The vast majority of the enemy forces, from what I'm able to glean, is Islamic insurgents coming from outside that nation.

that's actually not true...i've read several things out of the pentagon lately saying that they're capturing and killing more iraqis than foreigners these days.

fucking

My my my...aren't we just the little pottymouth?

Or should I say "FoulMouth"?

That's right, dabe...other people have shown up here with opposing viewpoints that you can't debate, so just decamp to another place rather than stand and discuss. Typical, typical....

While I have the greatest respect for American and British soldiers who give their lives in foreign countries (my own home was one of the targets and I owe my freedom to these soldiers), I resent the implication that American lives should be valued higher as the lives of Iraqis who are now alive because of the invasion.

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php

Another implication is that this invasion started the bloodbath in Iraq, which is simply not true. What is true is that Iraq was much worse before the invasion. We are just not used to crying over dead Arabs and Kurds.

http://www.massgraves.info/

Iraq is a debacle only if one assumes that saving lives takes no sacrifices or that saving Arab and Kurdish lives is worthy of no such sacrifice.

I have never made such a sacrifice, but I have grown up under American occupation. And I am thankful for each American who risked his life to make that possible. I am sad about each American who died while removing Hitler from power, but I am glad that these sacrifices were made and that Hitler was removed.

Previously fightng factions have put aside their differences and have come together to fight a common enemy (America. Shouldn't we take that as a sign that we're not wanted there?

--dharma

Maybe I'm missing something here, sorry. I know about the factions, but were they factions from/in Iraq or coming from without? Sorry....brain's farting here. Somebody help me out.

that's actually not true...i've read several things out of the pentagon lately saying that they're capturing and killing more iraqis than foreigners these days.

--Myrr

How come you're so willing to accept data from the military that bolsters your opinions, but quickly dismiss it when it doesn't?
If the Pentagon said that we were killing 100,000 insurgents a week and were winning a glorious victory, would you be so willing to accept it?

I have no desire to argue with you about how I feel about the Iraq debaucle. You already know my feelings. So, now just carry on conversations among yourselves and pat yourselves on the back for the wonderful killing spree we are undertaking for the name of dubya and his fucking oil obsession.

But apparently you do desire getting off on the porn it is creating for you. Yes, I already know your sick feelings and personally, I think you should be in prison with the rest of those who molest others for fun.

And quit feigning outrage or "wounding" you didn't post these pictures for any other reason than to get off on their shock value. Well you won't get shock from me, only disgust at your inhuman lust for bloody pictures.

Yes, peace takes courage, and standing up for what you believe is part of that. Protest this war and I will support your right to my death. Parade the wounds of these volunteers as if you had the right, and I will speak just as strongly against you and your depravity.

If I walked up to a woman who just had an abortion and put a fetus in her face and said, "See what your hatred has done!" You would call me a monster. Well, what is the difference between that sicko and YOU!

I resent the implication that American lives should be valued higher as the lives of Iraqis who are now alive because of the invasion.

---Leauki

This was never said or implied here or anywhere that I'm aware of. If you got this from something I wrote, I apologize.
Other than that, beautifully said, Leauki...beautifully said.

Yes, peace takes courage, and standing up for what you believe is part of that. Protest this war and I will support your right to my death. Parade the wounds of these volunteers as if you had the right, and I will speak just as strongly against you and your depravity. If I walked up to a woman who just had an abortion and put a fetus in her face and said, "See what your hatred has done!" You would call me a monster. Well, what is the difference between that sicko and YOU!

---PT2K

Well said.

But apparently you do desire getting off on the porn it is creating for you. Yes, I already know your sick feelings and personally, I think you should be in prison with the rest of those who molest others for fun.

That is cruel Ted.. why bring this to such a personal level? It is Dabe's right to be opposed to the war, as are many others. It is her right to post those pictures to show the horrors of that war. You make it sound as if it is she that is waging the war.

Rightwinger, I did not think that you made such a remark.

I just think that, in general, when you (as in "when one") count American lives among the thousands who die or have died, and then announce that it wasn't worth it, regardless of the other lives saved, you would imply that American lives are worth more than the others.

Rightwinger, I did not think that you made such a remark.

Rightwinger says many things that he did not say Leuki....

other people have shown up here with opposing viewpoints that you can't debate,

It's not about not being able to debate. That's absurd. Why waste my time. You don't want to debate. You just want to show me the error of my thinking. Blow that..............

Is the Pentagon saying we're winning a "glorious victory?" Or is this just some hypothetical nonsense made to prove your point?

I take every piece of news I read with a grain of salt, no matter the source.

I think the furthur question here is, if the insurgency is a majority of foreigners, why was Saddam so much more capable at keeping them out than the USA? Saddam's never been a big fan of Islamists nor they of him.

As usual this thread has disintegrated into personal insults. It never fails....someone speaks out against the war, and they're immediately labelled as 'foolish' or a 'moron' or 'looney luddite leftie'.

I'm against the war in iraq, for a number of reasons. So, you can apply all those names and insults to me too.

You don't want to debate. You just want to show me the error of my thinking.

For once, I agree.

I think you should be in prison with the rest of those who molest others for fun.

Great. Let's just imprison all the dubya protesters. Forget about the First Amendment. Forget about the democracy we are supposedly fighting for. May as well just admit you'd prefer a fascist nation. It would be so much tidier for you, wouldn't it?

You don't want to debate. You just want to show me the error of my thinking. For once, I agree.

Thank you, Dharma!

As usual this thread has disintegrated into personal insults. It never fails....someone speaks out against the war, and they're immediately labelled as 'foolish' or a 'moron' or 'looney luddite leftie'.

Just shows the intolerance of some of the conservatives here Karen. If you have a weak argument then go for the name calling. It gets you nowhere, solves nothing and only causes ill feelings in the community.
It's sad. War is hell...there is no other way to describe it. No one likes it, but too often those that start it try to justify it even if they are wrong. There is no right or wrong in the case of war. War is bad and nothing anyone says will ever change that.

Rightwinger says many things that he did not say Leuki....

Oooh....how wise, Master Yoda. I say what I mean, if that bothers some, or if some want to read more into it than is there, I'm very sorry.

I think the furthur question here is, if the insurgency is a majority of foreigners, why was Saddam so much more capable at keeping them out than the USA? Saddam's never been a big fan of Islamists nor they of him.

Saddam was an outcast among Islamics, true, but he, himself, was still an Islamic. It's a case of 'we'd rather have one of our own, no matter how bad, than you.'

As usual this thread has disintegrated into personal insults. It never fails....someone speaks out against the war, and they're immediately labelled as 'foolish' or a 'moron' or 'looney luddite leftie'. I'm against the war in iraq, for a number of reasons. So, you can apply all those names and insults to me too.

Maybe so, but I'd never apply them to you.
You're not a nutcase opposing the war on general principles (because you'd find literally any peace better than none, in other words) or simply because you don't like Bush, as so many do. You're in the game for keeps, and it affects you more personally than many of those anti-war horn blowers and pot-bangers around here, who are only against it for their own reasons. Your opinion (and Tex's, for that matter) matters more to me than any of the others'.

Your opinion (and Tex's, for that matter) matters more to me than any of the others'.

that was not the case with you a few days ago....

that was not the case with you a few days ago....

A guy can change, can't he?
Besides, I never really meant to dismiss her opinions as I did. things just got out of hand. See my "open letter" apology to her if you want.

A guy can change, can't he? Besides, I never really meant to dismiss her opinions as I did. things just got out of hand. See my "open letter" apology to her if you want.

Yes he can...and I saw your letter, but I don't see any change in your attitude or way of discussing things with one who might disagree with you.

Just shows the intolerance of some of the conservatives here Karen. If you have a weak argument then go for the name calling. It gets you nowhere, solves nothing and only causes ill feelings in the community.

Where is the name-calling? I know I called her a potty-mouth, yes, but she is....such language is completely uncalled for in a polite discusion. It had nothing to do with her political views.

You're in the game for keeps, and it affects you more personally than many of those anti-war horn blowers and pot-bangers around here, who are only against it for their own reasons.

I guess one has to be a military spouse in order for you to accept their feelings against the war. All others are just "anti-war horn blowers". I've got news for you. That is so hypocritical. Just because Karen is not as vocal as me, and I do understand that, as she likely has lots of conflicting stuff going on in her life, does not make her any less credible an anti-war advocate. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds and it is dispicable.

(Karen, I know I am being rather presumptuous here. Please tell me if I am out of line.)

Rightwinger

no one is pointing a finger at you. Name calling in general seems to be the dominant way of trying to win arguments here on JU lately. No one said it was you that was doing it.... this is not a Rightwinger vs. everyone else thread... so don't try to make it one.

Where is the name-calling? I know I called her a potty-mouth, yes, but she is....such language is completely uncalled for in a polite discusion. It had nothing to do with her political views.

Insults are deemed "polite" in your mind, as long as they don't include swear words? Hmmmmmmmmm.............. This is what you call "polite discussion?" Obviously, we've had very different upbringings.

You'll still be bitching, because it's what you do best

.... and unfortunately someone else's political porn.

.... you choose to exploit for your own political purposes

Well you won't get shock from me, only disgust at your inhuman lust for bloody pictures.

.... and I will speak just as strongly against you and your depravity.

many of those anti-war horn blowers and pot-bangers around here, who are only against it for their own reasons.

And, I'm sure I missed a few in this thread. Yeah, polite, my ass.