What I see in you is a fundamental, down to the bone, prejudice against black people.

You see this in me only because I'm not afraid to tell you how I see it, as concerning the slanted playing field in race relations as they exist today.

Actually, we've been over this once before. You made a claim based on anecdotal evidence. I did not believe your experience applied across the board. I DID NOT go calling the welfare office to ask them whether they are biased toward blacks. Your claim cannot be verified by me without a lot of time, effort, and access on my part.

Sorry if we've touched on this before...I don't remember that particular exchange. If I'm stomping one more time on sacred cows, mea culpa.
As to the "looking into it"...I don't think it would do much good to simply call the welfare office one day and ask about their unofficial race bias, do you? No...it wouldn't. Ask the opinions of people you know. I think you'll be surprised at their responses.

You have not proven your claim. As it stands, it is your anecdotal observation and nothing more. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. And forgive me for assigning the burden of proof to you...the person who made the claim.

I don't have to prove something that everyone (except you, it seems) knows already.

You and yours has no bearing on this. I am not involved in policy making. Your attempt to pin some perceived great ill in American government on me (and my family?) is hollow.

"You and yours" being the weepy-eyed liberals and their cohorts (of which you are one...maybe both)

Please elaborate on this. Have you been turned down for a job because a less-skilled black person was hired instead? Have your welfare benefits been denied and instead given to a black person? Has a college refused to admit you or give you a scholarship in favor of a black person? Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder?

Personally, I have not, but I know several people who fell victim to Affirmative Action and racial quotas. One friend quit a very lucrative job with an airline after he found out his competition for a higher position, a black woman, was given a shorter, easier test than he was (the test was timed, you see).
Another family, friends of ours, were denied welfare benefits, after some friends, a black couple whose circumstances were actually slightly better, had gotten them.
Personally, I find this irritating; perhaps you don't.
These are personal anecdotes, of course, and I have no proof of them as you require it. I know they happened, though, and they deeply color my opinions of race-based programs and the people who receive and/or abuse them.

PS - You may find me naive, but I can tell you this much...I've been through some very tragic and damaging circumstances in my life. I've also managed to overcome everything that's been thrown at me. I have a safe, healthy family, a comfortable lifestyle and a college degree. I've worked my ass off (in many different ways) for these things. I'd appreciate a little bit of respect.

Tex, you have my respect, and always have. It's just the way you blind yourself that annoys me. I just don't understand how you can't know about the welfare thing...it's almost a part of this country's being, the American Experience, for cryin' out loud. Comedians joke about it, as I said. Black comedians!
How can you not know about it, unless you (figuratively speaking, of course) gouge out your eyes and refuse to see it, and scream loud enough to deafen yourself so you don't hear about it? By the way, these would both be considered trait of the Great American Liberal...heh-heh

drmiler...thanks for the support, but I think Tex will pretty much stay the way she is, no matter what we say to her....she kinda likes it in her little bubble, where everything is fair and balanced.

Comedians joke about it, as I said. Black comedians!

Chris Rock has a good routine about the differences between black folks and 'niggahs' (his terminology, not mine). "Black folks pay their bills. Niggahs don't. Black folks work hard. niggahs work hard at getting welfare. Black folks look after their children...niggahs think they deserve a medal for raising their own offspring". And, in his own words "the niggah's gots to go".

(Sorry if that offended, RW. I simply think it germane to the discussion)

Chris Rock has a good routine about the differences between black folks and 'niggahs' (his terminology, not mine). "Black folks pay their bills. Niggahs don't. Black folks work hard. niggahs work hard at getting welfare. Black folks look after their children...niggahs think they deserve a medal for raising their own offspring". And, in his own words "the niggah's gots to go". (Sorry if that offended, RW. I simply think it germane to the discussion)

---dharma


Not at all! I love Chris Rock...he tells it like it is, and he was right on target with this routine. i guess tex thinks jokes like this are just conjured up out of nothing, just for the pure,ridiculous, goofy laughs they get, huh?
Besides, how could I be offended by the term "niggahs"? After all, I'm fundamentally a racist SOB, with deep-seated predjuices against all blacks...or hadn't you heard?

drmiler:

Actually Tex I believe it is. That's because of the required mind set to be in the military in the first place. We (military) do not think like the greater portion of the populace.

I disagree. All sorts of people join the military, particularly the poor. There's no denying that those that excel in the military are of a particular mind set, but the people that join up for their first tour are quite diverse. And ability to thrive in a military environment is not dependent on race.

Start by looking at "government" programs. You will find that to be even considered for the majority of them you need to be in a "minority".

Could you provide links to some government programs that are offered only to minorities?

Rightwinger:

You see this in me only because I'm not afraid to tell you how I see it, as concerning the slanted playing field in race relations as they exist today.

I see you in this way because I've yet to see you offer a balanced opinion on anything relating to black Americans. Feel free to prove me wrong. I'd be happy to apologize.

Sorry if we've touched on this before...I don't remember that particular exchange.

Hahaha...you don't remember it? You just referenced it in one of your replies above.

As to the "looking into it"...I don't think it would do much good to simply call the welfare office one day and ask about their unofficial race bias, do you? No...it wouldn't. Ask the opinions of people you know. I think you'll be surprised at their responses.

Drmiler says it is official. You say it is unofficial. Drmiler's claim can be verified. Yours can't. If you feel there is a way to verify your claim, please do it.

And no, I'm not going to go asking around about welfare and social services in my neighborhood. While it's true that many military families qualify for government aid, there are few, if any, in my neighborhood who take advantage of those programs offered.

The families in my neighborhood, blacks included, are self-sufficient.

I don't have to prove something that everyone (except you, it seems) knows already.

Really? Everyone knows this? Everyone that YOU know knows this? Everyone who is a right winger knows this? Who's your everyone?

Oh, I know...it's because I don't live in the "real" world so my experiences and the people I know don't count. We're not a part of everyone. We're part of happy liberal sunshine land where children say yes ma'am and no ma'am and the ice cream man never runs over dogs and black people are contributing members of society and Soldiers never come home in flag-draped boxes.

"You and yours" being the weepy-eyed liberals and their cohorts (of which you are one...maybe both)

A) I'm not a part of any liberal collective. I don't contribute to any political party. I don't go to any sort of political meetings. My political views run a decent range. I am strong on crime and national defense and liberal on many social issues. Most true liberals would disagree with me on as many points as you do.

I have no cohorts. I'm not a part of any sort of political movement. I'm not involved in politics in any manner. I have personal views that I share on JU. That's as far as it goes.

I'd appreciate it if you would stop with the labeling and name calling. It's childish and not constructive.

One friend quit a very lucrative job with an airline after he found out his competition for a higher position, a black woman, was given a shorter, easier test than he was (the test was timed, you see).

And this was the policy for the airline? What is the name of the airline? Can you provide evidence that this is a widespread phenomenon? (As you can see, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your anecdotal evidence is factual)

Can you provide evidence that this policy is common in the American workforce? (That is, providing different, and more lax, means of verifying how qualified a black worker is as compared to the testing of a white worker).

Just so you know, I am not a strong supporter of Affirmative Action.

However, what you are describing is not Affirmative Action, it is actual racism. It seems to me that you are implying that this racism is the secret status quo and that it is robbing white people of their ability to gain employment and handing out jobs to blacks who would not be worthy of a job otherwise.

Affirmative Action ONLY encourages an employer to choose a minority over a white person when their qualifications are equal, and similarly encourages an employer to choose a woman over a man when their qualifications are equal.

I don't think this is the best way to do things, but it is a far cry from what you're describing.

Another family, friends of ours, were denied welfare benefits, after some friends, a black couple whose circumstances were actually slightly better, had gotten them.

Are you implying that the black couple "stole" your friends' benefits, as if there were only one slot and the black couple got it because they were black? I think in this case, what appears on the surface to be one thing may be very different when you know the details.

There are many factors, private ones, that go into determining eligibility. Apparently, according to the criteria, the black couple met the requirements and your friends did not.

BTW, it's not ok for blacks to be on welfare, but it IS ok for your friends? Why the double standard?

Personally, I find this irritating; perhaps you don't.

I find racism irritating. If what you've described are truly cases of racism and injustice, then I do find them wrong and abhorrent.

I know they happened, though, and they deeply color my opinions of race-based programs and the people who receive and/or abuse them.

Well, I am accepting your word that these events took place. However, in both cases, the problem rests not with the black people, but with the agencies (airline, Dept. of Health and Human Services) who practiced the discrimination.

Tex, you have my respect, and always have.

It's hard to see that through all the labels and judgment you throw at me.

It's just the way you blind yourself that annoys me.

I don't blind myself. If you've watched my interactions with other here on JU, you will haven noticed that I am willing to admit when I am wrong. You have not provided any compelling evidence to convince me of your views. To you it might be common knowledge, but you live in a bubble as well. Most people do. You are surrounded by like-minded people who support and encourage your views. You can't see that. All you can see is that if someone doesn't agree with you or share your experiences, then they must be living the "wrong" life or be blind to how things "really are". Try stepping outside your biases.

I just don't understand how you can't know about the welfare thing...it's almost a part of this country's being, the American Experience, for cryin' out loud. Comedians joke about it, as I said. Black comedians!

It's a stereotype, rightwinger. The world does not conform to stereotypes. Individuals do not conform to stereotypes.

By the way, these would both be considered trait of the Great American Liberal...heh-heh

Again with that. In what way does that contribute to this debate?

but I think Tex will pretty much stay the way she is, no matter what we say to her....she kinda likes it in her little bubble, where everything is fair and balanced.

My bubble is anything but fair and balanced. I have dealt with heartbreak and struggle, particularly in the past year. My life hasn't always been fair. But I like to treat people the way I want them to treat me and I give people the benefit of the doubt, which is something I like extended to me as well.

I'm sorry that you feel these are not ideals worth holding onto.

rightwinger:

i guess tex thinks jokes like this are just conjured up out of nothing, just for the pure,ridiculous, goofy laughs they get, huh?

If you wish to continue making jabs at me, I will be happy to leave this thread. Is that what you'd like? If it is, just say the word.

Besides, how could I be offended by the term "niggahs"? After all, I'm fundamentally a racist SOB, with deep-seated predjuices against all blacks...or hadn't you heard?

I had heard a rumor about that, yes. I'm one too, y'know. Because i had a knee jerk reaction to something I saw on TV, because i insist that there are differences between black people and white people, because I get irritated when people play the race card at the drop of a hat....yessir, I'm a dyed in the wool racists and I have hatred in my heart.

Looks like we're in good company, huh?

Tex, Tex, tex....nothing I say will make you change your mind, and I'm tired of this constant back-and-forth that's getting us nowhere.
As to "asking about welfare benefits"...I'm not saying you should inquire "about" them...as in try to see about getting them....I mean, just in conversation. Try saying something like:
"Say Jack (Tom, Dick, Harry, Ed, Frank, Sally, June, whatever), in your opinion, do you think that it might be a little easier for blacks to get welfare or government help than whites?" or something along those lines (maybe not quite so blatant...try a little subtlety). Just to see what you get. Why do you seem so opposed to that? You're just asking.

I'm done here, Tex....if you want to discuss the main topic of the article, the Red Cross being refused, please fell free, but you've pretty much hijacked this post (granted, with my help) and made it strictly about my predjudice toward black people. You keep asking for undeeded evidence, because yes, Tex, EVERYONE, as in EVERYONE, knows it but you. Why is that? I don't know. You say you're not a liberal, but so much of your personal attitudes and views sure do reflect it. Feel free to think what you want, my lady.....it's your taxes, too.

My life hasn't always been fair. But I like to treat people the way I want them to treat me and I give people the benefit of the doubt, which is something I like extended to me as well. I'm sorry that you feel these are not ideals worth holding onto.

I don't think that RW is saying that those are not wonderful ideals, Tex. I think that he's simply trying to point out that life isn't perhaps as balanced and fair from where he's standing as it is from where you're standing.

I try to treat people the way I would want them to treat me, and if I'm wrong I'll walk away rather than return the favor. however, not everyone is like that.

I don't think that RW is saying that those are not wonderful ideals, Tex. I think that he's simply trying to point out that life isn't perhaps as balanced and fair from where he's standing as it is from where you're standing.

Precisely; thank you, dharma. We, Tex and I, see things differently; maybe intentionally, I don't know.

I try to treat people the way I would want them to treat me

The Golden Rule....the best way to go.

As to "asking about welfare benefits"...I'm not saying you should inquire "about" them...as in try to see about getting them....I mean, just in conversation. Try saying something like: "Say Jack (Tom, Dick, Harry, Ed, Frank, Sally, June, whatever), in your opinion, do you think that it might be a little easier for blacks to get welfare or government help than whites?" or something along those lines (maybe not quite so blatant...try a little subtlety). Just to see what you get. Why do you seem so opposed to that? You're just asking.

Asking someone's opinion is NOT the same thing as finding out the facts. Is there racism in the way that employers hire? Is there racism in the policies of our social services?

This is not an opinion question. If the racism you described exists and is widespread, it is something that can be proven with facts that demonstrate how prevalent it is.

I will not discuss this further with you because it's obvious that you are not interested in a true debate. Your only desire is to see me bend to your will despite your inability to offer any proof, and to insult me because I refuse to bend to your will.

Further, everything we have discussed thus far has been on topic, as it was a primary topic in your article and the one you chose to expand on in your "bump" comment. If you did not wish to debate it, you should not have included it in your article or your first comment. Please do not blame me for "hijack" of your article when I have stayed completely on topic the entire time.

As far as your jabs and labels and laughs with your friends here at my expense go, have fun.

Think of me what you wish.

I'm finished.

drmiler: Actually Tex I believe it is. That's because of the required mind set to be in the military in the first place. We (military) do not think like the greater portion of the populace. I disagree. All sorts of people join the military, particularly the poor. but the people that join up for their first tour are quite diverse. And ability to thrive in a military environment is not dependent on race.

Sorry dear but you're in no position to disagree. You are "not" military. You are the spouse of a military person. Different mind set. Your right all sorts of people join the military. But those that stay in have a peculiar mind set. Those that do not stay in often do not have that mind set. And to set the record straight I never made "any" reference to any particular race thriving in the military, did I?

Could you provide links to some government programs that are offered only to minorities?

And no I can't provide links. I gave you a starting place. Matthew Lesko's book. Buy it, and read it like I did.

This is not an opinion question. If the racism you described exists and is widespread, it is something that can be proven with facts that demonstrate how prevalent it is

And just how would you suggest he goes about proving it? You just going to walk up to an "employer" and ask them do they have a racial bias? Do you honestly think that they will anser truthfully?

Further, everything we have discussed thus far has been on topic, as it was a primary topic in your article and the one you chose to expand on in your "bump" comment.

Wrong! His thread was about the Red Cross and as an "aside" it contained a wise-ass comment made by a black man (who was "obviously" a racist himself). And his "bump" comment was a SPELLING correction!

Asking someone's opinion is NOT the same thing as finding out the facts. Is there racism in the way that employers hire? Is there racism in the policies of our social services?

Tex, how dense do you want to be? Keep on layering yourself the way you are, and pretty soon nothing will get in.
Of course racism (actually reverse racism would be the case here) isn't an official policy, as I've said, over and over, but that just doen't seem to get through. You want FACTS...and I've none to give here. It's just one of those things everyone acknowledges without direct proof...you know it's a fact. At least I do....and everyone but you.
Why are you so strongly against simply asking opinions of others, just to see what they say? Are you perhaps afraid of what you'll hear? That maybe you'll find the world isn't as fair and ordered as you think it is? Or rather, should be?
You claim to have beenn down some hard roads, and I don't know you, so I won't dispute that; but what did you learn from them? Apparently not the same lessons I learned on my hard roads.

Don't go away in a huff, Tex....this is just a simple matter of different perspectives. I still luv ya.

Wrong! His thread was about the Red Cross and as an "aside" it contained a wise-ass comment made by a black man (who was "obviously" a racist himself). And his "bump" comment was a SPELLING correction!

Once again, drm....thanks for the props.

I read an interview with an elderly black man on MSNBC last week. he said that the hurricane had taught him that not all white folks were bad because some of them had come along to rescue him in a boat and had shared their water with him. he said that before the disaster he wouldn't have given these people the time of day....

I heard that story as well. I think that one was on Fox.

Heh, I'd rather have McD's than an MRE any day! ---LW Well, duh!

Not if I was camping!  MREs beat C- Rations all to heck!

Brilliant comment Whip!

You are "not" military. You are the spouse of a military person. Different mind set.

Just so you know, I'm slightly offended by that statement. That makes me feel...invalidated, somehow.

And how many years has it been since YOU actively served, drmiler? You've been out for decades now, yet still count yourself as part of the "we" when you refer to the military. She, on the other hand, while not an active member, is CURRENTLY living on base and is involved with the military on a DAILY basis, a day to day, (24/7, 365 per year) life in a military community that you've been away from for HOW long????

If she comes back I will personally apologize for being overly harsh. Just as an aside LW, living on base is "not" the same as being an active member. And yes I consider myself as part of the military. As does just about every one of us here do. It's part of the military mind set we were talking about. Part of the mind set is once you're in, you're never really out. So how long I've been out really has no bearing. And unless someone has been in they usually do "not" understand how that mind set works. As evidenced by your comments. Also as I stated as a military wife, she has a "different" mind set then an active member.

Christ on a pony, does she have to be signed up for active duty to observe the fact that blacks in the military are self-sufficient?

Just an FYI.... Brandie and I NEVER spoke of race! That was Brandie and RW.

If she comes back I will personally apologize for being overly harsh.

You can do it on her thread.... Link

Also as I stated as a military wife, she has a "different" mind set then an active member.

I dunno about that. Some military wives I know have more military bearing than their active duty spouses. I know what MY mind set is like, and it's not one of bake sales and the price of pork chops at the commissary.

dunno about that. Some military wives I know have more military bearing than their active duty spouses. I know what MY mind set is like, and it's not one of bake sales and the price of pork chops at the commissary.

No it's probably not on the price of pork. But I'll guarantee that it's not the same as your husbands mind set. And the wives you're speaking of....are more than likely married to someone that will not stay in. I have personally looked at both sides of that fence.

You are "not" military. You are the spouse of a military person. Different mind set. Just so you know, I'm slightly offended by that statement. That makes me feel...invalidated, somehow.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But what I stated is true. There is a different thought pattern between a spouse and an active military member for the most part.