Peace Takes Courage

Thanks for posting that Dabe.... and you are right... Peace DOES take courage!
The jingos think it's all about bashing bush. Of course, it's not. It's about holding him and hs cronies accountable for the death and carnage they and their conflicts-of-interest have wrought.
Bless you!

That moved me to tears, Dabe.

It's easy to forget that those who die are PEOPLE. Someone's father, son, brother, husband, lover....they have familes and friends and lives away from the military and the war. There are many more people affected by their deaths than we care to think about.......

There are many more people affected by their deaths than we care to think about.......

this is way to often forgotten.

this is way to often forgotten.

I know. People see names and faces of those who have given their lives for this stupid war, but they forget that attached to those names and faces are personalities, possessions, relatives, friends, colleagues, acquaintances.....the list of people affected is endless. It's like dropping a pebble into a calm pond...the ripples that are caused by the pebble falling go on and on.

Yes, I called this war 'stupid'. I don't think that America should still be there, and I question our being there in the first place. Americans are dying every day there...and for what? What benefit will Americans see come from this?

Yes, I called this war 'stupid'.

You are not alone Karen... and YOU have more right than most to say what you did.

You are not alone Karen... and YOU have more right than most to say what you did.

I love the way armchair quarterbacks can sit and say "well, ah, the guv'ment should do this, and ah, we're need to send troops here and there and...". Yeah, it's real easy to sit and to talk, but it's not so easy to do. I've been directly affected by this farcical conflict, and I'll continue to be directly affected by it for the forseeable future, and I think it's wrong. I wodner how many armchasir quarterbacks opinions would change if they were in my shoes.

I wodner how many armchasir quarterbacks opinions would change if they were in my shoes.

thats' why they say... "walk a mile in her shoes"!

All I can say to you Karen is that I hope and pray that Dave never becomes one of those statistics. May you and Dave,and your wonderful children all grow old together in a world at peace.
We can make it happen!

May you and Dave,and your wonderful children all grow old together in a world at peace. We can make it happen!

Amen!!

although contrary to opinion I never thought we should be there, war sucks ,

Dabe, had to stop viewing after three pictures, brought up to many bad memories for me.

As someone that bathed in blood long ago on a different foreign shore, I have always remembered the price of war.

I hope and pray that Dave never becomes one of those statistics.

Me too....but the longer this stupidity goes on, the greater the chance of that happening.

MM: I salute you and your sacrifice, sir. It's people like you that allow me and mine to live the way we do today.

War is hell, and not just for the comabatants themselves. I pray all the time for the families of those involved, and especially those killed, in the course of this conflict. At the same time, I don't deny the necessity of it.

If it were still Iraqis we were fighting, I might agree with you, dharma (and please don't think I'm discounting what you've said here....we've been on the same side quite a bit...just not here. You have a unique right to see things the way you do), but it's not. The vast majority of the enemy forces, from what I'm able to glean, is Islamic insurgents coming from outside that nation. They come to "liberate" Iraq from the demoracy it seeks to establish. "Liberating from democracy" is almost an oxymoron, from my perspective.
The insurgents we fight would have Iraq go back to its old ways...a tyrannical dictatorship that oppresses its people and keeps them down by means of terror and violence. Also, they would install an Islamic theocracy. Why would you support that, Dabe? Your side constantly wars against religion in our democracy, after all. The insurgents would end the growth of a government that would give a measure of equality and fairness to both genders...something that women rarely benefit from in that part of the world. I should say "traditionally" benefit.

This "farcical war" is necessary....America will rework the entire goepolitcial face of the MidEast if this is successful, and democracy thrives there. We removed Iraq as a supporter of terrorism against the West. Why have there been no attacks against America since the war started? It's been four years and they've had many opportunities. Could it be we're keeping them somewhat bogged down with their efforts over there? I don't know, Dabe, but I know that your arguments would carry more weight if there had been more smoking craters and broken bodies over here in the last four years.

You know, it annoys me that the same side that censored the Twin Towers newscasts to cut out the shots of bodies dropping from the upper floors as people sought to escape, because it might generate hatred and anger toward Islamics and Middle-Easterners among the general population, would use graphic violence and such when it works toward their purposes.

Peace does indeed take courage, but someone should tell that to the insurgents...you know...those who represent the "religion of peace"?

I don't know, Dabe, but I know that your arguments would carry more weight if there had been more smoking craters and broken bodies over here in the last four years.

that is the most ridiculous comment ever made here on JU.

and... Just who is the "WE" you are talking about? I don't see a uniform on you, but see one on Dave.

Yes Dabe, war is an awful decision to have to consider, and no one should take that decision lightly... on the other hand, no leader should be so gripped by images like this that they fear doing what's right... and no political hack should use the bravery and sacrifice of these soldiers for their own pathetic agenda.

"Someone's Parent", "Someone's Child" and unfortunately someone else's political porn.

and no political hack should use the bravery and sacrifice of these soldiers for their own pathetic agenda.

Ted, I think peace should be the political agenda of all of us.

and... Just who is the "WE" you are talking about? I don't see a uniform on you, but see one on Dave.

Maybe not, but I'd wear one with pride and I'd gleefully kill anyone who dared to attack my beloved America and murder her innocent men, women and children in ice-cold blood.
I proudly and happily entered the military (US Army) in 1985, but was handed a medical discharge due to a seizure disorder. The military understandably doesn't like handing epileptics things like automatic weapons and high explosives, something I've regretted very often in the days since Sept. 11th, 2001. Don't fault me for not trying, because if I were able, I'd be there, and happily so, believe me.

Don't fault me for not trying, because if I were able, I'd be there, and happily so, believe me.

I'm not faulting you at all.... I just don't think you should seem as eager as you do to add others to the list of fatalities.

I'm not faulting you at all.... I just don't think you should seem as eager as you do to add others to the list of fatalities.

Why? Because I support my country in its efforts to bring a free and open democracy to a nation that has never known it (and this is partially our fault...after all we put Saddam in power and syuuported his for many years. It was our duty to take him down; he was our Frankenstein) in its entire history, and, in the process, to divert terrorists in their efforts against this country?

See, we can all sit here in our respective democracies (I'd say one would be hardpressed to find anyone here living under a dictatorship) and say "Gee, America is wrong in this! We (or they) shouldn't be impressing their ways on another people!" because we've always had the freedoms we take for granted.
I don't see the media doing a whole lot of "man on the street" interviews coming out of Iraq, in which the reporters are asking their opinions about our efforts at sparking off a democracy for them.
How does the Average Joe-al-Muhammad feel about it all? Anyone?

The vast majority of the enemy forces, from what I'm able to glean, is Islamic insurgents coming from outside that nation. They come to "liberate" Iraq from the demoracy it seeks to establish. "Liberating from democracy" is almost an oxymoron, from my perspective.

Yeah, that's true. In our stupid attempt to remove the WMD's that didn't exist, then instill a democracy in a country where no one wants it at the end of a gun, and now to save the oil fields from the insurgents, we have totally screwed up that country. The insurgents weren't there until we opened the borders for them.

This "farcical war" is necessary....America will rework the entire goepolitcial face of the MidEast if this is successful, and democracy thrives there. We removed Iraq as a supporter of terrorism against the West.

Since when is it America's place to "rework the geopolitical face of the Mideast?" Sounds a whole lot like imperialism to me. And, Iraq may have supported terrorism against the west, but he never perpetrated it. There are lots of countries and people now who have happily filled that function. Saddam was never a supporter of Bin Laden, and certainly not like America's CIA was.

Also, they would install an Islamic theocracy. Why would you support that, Dabe? Your side constantly wars against religion in our democracy, after all.

The interesting thing is that Saddam's Iraq was the only secular Arab country in the Mideast. Not anymore. We've furked that up, too. And, in that it will now be a theocracy, thanks to the dubya dummies, we've lost. We cannot win. All we can do is install political cronies (and we know how good dubya is at doing that), allow them to theocratize the nation as they see fit, then stand back and say Yahoooooo! Mission Accomplished. They now have a democracy that was fixed, with elections wherein no one knew who to vote for, and a puppet government that sanctions theocracy. And, all it costs is $bllions and thousands of lives. What an accomplishment.

You know, it annoys me that the same side that censored the Twin Towers newscasts to cut out the shots of bodies dropping from the upper floors as people sought to escape, because it might generate hatred and anger toward Islamics and Middle-Easterners among the general population, would use graphic violence and such when it works toward their purposes.

WTF are you talking about? This sure is a statement that you obviously pulled out of your ass.

"Someone's Parent", "Someone's Child" and unfortunately someone else's political porn.

Sorry you missed the point

instill a democracy in a country where no one wants it

And you know this for a fact how? As I said, noone in the Bush-bashing media is asking the Iraqis themselves how they feel. How do you know this?

Since when is it America's place to "rework the geopolitical face of the Mideast?" Sounds a whole lot like imperialism to me.

Someone has to, otherwise they'll never get anything done. The worst thing that happened to those poor, backward people was when the western Empires pulled out and left them to their own devices. Nothing but trouble from and for them since.

And, Iraq may have supported terrorism against the west,

Thanks for the support, dabe....that's all you had to say.

Saddam was never a supporter of Bin Laden, and certainly not like America's CIA was.

Well, you know, Iraq and the CIA were both supporting bin Laden at about the same time; back in the 80's when he was working against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It was a worthy cause at the time. Since 1989, the CIA has had little to do with him, which is part of the reason he hates us so much.

The interesting thing is that Saddam's Iraq was the only secular Arab country in the Mideast.

Untrue...Saddam was "God" in Iraq, and kept his divine status by murder and repression. Not anymore, I'm happy to say.

We've furked that up, too. And, in that it will now be a theocracy, thanks to the dubya dummies, we've lost. We cannot win. All we can do is install political cronies (and we know how good dubya is at doing that), allow them to theocratize the nation as they see fit, then stand back and say Yahoooooo! Mission Accomplished. They now have a democracy that was fixed, with elections wherein no one knew who to vote for, and a puppet government that sanctions theocracy. And, all it costs is $bllions and thousands of lives. What an accomplishment.

Whatever dabe.....you don't know any of this for fact. You're speculating based on your own hysterical views. In twenty years, when Iraq is the new Japan and is a flourishing example of a thriving democracy, will you shut up then? No you won't. You'll still be bitching, because it's what you do best. Either that, or you'll smile proudly and say "I knew it all along!" Whatever.

You know, it annoys me that the same side that censored the Twin Towers newscasts to cut out the shots of bodies dropping from the upper floors as people sought to escape, because it might generate hatred and anger toward Islamics and Middle-Easterners among the general population, would use graphic violence and such when it works toward their purposes. WTF are you talking about? This sure is a statement that you obviously pulled out of your ass.

Actually, that's correct, and it came not from his ass. The full extent of the horror and carnage were not made public. This was for two reasons offered at the time: 1) so as not to offend our alleged sensitivities, and 2) so as not to fan the already hot flames of anger toward Muslims. And I believe it is true that many on the left opposed showing the raw images and videos of the WTC horrors, many of them the same folks who are so eager to force us to see the blood of every wounded or killed GI and every coffin arriving at Dover for the sole purpose of fostering a political agenda.

It takes no courage at all to show such pictures. It is also disturbing that such pictures of truly courageous individuals are used in efforts to undermine the very mission for which they sacrificed so much.

Cheers,
Daiwa

This "farcical war" is necessary....America will rework the entire goepolitcial face of the MidEast if this is successful

Yeah, but what right do we have to do that?

Previously fightng factions have put aside their differences and have come together to fight a common enemy (America. Shouldn't we take that as a sign that we're not wanted there?

"Someone's Parent", "Someone's Child" and unfortunately someone else's political porn. Sorry you missed the point

I didn't miss the point at all, I thought I covered your point quite well in the part you didn't quote (where I actually agreed with you)... I merely extended the point. There are many who dismiss the sacrifice and honor of these brave men and women and reduce their wounds and deaths to political statements.

How is attempting to shield the general public from the horrors of war (for fear it will turn people against the war) any different than using the images of these brave men and women to turn people against the war?

These men and woman you choose to exploit for your own political purposes have done enough. Leave them and their families alone. What next, floating, bloated bodies in New Orleans? Is there no depth too lowly?

Think about the families of these people, if this were your son or daughter would you want some boor throwing these images in your face for their own gain?

I have no desire to argue with you about how I feel about the Iraq debaucle. You already know my feelings. So, now just carry on conversations among yourselves and pat yourselves on the back for the wonderful killing spree we are undertaking for the name of dubya and his fucking oil obsession.