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TIME Outed Rove and Libby

TIME Outed Rove and Libby





The articles in Time this week have clarified a number of issues that have been bouncing around Joe User. The first issue is the status of Valerie Plame in the CIA. Many bloggers on Joe User have claimed she was not a covert CIA Agent. The CIA, in a very unusual action, confirmed that Valerie Plame was in fact an NOC covert agent. This is an agent who works undercover without the protection of any diplomatic immunity and are the agents in the most danger for themselves and the contacts that they develop in living their double life for the CIA. These agents are difficult to establish and are the type of agent that was intended to be protected under 1982 Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Unfortunately, this law was designed to be very difficult to violate and the one thing that the Time articles did not address is whether Rove or Libby met all the technical requirements that violated this particular statute.

The second issue that was clearly documented in the Time articles was the fact that it was Karl Rove that first identified Wilsonâ's wife as a CIA operative to Matt Cooper of Time magazine. It was not another reporter, it was Rove. In addition, Rove told Cooper Valerie was involved in the WMD which has also been confirmed by the CIA. In addition, Matt Cooper testified before the grand jury that Scooter Libby, the vice presidentâ's chief of staff, confirmed the fact that Wilsonâ's wife was a CIA operative working on WMD. It is now clear that the two White House staff members mentioned in the Bob Novak article which identified Valerie Plame as a CIA Agent were Rove and Libby.

These two individuals consistently lied saying that they were not involved with identifying Wilsonâ's wife as a CIA agent. It is likely that President Bush was unaware at the outset that Rove and Libby were the White House staffers that outed Plame given the fact that Bush said he would fire the persons responsible for identifying Plame as a CIA agent. No one knows exactly when Bush and Cheney learned it was their principal assistants that had loose lips but Bush has now changed the criteria to being convicted of a crime not merely violating the spirit of law which was to protect agents such as Valerie Plame.

Time magazine has done us a great service in identifying Rove and Libby as liars who endangered one of our CIA. Agents. In addition to the potential harm to Plame, there is the danger to people Valerie Plame worked with while she lived her secret life as a covert agent. That is why the CIA went to the Justice Department and a Special Prosecutor was appointed. It is also the reason that the FBI is conducting a major investigation of this matter. Only Patrick Fitzgerald, the Special Prosecutor will be able to determine whether Rove or Lobby actually violated the complex law intended to protect the identity of clandestine operatives in the CIA. There is no question that Rove and Libby are the people that violated at least the spirit of law and lied to the American people. It is time for President Bush to follow his original commitment to terminate Rove and Libby for their actions in identifying one of our covert CIA Agents.

37,168 views 152 replies
Reply #26 Top
You might read the Washington Post Article today which clearly states that the information that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent was classsified " Secret"


You, and the Post, are completely misrepresenting the facts here, Gene. A document which contained Plame's married name was marked Secret. Plame was in no way, shape or form identified in that document as a covert agent; her identity was not claimed in that document to be secret. By the logic being attempted here, the existence of a Secret document that contains information identifying George Bush as our President would preclude disclosing that George Bush is our President. And there is no evidence Rove or Libby ever saw the document in question, anyway.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #27 Top
Is it just me, or does anyone else see the incredible irony here?

The people attempting to lynch Rove for an alleged leak of classified information, by all accounts unintentional at worst, are attempting to use as evidence against him a barrage of leaks of classified information. And they're having to stretch those to make them relevant. It's just all a little rich. Do we now need another Special Prosecutor to find out who leaked the State Department memo? I said before, this is SO through the looking glass. I don't see how anything could be more hypocritical - willingly using leaks of classified information to try to nail someone for allegedly leaking classified info.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #28 Top
The issue is that Mrs. Plame was identified as a CIA Agent as a result of the statements Rove and Libby made to Cooper and most likely to Novak. The CIA has stated that the outing of Mrs Plame as a CIA Agent was a serious matter and that she WAS covered by the 1982 Act that was intended to prevent what Rove and Lobby accomplished. Rove and Libby LIED to the public about their part in this case for the past two years. The differences between the Cooper E-Mails and his testimony and the testimony of others like Novak and what Rove and Libby have said to the GJ, may cause Rove and Libby other legal problems. The actions of these two very senior officials are not the actions of people we should have in the U S Government!
Reply #29 Top
Hey butthead!


Name calling again. I go away for two weeks, and come back to your juvenile discourse. Truly, I cannot understand why JU doesn't blacklist you.

As for the issue at hand, I find it interesting that now that the truth is out, you all are so twisting it in order to somehow vindicate your positions that the republicans in our white house are so pure and trustworthy and right. What crap. They are lying, arrogant and corrupt. The way the righties on ju buy into the corruption is so mindboggling. Amazing the way you ready to have Clinton thrown out of office and ready to go to jail for lying about a blow job before he was even convicted of this mindboggling dumb infraction. But, Rove and Libby out a CIA operative and you guys rationalize it away.

Hmmmmmm.......... lying about a blow job to Congress?................. or, releasing classified CIA information to the press which had the potential of compromising national security? Which is worse? Yeah, lying about a blow job, no doubt. In fact, lying to a special prosecutor about this release of classified information is not quite as bad as lying about a blow job.

Freakin' amazing.
Reply #30 Top
Hey butthead!


Name calling again. I go away for two weeks, and come back to your juvenile discourse. Truly, I cannot understand why JU doesn't blacklist you.

As for the issue at hand, I find it interesting that now that the truth is out, you all are so twisting it in order to somehow vindicate your positions that the republicans in our white house are so pure and trustworthy and right. What crap. They are lying, arrogant and corrupt. The way the righties on ju buy into the corruption is so mindboggling. Amazing the way you ready to have Clinton thrown out of office and ready to go to jail for lying about a blow job before he was even convicted of this mindboggling dumb infraction. But, Rove and Libby out a CIA operative and you guys rationalize it away.

Hmmmmmm.......... lying about a blow job to Congress?................. or, releasing classified CIA information to the press which had the potential of compromising national security? Which is worse? Yeah, lying about a blow job, no doubt. In fact, lying to a special prosecutor about this release of classified information is not quite as bad as lying about a blow job.

Freakin' amazing.


No what's amazing is you jumping into the middle of an argument without knowing all the facts about what has gone before. And just for your info....the truth is NOT out! If it were Rove would also be under investigation along with everyone else. But guess what? He's not! The prosecutor has even stated this multiple times.

In fact, lying to a special prosecutor about this release of classified information is not quite as bad as lying about a blow job.


Got ANY proof on this? Your just as bad as col. Wait until the investigation is finished "before" you start laying blame or assigning guilt!

You could disappear for yet another 2 weeks. You weren't missed the first time and I would seriously doubt that you'd be missed this time.
Reply #31 Top
The investigation and the SP will determine if there is cause to try Rove and Libby. However, the outing of Mrs. Plame has been established and Rove and Libby did it! They also lied about their part in the outing. At the very least for talking to reporters about Mrs Plame, they should be fired. I they are found guilty, they should serve time in jail!
Reply #32 Top
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Reply #33 Top
The CIA Considered this serious and requested the Justice dept to appoint a SP which has been done. The FBI has an extensive investigation about this so I guess it is a BIG DEAL! If Rove and or Libby did not tell the truth before the GJ, which now seems very possible, they will also think it is a BIG DEAL!
Reply #34 Top
Gene -

You continue to ignore any challenges to your claims and assumptions, declining to answer questions posed to you here. You simply continue to parrott the party line accusations. A lie isn't a lie if the person making the statement genuinely believes it to be true. The factual evidence that has come to light so far suggests Rove was being truthful when he said he didn't have anything to do with "outting" Plame, because he had no reason to believe otherwise. He only found out he was Cooper's "source" well after the fact.

The fact that the CIA & administration consider this a "BIG DEAL" says nothing about Rove's culpability. We'll learn soon enough whether the GJ considers him culpable in any way. In the meantime, this is all just hot political gas.

Zink -

People still like to think the blowjob was trivial. It was. But Clinton actually did commit perjury and was disbarred in Arkansas as a result. That has nothing to do with this business, but since you brought it up.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #35 Top
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Reply #36 Top
Not that this issue is of absolutely no consequence, but...

Wow, with all pressing issues (child abuse, veteran health care, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, homelessness, terrorism, etc., etc., etc.) we face, imagine if all the effort expended on debating the details of this case were put to use on something we could all actually have an impact on.

And sure, you can peg me for being hypocritical for wasting my time on unimportant stuff and I'll take it, but still...
Reply #37 Top
This is not a political game. The CIA, FBI, Dept of Justice, TIME, every news media, every newspaper all consider this a BIG DEAL. You JoeUsers who keep defending this administration just keep your heads in the sand if you like. The rest of the world will view the Rove/Libby outing of a CIA Agent for what it is--A Serious violation. It seems that what Rove and Libby told the JG is not squaring with the E-Mails and statements of the reporters. That could be a BIG PROBLEM for Rove, Libby and Bush!
Reply #38 Top
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Reply #39 Top
It's simple, she used her position to get her husband a trip to Niger


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaahaha and to think i hadda go on a game show and lose to get me a trip to niger.

i've now heard 2 former cia agents say she was definitely a noc agent working for an agency front engaged in limiting proliferation. they both said revealing her connection with the cia very likely exposed anyone with whom she dealt to some degree of danger.

wilson didn't lie about anything in his report (you must not have read the senate committee report).
Reply #40 Top
Time will tell, kingbee. And Wilson may not have lied in his report, but he certainly misled people about his report. After all, the Senate committee refuted his claims. Have the 2 former CIA agents been identified or have they leaked classified information anonymously themselves? How can we know their claims are legit? We now have at least 2 additional leaks of classified information (the State Department memo and the disclosure of Plame's front company) being used as evidence against someone for allegedly leaking classified information. You, I'm sure, can appreciate the Looking Glass quality of this maestrom of charges & leaks. There are too many players with real & potential axes to grind it appears to me. The dust is going to need to seriously settle to know what's what.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #41 Top
Rove seems to have more problems.

First, in his first of three GJ appearences, Rove FAILED to tell the GJ about his conversations with Cooper (What happened to the truth and nothing but the truth?) Rove also told the GJ he learned of Plame being a CIA Agent from a member of the press. Problem is that Rove told Cooper that the infomation about Wilson's wife (he cleverly did not use her actual name) was about to be declassified information. If Rove learned of Mrs Plame from a repoerter like he told the GJ, how did he know the information about Mrs Plame was "classified" and further how did he know it was about to be "declassified"? There is also another Federal law that if a person with a security clearence gives out classified information they are in violation of that law. Rove gave the information to Cooper and knew it was classified at that time he gave it to Cooper and further told Cooper it was about to be declassified. How did Rove not violate the securities law that says a person with a security clearence ( which Rove had at that time) by giving classified informnation to Cooper not violate the Securities act?

It looks like Rove may have violated both the Securities Act and not told the truth in all of his GJ testimony. He was told he was not the subject of the SP investigation last October BEFORE this information was known . That may change very soon and Rove as well as others may find they are in Federal Court charged with a series of Federal Law violations. A source for the above is the Los Angles Times article by Douglas Frantz, Sonni Efron and Richard B. Schmity for you JU that want sources. Some of this same information was in the NYT yesterday as well. "Those dam liberal papers exposing the right wingers in the White House"!
Reply #42 Top
"Those dam liberal papers exposing the right wingers in the White House"!




Well, how dare they? After all, I thought that wh righties were so sorted out by dubya to be above the laws of the land. Now, we got these goddammm journalists coming out and divulging their sources. I bet that these dubya dummies never thought that this could happen.
Reply #43 Top
More "leaked" information, Gene? By your standards, there's a whole bunch a leakers got some serious 'splainin to do. Let's see you go after all the NYT, Washington Post & LAT Nadagate sources the way you have Rove. I'll be standing by... not holding my breath, but standing by.

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #44 Top
It is my understanding, the person who testifies before the GJ is not prevented from saying what they said i.e. Cooper. It is not the press who reports what people have said ( TIME - The Cooper testimony) . The leakers that are in trouble are those that gave out information they knew was classified when they have a security clearence ( Rove) . The last thing Rove said to Cooper was " I have already said too much" It may be that the actions by Rove et al to hide the truth may be their undoing and not their actions when they outed Mrs Plame! This may trun out to be a VERY BIG PROBLEM for Bush. If Rove and Libby are charged and convicted of perjury and or securities law violation , the judgement of Bush, who said last week he had full confidence in Rove, will become an issue!
Reply #45 Top
So you're saying that Rove divulged his GJ testimony to the LAT? I kind of doubt that. And how exactly would Cooper know what Rove testified, if you're saying that the info came from him? You also left me a little confused there - it's not the press who reports what people have said?

It appears that in Gene's World there are different kinds of classified leaks, then - ones that are OK and ones that get you "in trouble" - and Gene gets to decide which are which.

Well, you can't impeach Bush for what you call "bad judgment" so even if your most orgasmic scenario plays out and Rove is indicted, that just means Rove will go. It's a tempest in a teapot if I ever saw one.

Whoever leaked the State Department memo and secret GJ testimony committed a more serious offense, if you ask me (but then, you wouldn't).

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #46 Top
As I have said, it is my understanding that person who testifies before the GJ are not bound to keep their testimony confidential. I am not saying someine in the GJ leaked the testimony but the people themselves. For two of the highest people appointed by the President and VP to act as Rove and Libby have acted is no TEMPEST IN A TEA POT! It also brings into question the judgement of a Presisdent and VP that would surround themeslves with people like this!

If you do not think the White House is not concerned, you are kidding yourself. This is not somthing the Libs did to the Republicans. It is what the conservatives that operate as they do have done to themselves! If other members of the Bush administration also leaked the Secret State Dept memo, they too should be punished. If there are leakes in the GJ they should also be punished. The serious nature of this can be sceen from the approach of the CIA, FBI and Justice Dept. and all the news media. This is NO TEMPEST IN A TEA POT!
Reply #47 Top
"wilson didn't lie about anything in his report (you must not have read the senate committee report)."


No, he just lied to the press and to investigators thereafter. Just a little political smear using fake intelligence, though. Nothing that would be frowned upon here... from a Dem, that is. Granted, if he were Republican the col would have written 10 or 15 articles about him...
Reply #48 Top
Your shrieks of righteous indignation are wasted, Gene. You know perfectly well that the media taking this "seriously" are the attack dogs of the liberal MSM. They smell blood in the water - of course, they're going to "take it seriously." And you scarf all this down like Pablum, child that you are. If you were "serious" about this, you'd let the GJ do its job before deciding who needs lynching. I'll take you seriously when you have anything to say other than "Bush sucks."

Cheers,
Daiwa
Reply #49 Top
Hillary Clinton is not a ranking member of the Senate Intelligience Committe and would not be privy to any classified information about CIA agents. Karl Rove would have access through the White House for all this information. No other names other than Rove and Libby have been mentioned as identifying this CIA agent. Rove is by
public information on th edge of indictment. The Special Prosecutor is however not going after a Democrat (clinton) but after Bush's most trusted advisor. There will
be no indictment because of politics not because of law.
Reply #50 Top
Hillary Clinton is not a ranking member of the Senate Intelligience Committe and would not be privy to any classified information about CIA agents. Karl Rove would have access through the White House for all this information. No other names other than Rove and Libby have been mentioned as identifying this CIA agent. Rove is by
public information on th edge of indictment. The Special Prosecutor is however not going after a Democrat (clinton) but after Bush's most trusted advisor. There will
be no indictment because of politics not because of law.