14, 9, 6 and the last due Sept. 30th. The difference in ages is primarily due to financial concerns. Simply put, I will not bring a child into this world that I am unprepared to financially provide for on my own.

I am not lecturing, but even your case, as innocent as it may seem, is yet another example of abuse unless you had an unforseen reason to require the assistance that you recieved. Otherwise, you used my tax dollars to ease your burden while I waited until I was financially able to afford my own children without assistance.

Most of the things that locamama listed are dual purpose. WIC not only benefits families but also farmers. Subsidized lunches benefit the schools financially (school administration encourages all parents to apply for reduced price lunches).

And of course, Earned Income Credit is a tax benefit, and I can hardly see how anyone would consider filing income taxes correctly to be an abuse of welfare.

Most of the things that locamama listed are dual purpose. WIC not only benefits families but also farmers. Subsidized lunches benefit the schools financially (school administration encourages all parents to apply for reduced price lunches). And of course, Earned Income Credit is a tax benefit, and I can hardly see how anyone would consider filing income taxes correctly to be an abuse of welfare.

WIC: WIC is primarily a program to provide protein, calcium, iron, and vitamins A and C as these are the items most lacking in the diets of low-income families. The side program that you must be referring to is available in 32 states and is basically a coupon service for fresh fruits designed to increase the public's awareness. The latest numbers available in 2003 showed a total budget of $4.696 billion for WIC in FY 2003. The appropriation includes $25 million for the WIC Farmers' Market Nutrition Program. To call WIC a dual benefit is somewhat of a stretch.

Reduced Cost Lunch: The school is going to get paid for lunch one way or the other. They do not recieve any more money for a reduced cost lunch than a regular priced and in fact must wait to be reimbursed by a slow moving bureaucracy. I am quite sure that the schools would prefer cash paying customers as would most businesses.

EIC: Okay Tex, you are gonna make me have to say it like it is. If you truly qualify for EIC (as in you are a low income married couple, not a single mom hiding the babies daddie's income to rip off the government) then I would say that even though you are not abusing an entitlement, you are still irresponsible for having children unless of course you qualify for the EIC only because you have experienced a job loss. But plain and simple, if you have a child while qualifying for these programs, you are irresponsible. Now if you have had some sort of job loss or what not, then fine, but having kids while technically at the poverty line is just not right and it is an abuse of a system designed as a safety net. It is not designed to allow low income families to have babies before they are financially capable of supporting them.

Now this has really got me mad, I just looked it up and you must earn only $35,458 if married and filing a joint return in order to qualify for WIC or EIC. I can't speak for all areas of the country, but I can tell you that in Metro Atlanta, $35.458 is just about enough to pay for rent and part of your utilites.

I won't give myself as an example because I have a five bedroom house, but I work with a girl who rents a three bedroom apartment, paying $947.00. That's $11,364.00 per year. Now how about a car, we'll go reasonable with $300.00 per month or $3,600.00 although how people can live with only one car and get kids around I have no idea, but I'll assume your willing to make the sacrifice. Insurance for the car is gonna run you about $1,000.00 per year. Now we gotta figure in the cost of healthcare, about $400.00 per month or $4800.00 per year (that's only premiums, not co-pays). Phone, cable, electric, gas, etc. come up to another $400.00 per month or $4800.00. Taxes: well some taxes are not optional, while you may not be liable for federal tax, you will owe for social security and medicare at around $45.00 per week or $2,340.00 per year. I'm assuming you drive to your job so figure about $40.00 per week for gas or $2,080.00.

So far, I'm up to $29,984.00 per year, leaving $5,474.00 per year or $105.26 per week for clothes, food, reapirs to the car, etc. etc. etc. Your a mom Tex, I'm sure I'm being very conservative here (with the money, not philisophically)The point is, if you qualify for any of these programs, you shouldn't have kids, it's not fair to them or to the people who do the right thing and wait till they are finacially able to support children to have them.

If you have a problem with EIC, take it up with President Bush. He recently (recently being in the past couple of years) approved an increase in the child tax credit ($400 more per child, I believe).

Not only that, but childless low income wage earners qualify as well (income of less than $11,490 annually)...so if a single adult is attending college and working part time at The GAP, and receives EIC, are they being irresponsible?

Further, a married couple with one child making $31,338 annually qualifies for EIC. I hardly consider that an irresponsible income level.

Receiving public assistance is not a requirement (and in fact is in no way related to) for EIC. Therefore, a low income family with two or three children who receive no assistance and provide a simple but loving lifestyle for their children are not being irresponsible for receiving EIC. It's not something they need or ask for, but it is provided to them regardless when their income taxes are filed appropriately.

Your idea that one must have a lot of money in order to raise a child properly actually feeds into the entitlement mindset. A child can run and play just as well in hand-me-down Payless shoes as he can in $80 Nikes.

To call WIC a dual benefit is somewhat of a stretch.

"Somewhat of a stretch" = false?

I am quite sure that the schools would prefer cash paying customers as would most businesses.

And you are wrong. Many schools ENCOURAGE all parents, even those who doubt they will qualify, to fill out the application forms. I'm not sure how the funding works, but I do know that I have heard many administrators at many different schools tell the parents to fill them out because the more students they have that qualify (i.e., more low income students), the more funding the school will receive.

Your a mom Tex, I'm sure I'm being very conservative here (with the money, not philisophically)The point is, if you qualify for any of these programs, you shouldn't have kids, it's not fair to them or to the people who do the right thing and wait till they are finacially able to support children to have them.

I'm not sure why you're implying that I am personally being irresponsible. My husband is a SGT in the US Army. His taxable income is about $22,500. His actual income (the income we FEEL) with benefits such as COLA, BAS, BAH, health insurance, etc. is somewhere between $50K and $60K.

(Note: When he's deployed his income is NOT taxed. Many military families have only a few scant months of income to report because of deployments. Is that irresponsible?)

We can afford our children. They have everything they need and then some.

We receive EIC based on his taxable income. We don't ask for it. We don't require it to be able to survive. But we get it.

If you have a problem with this, then you have a problem with the IRS, not with me or the other hard working, self sufficient families who receive the tax credit.

ericseba: I assume that you've been busy today and that is why you haven't replied...but I want to bump this to make sure you see it.

And you are wrong. Many schools ENCOURAGE all parents, even those who doubt they will qualify, to fill out the application forms. I'm not sure how the funding works, but I do know that I have heard many administrators at many different schools tell the parents to fill them out because the more students they have that qualify (i.e., more low income students), the more funding the school will receive.

First and foremost I have four children in school, you will not be able to lecture me on this stuff. If a school has a choice between a parent that pays for several weeks in advance rather than a child for whom a slow moving beauracray will be paying, I am sure they will take me any day. The administrators at the schools my children have attended seem to regard these low cost meal applications as just another form that gets included in the mountain of paperwork that parents get blinded with at the beginning of every school year. I guess we could argue forever about our impressions and never agree.

because the more students they have that qualify (i.e., more low income students), the more funding the school will receive

That seems to speak for itself, does it not?

If you have a problem with EIC, take it up with President Bush. He recently (recently being in the past couple of years) approved an increase in the child tax credit ($400 more per child, I believe).

I have not one problem with EIC, only the people who qualify for it while raising children. Also, Tex, let's get something straight, you do not live in the "real" world. Most of us pay for health insurance and don't have access to commisaries and all of the other various benefits given to military personnel. Most of us don't get free housing or a housing allowance or hardship pay or TDY pay,etc,etc. You are 100% correct, you are in the position to have children at your husbands income level in your current situation, but answer me this; can you imagine paying out of pocket for all of your current benefits. Let's say your husband tires of the army (thanks very much for your and his service by the way!!) and decides to get out. Could you honestly live on the $35,548.00 maximum that qualifies for these programs and entitlements. I was Air Force from 87-91. It was a huge shot of reality when I got out and realized the real cost of living without federal employee benefits. I know just where you are coming from when you talk about the "real" pay of military personnel when benefits are included. I vividly recall my annual statement showing us how much our employment was really worth with all benefits considered (of course at the time, ti seemed a bit over stated). Aside from that, due to the generally low pay of military personnel, most military towns have an inherently low cost of living unless of course they are in a major metropolitan area in which case the military may pay extra for the higher cost of living.

I mean Tex, I gave you numbers for people that live in a real world situation, you are military and hardly qualified to comment on the $35,548.00 limitation. But those people that are in the scenario that I showed above that have $105.00 to pay for food, clothing and incidentals are very different from you. If my kid goes to the optometrist and needs a new pair of glasses, it's not free for me as it is for you. It's going to cost me around $300.00. Now let's say my kid goes out and breaks those glasses in two weeks, I won't have to pay for a new exam, but it's the frames that cost the most, so there's another $200.00. Now let's say my other child goes to the dentist and needs braces. I have dental insurance, but guess what Tex? In the "real" world most dental insurance policies have individual maximums of $1,000.00 per family member. Guess what? I'll be about $4,000.00 short of what I need. I could go on and on and on. I guess I misspoke to locamama considering she is military, but I stand by my comments as regards anyone living in the real world.

Thanks again for your service Tex, you and your husband earn every benefit that you recieve and then some, but in the real world, $35,548.00 is precious little money when we don't have the federal government as our rich relative to pay for most of life's necessities.

But one thing is definitely true, there's always going to be two types of people in this world; the people who live off of government benefits and people like my wife and I that work hard enough to pay for ourselves, our children AND contribute enough so the former group can continue to live off the government.

because the more students they have that qualify (i.e., more low income students), the more funding the school will receive

You make it sound almost as though they receive MORE money if someone is low income which is not the case. These administrators may simply have the same mentality as dentists or doctors that prefer Medicare and Medicaid recipients. While the government is a slow moving bureaucracy, they do reimburse and probably ask fewer questions than most private insurers. Perhaps that's why administrators like reduced cost lunches; guaranteed money from the government. And like most people of that mentality, they think government money grows on trees. They tend to forget that people like my wife and I contributed that money while paying for our own children’s lunches.

One other thing Tex, please don’t get the impression that I am “well off” or at least that I was born that way. As I mentioned earlier, I have lived as an Airman 1st Class in the Air Force, later as a $15,000.00 a year fast food assistant manager, a waiter, a delivery driver and after many years, the operations manager for a food manufacturer in Atlanta. In fact, I am now the number two man in the same company that hired me as a delivery driver. I got here by hard work and dedication to my job and my family. Because I used to be an Airman 1st Class and other jobs that earned less then $20,000.00, I guess I appreciate money a little bit more than others (I’ve known what is like to not have it). I took my time, had my children as I could afford them and I now enjoy the ability to raise them without the assistance of the federal government, in fact, I would say the federal government needs me a lot more than I need them.

I repeat, I have no problem with safety nets, but it is undeniable that many people use goverment "assistance" as a way of life and as a means to afford children that they would otherwsie be unable to.

Wow. A lot to address.

First and foremost I have four children in school, you will not be able to lecture me on this stuff. If a school has a choice between a parent that pays for several weeks in advance rather than a child for whom a slow moving beauracray will be paying, I am sure they will take me any day.

What we have here is "I assume that" (you) vs. school administrators say (me).

The reason why I am so adamant about this is because I have heard the same spiel in several schools, otherwise I'd chalk it up to a specific school or administration. I don't know how much info can be found on this by poking around the net, but if you can provide a link showing me the error of my belief, I'll gladly concede.

It's not a big deal to me one way or the other, it's just been my experience (with several schools) that parents are strongly encouraged to apply for the reduced lunches. (Just an FYI...my kids do not receive reduced lunches)

I guess we could argue forever about our impressions and never agree.

Exactly. Unless either one of us comes up with something conclusive, this could go on forever.

have not one problem with EIC, only the people who qualify for it while raising children.

So, you don't have a problem with "wealth redistribution" (which is what EIC is), but you DO have a problem with parents raising their children modestly.

Also, Tex, let's get something straight, you do not live in the "real" world.

A) Don't try telling me that the military is not the "real" world. My husband puts his life on the line for this country. My children and I go for long periods without him, worrying everyday. We still have bills to pay and obligations. I'd put my family's sacrifices and difficulties up against those of the family of an investment banker or 7/11 clerk any day. If you wish to continue this discussion with me, please don't be so patronizing and condescending.

We've lived the civilian life. I'm well-acquainted, thank you.

Could you honestly live on the $35,548.00 maximum that qualifies for these programs and entitlements.

Before my husband joined up, we were both employed full time and working on our degrees. We had a monthly income of around $2,700. That's LESS than $35K a year.

Rent, $600, Utilities, $100, Car pymt $330, Child care $300, Gas $120, Groceries $400, Phone $40, Cell Phones $65, Cable $35, Internet $20, Auto Insurance $200

We had nearly $600 left over for incidentals, including doctor's visits, clothing, etc.

Our children were well-provided for through our own hard work and meager earnings. Just because it's not up to YOUR standard of living does NOT make it irresponsible.

Aside from that, due to the generally low pay of military personnel, most military towns have an inherently low cost of living unless of course they are in a major metropolitan area in which case the military may pay extra for the higher cost of living.

Actually, we live in a VERY high cost of living area (hence the COLA). Gas for nearly $4, check. Milk at nearly $5 a gallon, check. Crappy two bedroom apartments for $1400 a month, check.

I mean Tex, I gave you numbers for people that live in a real world situation, you are military and hardly qualified to comment on the $35,548.00 limitation.

DO NOT give me the "not qualified to comment" suggestion. My husband has been in for about 2 years. That leaves an awful lot of time prior to joining the service where we lived in the civilian world (civilian does not = the only life that's real, sorry, but that's BS).

If my kid goes to the optometrist and needs a new pair of glasses, it's not free for me as it is for you. It's going to cost me around $300.00. Now let's say my kid goes out and breaks those glasses in two weeks, I won't have to pay for a new exam, but it's the frames that cost the most, so there's another $200.00. Now let's say my other child goes to the dentist and needs braces. I have dental insurance, but guess what Tex? In the "real" world most dental insurance policies have individual maximums of $1,000.00 per family member. Guess what? I'll be about $4,000.00 short of what I need.

I don't know what kind of benefits you think the military gets, but we'd be out about the same amount as you. Our insurance pays for a portion (not the whole thing) of our civilian optometry care. Glasses, contacts exams and prescriptions, all that...out of pocket.

We don't get free dental. We have a dental policy that we purchased. We pay a monthly premium and a co-pay for our dental work. I've spent several hundred dollars over the past year on dental services. Puhleeze.

Thanks again for your service Tex, you and your husband earn every benefit that you receive and then some, but in the real world, $35,548.00 is precious little money when we don't have the federal government as our rich relative to pay for most of life's necessities.

Don't thank me and talk down to me in the same sentence. Your underlying resentment and disdain for the military seems apparent.

These administrators may simply have the same mentality as dentists or doctors that prefer Medicare and Medicaid recipients. While the government is a slow moving bureaucracy, they do reimburse and probably ask fewer questions than most private insurers. Perhaps that's why administrators like reduced cost lunches; guaranteed money from the government.

Perhaps.

As I mentioned earlier, I have lived as an Airman 1st Class in the Air Force

And you understand supporting a family in the military because you were a single E3 in the air force in the late 80s? I'm not quite sure how that works.

Because I used to be an Airman 1st Class and other jobs that earned less then $20,000.00, I guess I appreciate money a little bit more than others (I’ve known what is like to not have it).

It doesn't seem like an appreciation as much as it is snobbery and elitism. Who are you to tell people that they aren't allowed to have a family and live modestly?

I repeat, I have no problem with safety nets, but it is undeniable that many people use goverment "assistance" as a way of life and as a means to afford children that they would otherwsie be unable to.

Receiving EIC is NOT using government assistance as a way of life. It's a tax benefit that is thrust on them whether they want it or not.

I apologize for being sharp and rude, but many of your comments have been incredibly condescending, and I've had a hard time not reflecting that back in my reply to you.

Okay Tex, I can speak from even better experience than you if you have a mere two years in the Army. I was an Army brat for ten years. My father was in Vietnam when I was born at Martin Army hospital on Fort Benning, I vividly recall growing up on Fort Belvoir and later on Fort Bragg. I served for three years active and two reserve myself. Please do not accuse me ever again of disdain for the military. I can merely speak from 13 years of experience that the benefits mean much more than you seem to want to give credit for.

Before my husband joined up, we were both employed full time and working on our degrees. We had a monthly income of around $2,700. That's LESS than $35K a year. Rent, $600, Utilities, $100, Car pymt $330, Child care $300, Gas $120, Groceries $400, Phone $40, Cell Phones $65, Cable $35, Internet $20, Auto Insurance $200 We had nearly $600 left over for incidentals, including doctor's visits, clothing, etc.

Was that $2,700.00 before or after tax, if so you made much more than 35k and if not you had much less than $600 for incidentals. $600.00 rent? Very hard to find in metro Atlanta. $100.00 for utilities? Please tell me where, I'm moving. $300.00 child care? I've never found day care at less than $125.00 per week for an infant and I've been looking for 14 years now. Groceries $400.00? Seems like I spend that on formula alone sometimes. What you left out was diapers, baby powder, liquid tylenol (unfortunately not available as hand me downs). How about laundry soap, bath soap, shampoo, conditioner, razors, toothpaste (I'm just burning up your so-called incidentals money). I don't know about you poor people (my dad's military career is such a distant memory) but us rich folk tend to bathe so those last items are kinda handy.

Just wondering; where did you dig up money for tuition and books?

eric:

Okay Tex, I can speak from even better experience than you if you have a mere two years in the Army. I was an Army brat for ten years.

"better experience"? Huh? Mere two years and my husband's an E5. WE must be doing something right with our military life, doncha think?

Please do not accuse me ever again of disdain for the military.

Please do not show disdain for the military and I won't accuse you of such.

I can merely speak from 13 years of experience that the benefits mean much more than you seem to want to give credit for.

Benefits we DO receive: commissary prices designed to be about 20% lower than civilian (savings of about $80/mo), tax free purchases at AAFES -- prices are often higher than WM (savings of about $10/mo), health care -- healthy family, but lets just say we average one doctor visit and two prescriptions a month (savings of about $200), federal tax advantage on allowances (savings of about $158/mo), gas prices designed to be about 2 cents lower than civilian (savings of about $1)

About $449 a month. There ya go. There's your mysterious benefits.

Housing, BAS, and COLA are part of the pay. Earned. Hard earned.

(BTW, what about the added expenses of military life like dry cleaning, gear purchases, sewing, hair cuts, etc.)

Was that $2,700.00 before or after tax, if so you made much more than 35k and if not you had much less than $600 for incidentals.

That was before tax, my apologies. We never had a problem with incidentals. Our paydays lined up such that we were paid every week (we were both paid biweekly, but on different schedules), and while we didn't live in the lap of luxury, I don't remember ever having a problem providing for any needs.

$600.00 rent?

You may not have realized this, but not everyone lives in Altanta. Amarillo, Texas, "Crossings at Bell" apartments, $600/mo, 2 bedroom, 2 bath.

$100.00 for utilities? Please tell me where, I'm moving.

Small apartment, small utility bill. When you work and go to school all day, you don't tend to use a whole lot of electricity.

$300.00 child care? I've never found day care at less than $125.00 per week for an infant and I've been looking for 14 years now.

My mom kept my children. I paid her the amount I had been paying the daycare center before she was able to keep them. $300.

Groceries $400.00? Seems like I spend that on formula alone sometimes.

My children were not infants, but you wouldn't be spending $400 on formula if your wife had breastfed your child. It's free and extraordinarily beneficial for the infant.

Groceries $400. I don't know what your family eats, but $400 fed my family just fine.

What you left out was diapers, baby powder, liquid tylenol (unfortunately not available as hand me downs).

You mean art lessons ($80 per quarter), school t-shirts and fundraisers ($15 or so per month), laundry soap and quarters for the laundromat ($50/mo), hygiene and household cleaning items ($20/mo), CDs and toys and trips to Mickey Ds ($100), wow...and there's still money for more STUFF! I can get the oil changed! I can go to the doctor's office! Yipee!

Basic budgeting and smart shopping go a long way, dude. You don't have to be wealthy in order to provide for your family.

(my dad's military career is such a distant memory)

And yet, you claim to recall it all so clearly now, what with your infinite wisdom about the military.

Just wondering; where did you dig up money for tuition and books?

I robbed a bank.

A combination Scholarships, Pell Grants, and Student Loans. Additionally, I attended a state University, saving $5,000 or more per semester. It can be done.

little whip:

Okay Tex, I can speak from even better experience than you if you have a mere two years in the Army.

Oh really sir/ madam? Then you need a refresher course.

If my kid goes to the optometrist and needs a new pair of glasses, it's not free for me as it is for you. It's going to cost me around $300.00. Now let's say my kid goes out and breaks those glasses in two weeks, I won't have to pay for a new exam, but it's the frames that cost the most, so there's another $200.00. Now let's say my other child goes to the dentist and needs braces. I have dental insurance, but guess what Tex? In the "real" world most dental insurance policies have individual maximums of $1,000.00 per family member. Guess what? I'll be about $4,000.00 short of what I need. I don't know what kind of benefits you think the military gets, but we'd be out about the same amount as you. Our insurance pays for a portion (not the whole thing) of our civilian optometry care. Glasses, contacts exams and prescriptions, all that...out of pocket. We don't get free dental. We have a dental policy that we purchased. We pay a monthly premium and a co-pay for our dental work. I've spent several hundred dollars over the past year on dental services. Puhleeze

ONLY the military "member" gets it for free. That is unless it's changed since 1981 (correct me if I'm wrong Tex)?

drmiler: No, you're correct. The service member gets free optometry and glasses (a choice of only a few styles, but they have been testing upgrades this year) as well as free dental care. Some service members also receive free lasix or PRK (my husband had the surgery because he was deploying, and glasses and contacts are not desirable in the combat zone).

Under Tricare Prime (which not all service members' families have, btw), eye injuries are covered, as are a basic annual check up. Exams for contact lenses must be paid out of pocket. Glasses and contacts are all out of pocket expenses.

Concordia Dental is opt in. There is a monthly premium and a check up every six months is covered. Dental services (fillings, surgeries, etc) require a co-pay (based on pay grade, if I'm not mistaken, with the lowest required co-pay being 20%). Like all other insurance programs, not everything is covered and there are many out of pocket expenses.

Being in the military does not mean you are exempt from all the life expenses and obligations that civilians have. Things like Tricare are compensation for the service member's skill, effort, and the extraordinary demands of the job. It's not a "FREE benefit" so much as it is an alternate form of pay.

PS - Drmiler...very pleased I could back you up on something.

tell me this tex, does your health insurance compare to this?

Link

Let's see, I've taken the liberty of applying at Aetna for insurance for a family of four. We have a nice plan staring at the low monthly price of $281.00. Now we do have an annual deductible of $10,000.00 per family after which the 20% co-pay kicks in. Or let's look at the next plan, if you are willing to pay $9.00 more per month ($280.00) then you eliminate the co-pay yet keep the $10,000.00 deductible (quite a chunk out of the old 35k huh?).

But hark!! they offer a plan that has a deductible less than 10% of your annual income at $3,000.00 per family, unfortunately your rate just jumped to $411.00 while you continue to pay the 20% co-pay up to $3,000.00. So let's see, you have $411.00 per month ($4,932.00 annually) and an annual deductible of ($6,000.00) for a grand total of $10,932.00 or roughly 31.2% of you annual gross income.

I talked with my sister down at Benning on the way home. You are really painting a much bleaker picture than is realistic. My sister says they are deducted $19.00 for dental, as you said, two free cleanings and she mentioned an annual full mouth x-ray. She says that dentists must charge a set fee and that your co-pay is 20% (she just paid $140.00 out of pocket for a root canal). There is no charge for the health insurance for military dependents and she tells me that while there is a 5-10 dollar co-pay for prescriptions, there is no co-pay for emergency or doctor vists. I illustrated above that paying out of pocket for premiums, co-pays and deductibles is a $10,000.00 investment for a family of four (unless you are very healthy).

This is not to demean the military or it's members. Every single American soldier and their families are my personal heros and the benefits and pay they receive are not enough if you ask me. But the simple fact that I originally tried to illustrate before you painted me an anti-military, rich, elitist is that it is unrealistic for a family of four to exist on $35,548.00 in the civilian world. You have nearly made my point by illustrating that your "real" family income is more like 50-60k and you still have to budget and save for a dental procedure, yet you feel it's appropriate to have two children in the civiian world while earning 15-25k less than your current "real" income.

Being in the military does not mean you are exempt from all the life expenses and obligations that civilians have. Things like Tricare are compensation for the service member's skill, effort, and the extraordinary demands of the job. It's not a "FREE benefit" so much as it is an alternate form of pay.

Ergo you don't really live on 35k per year then do you?

eric: I've NEVER had private insurance. When my children were babies we had Medicaid. That's it. The rest of the time we paid out of pocket.

And guess what? It didn't cost anywhere NEAR $11K a year. We probably spent less than $1K on medical care any given year. I don't have sickly kids. My husband and I are both healthy adults.

I'm really sorry that your family requires so much medical care. I suppose if my family was like that I'd be freaked out about it, too.

I talked with my sister down at Benning on the way home.

Hahaha. Now you have a sister in the military? Ok, sure.

My sister says they are deducted $19.00 for dental

There's NO "they deduct". It's insurance. Optional. Not mandatory.

Our premium is $25, not $19. Insurance doesn't cover everything. It's just like any other insurance policy you buy. You'll notice I covered it in detail above, so I'm not going to reiterate. I'm not sure what your point is here. It's dental insurance. It's no big boon for us.

As far as health care goes, it's free if you see your PCM on base or a physician from the list. Just like any HMO, it's very specific about who can see you and what can be done.

Prescriptions provided on base are fully covered (surprised your "military sister" didn't tell you this). Generic prescriptions are around $3 at an approved pharmacy, name brand is much more.

Health care benefits are EARNED by the service member. Why you refuse to acknowledge this is beyond me.

This is not to demean the military or it's members. Every single American soldier and their families are my personal heros and the benefits and pay they receive are not enough if you ask me.

BULLSHIT! If that were true, you would not be claiming that we have all these "FREE" benefits that make our lives so nice and tidy. You wouldn't be insisting that it's not like the "real world".

But the simple fact that I originally tried to illustrate before you painted me an anti-military, rich, elitist is that it is unrealistic for a family of four to exist on $35,548.00 in the civilian world.

I didn't illustrate you as anything. I wrote about an elitist attitude that concerns me. If you saw yourself reflected in that article, then perhaps you should do some self contemplation.

You have nearly made my point by illustrating that your "real" family income is more like 50-60k and you still have to budget and save for a dental procedure, yet you feel it's appropriate to have two children in the civiian world while earning 15-25k less than your current "real" income.

$50-$60K in Hawaii is different than $50-$60K on the mainland. Understand this. We make enough money to be comfortable, but we do not have a lot of flashy things. Our lifestyle is fairly modest. Better than some, worse than others.

Budget and save for a dental procedure? What?

I've had several (expensive) dental procedures in the past year, and each time I've paid them out in installments. That's what regular people do. That's what people who make $35K and under do. This is not rocket science, dude.

Ergo you don't really live on 35k per year then do you?

I never claimed that we currently live on $35K. You're all over the map with this one.

Actually my sister is not the one in the military, it's her husband. He's a major (don't hold it against him, he was orignially enlisted but earned his degree and went to OCS 12 years ago) and is indeed currently serving at Fort Benning.

Really Tex, cut through the al the arguements and do this; I'm sure your good at internet reasearch. Pretend that you are getting out of the service, moving to Atlanta and you've secured a job earning 35k for the family. Find yoursef a house or apartment, check health insurance rates, cost of operating a car (you will be commuting because you will NEVER afford anything anywere near town), utility costs, etc.

While threre may be areas in the country in which one can live well on 35k, I just have my doubts it can be done anywhere near a metrpolitan center where many welfare recipients reside (for example New Orleans).

If you doubt my famiy history, I would glady exchange phone numbers by way of email, hell I can make the call free for you all the way from Hawaii with my company's 800 number. We could even three way my non-existent miitary sister and compare notes on the value of military benefits. She might even team up with you at least to ridicule me for being a former Air Force wuss while her husband "works" for a living in the Army. In fact, after discussing this with my sister I'm sure she would love to get your point of view. She has some pretty firm beiefs about being able to not just "provide" for her children, but also ensuring that they are raised in an area that will provide good schools and a safe environment. This is not to say that it is impossible to find housing for $600 per month while providing a safe environment with good schools, but the odds are against you.

Seriously though, as sincerely as I can possiby say, I would love the opportunity to speak to you on the phone and first and foremost thank you and your husband for his service and secondly to discuss this issue with the additional point of view of my sister that has been a military wife for 12 years. I think you would find that I'm a lot nicer guy than you may have gathered from this post that I just happen to feel very strongly about. If you would like, just tell me where I could email you my 800 number and let's discuss this in a manner that I much prefer to typing.

BULLSHIT! If that were true, you would not be claiming that we have all these "FREE" benefits that make our lives so nice and tidy. You wouldn't be insisting that it's not like the "real world".

Tex, you of all people should know that you do not live in the real world. You and every one of your neighbors is a famiy with a man or woman who may very well one day put their life on the line for our country. No, you don't live in the real world.

I thought that was the point of the overhaul of welfare they did a few years back. My understanding was that there was a time limit on how long you can recieve benefits so it wouldn't become a lifestyle. Is this not the case?

Loca,

The "overhaul" is not all it was made out to be, trust me

I have no idea HOW, exactly, but there are some that have found ways to continually manipulate the system. Meanwhile, there are others who (firsthand experience here) had to LITERALLY beg, ON MY KNEES, in order to be allowed into a metting to receive benefits (not my best moment, I grant you, but we were literally on the brink of homelessness through circumstances beyond our control).

Personally the fact that the system designed to be a "safety net" for cases such as ours failed us so badly when we so desperately needed it only further underscores the need for privatization (and to those who say our circumstances were by CHOICE, while you're technically correct, exercising the CHOICES that would have maintained my job would have, in all probability, resulted in the death of our then unborn baby, in all POSSIBILITY resulted in the death or serious injury of my wife, and almost CERTAINLY resulted in my incarceration for the medical neglect of both of the above. Some choice, huh?)

EIC: Okay Tex, you are gonna make me have to say it like it is. If you truly qualify for EIC (as in you are a low income married couple, not a single mom hiding the babies daddie's income to rip off the government) then I would say that even though you are not abusing an entitlement, you are still irresponsible for having children unless of course you qualify for the EIC only because you have experienced a job loss. But plain and simple, if you have a child while qualifying for these programs, you are irresponsible.

OK, this is a load of finely tuned BS. Just because your income levels are low enough for you to qualify for EIC does NOT mean you do not make enough money to have children. In case you weren't aware, the EIC benefit for a married family with two children tops out at over $30,000...more than ample income in many areas of the country to raise a family.

EIC, for all its flaws, actually encourages responsible behaviour. By paying more for married couples than for unmarried, it encourages families to stay married and thus (in theory at least) curbs one of the major risk factors for generational poverty. Furthermore, you can't receive EIC unless you actually EARN money, which means it encourages families to be out working, earning money.

Don't get me wrong. EIC, along with many other entitlement programs, needs to go. But of the personal entitlement programs out there, EIC is one of the most benign.