Messy Buu - I can't figure out if you are real or an online caricature who posts in an attempt to rile people up - since every post you make is so funny and outlandish.

LOL

My posts are funny and outlandish because I notice the huge differences between religion and drugs, and because I acknowledge that if drugs are as great as you and others say, that surely children should have them as well. After all, it's not as if the side effects are that bad, right? At least not bad enough to mention. Besides, society lets children practice religion and watch action movies, and that supposedly has the same effect as drugs (at least according to drug advocates), so why not?

I give you credit for consistency Messy.

Did ANYONE click the link!??

@MessyBuu ...i think the comparison is okay.

I wouldnt give drugs to children, as much as i think it is unsmart to give religion to children.
There´s a long tradition to do so. But that doesnt make it better.


Hey baker,
this sounds like you have no idea what Amsterdam and Rotterdam are like?!

...then let´s compare L.A and A´dam Rotterdam, Crime is a problem in Holland too, but the crime level is related to the social problems, not Drug-related.

...i am concerned for the majority of people who are able to use drugs for relaxation, enjoyment etc...

''Just because a tiny fraction of people stick out and pose a problem, is no reason to prosecute all the millions
who function well.

to stay with my profane comparison, Nobody outlawed the christian sects because of David Khoresh and his Wac(k)os. And nobody outlawed guns, yet even though events like columbine etc take place regularly.

i speak for equality. In a society where many REALLY stupid things are institutionalized, legal and normal
i want that same right for myself.

In the US you can live beside someone who collects AK´s, stockpiles Ammo, drinks himself stupid everyday,
..but i would be the criminal, peacefully smoking a joint.

the relation is just not right in the land of the free, home of the double-morale

Precise Weltregierung
_now a voice from The tiny country of The Netherlands, pop. 17.5 million as much land-mass as Rhode Island.

. Me and my Pals---> just going to step outside our boxes and burn one: C'mon, Debidoll, Muggaz, PoetPhil( great thread) Weltreg.....
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, back now, what was I going to say??? Oh yeah.

Bakerstreet_
It's all a prop. Good, bad, left and right_being a pot-smoker or choosing to express your indifferences about soft-drugs, we don't want to convert you_but if you follow the argument and compare it to The Netherlands_you would reach similar conclusions:That once again America is lying to the public not for their protection but for their profits.
recreational drugs are not for everyone_that's for sure, and that's a personal choice,
, to be respected_ albeit you and many of your type would benefit, like someone said already, from the calming affects of WEED.( indoor, hydroponically grown- weed...none of this outback by the 'mater weed, debidoll..) However, just as most of us wiet smokers and probably many more people_don't appreciate someone trying to convince us that Jesus died on a cross for our sins and was born again...You probably would appreciate me not trying to tell you that YOU would benefit from the medicinal affects of smoking weed_HUmans have a Gotta -Get-outta-my-head switch, built in, and if you, Baker_have repressed this beautiful feature in yourself , it is obvious to me through these last very uptight, critical, judgemental posts.

You say that those activities you value are REAL experiences, ...procuring a spliff can be a REAL,(ie:no Props,) experience too_full of real prop-filled challenges, skill, patience,sometimes adventure and BIG RISK and some, humans, just love taking big, dangerous_if-I-Get-Caught-I'mgoing-to Jail risks! wheeeee, feel the flow of serotonin like a rush!...worse is the real experience of actually getting caught...Now theres some real-life-experience.

There are, btw, medicinal values in XTC as well as being great fun on a Saturday night at the Dance Hall...The use is being tested for the reducing-symptoms of Parkinsons disease and there are valid pyschological applications for the dance drug, MDMA.
The medicinal value in smoking or ingesting are widely known. It is commonly perscribed for glaucoma, arthritis, MS, the undesirable affects of chemotherapy.

you are judgemental, narrow-minded, very short sighted and ill-informed in your veiwpoint on The Netherlands approach to substance use and abuse and Wiet Regulation. Your type has to distant itself from countries like the one I live in_otherwise all of the money spent_600$ a second will be for nothing. They lie to the masses about drugs to keep them away and all it does is make the kitty that much sweeter. Whats forbidden is far more attractive.
Have you forgotten about millions in the US who are given serotonin daily in the form of Prozac or other serontonin reuptake inhibitors(anti-depressants) or Ritalin for kids who are a bit over-active ( a hit of speed must rememdy that situation a treat!) or how bout Rush Limbaughs addiction to a heroin-like drug, oxytocin_is that the name of it? ) I think you have conveniently set that group aside as " ordained drug users" because they get it from the Doc. Across America are millions stuffing pills down their necks beacuse they can't deal_does that really make them a wuss or weak? Be atleast fair in your judgments.
Here are some of the perks of having a Koffeeshop on the corner:
* My local gov't reaps tons of *extra taxes* from the sale and from the vsitors it brings to our small town. More money to catch hard drug dealers.
* I never run out
*It's impossible to become pysically addicted but I'll admit after a 28 year history of blowing ( "smoking") I am probably psychologically addicted however that doesn't make me " a tosser"lol.
*I can grow upto 5 if I want, in the garden or 5 indoors under grow-lights.
*5 grams is the limit
*My children had exposure to weed growing up and it was available to them_they could decide for themselves and had all of the facts about it. And the most curious thing_The kids didn't want it! Not all, of course, but most didn't want to use weed_Things that are forbidden are sometimes popular_just beacause of that.
*I am not a criminal
*The quality is superior
*The chance of me using weed as a gateway drug are NULL.
*The chance of being robbed by a crazed crack addict are slim because people who are addicted are treated for their health problems and not made instant criminals.
*Where I live are no junkies in the streets_A'dam or R'dam may be different.
*The cops can concentrate on tackling the issue of Hard Drugs, beacuse the other "weed- market" they can 'keep an eye on' beacuse it's out in full view. If they want to bust one going over the border it's easy ( we can buy it but can't take it outside the border...)

V for Victory( when the gov't asked everyone in America to Grow Weed!...Hemp is a threat to many industries. *bad for government*
There is too much money to be made keeping weed prohibited. America is far to vast to regulate something as weed_it would be exploited.
Holland has taken a ton of flack for this revolutionary approach. Not only from America but from our neighbors as well. The most interesting part to the Dutch drug experiment is that by seperating the two markets, hard and soft, they could address addiction and treat addicts with methadone_supply counseling and offer solutions rather than imprisonment. The number of addicts on the street etc. has been reduced significantly.





I thought this was great, Welter.
Many people think people who go to church are idiots, as well as many people think potusers are idiots.
Difference: Millions are in jail for pot, the other millions just get sentenced to heaven.
So true.

Nice to meet you here E.Macy.
...a german-european neighbor says Hi.

Maybe someone should make a movie:
Bowling for Sensemilla,... or the like.

in the end it will probably show that the paranoia and low education levels
combined with high levels of Church Membership, plus lots of Guns, Ammo & Police,
are the reason why things are so much different in the U.S.A.

..it is not the drugs.

and the little tiny Netherlands are almost the only ones in the world who
have made a successful step in the right direction.
....unfortunately dope-buying refugees from the surrounding prohibition zone
stream in, and walk around completely stoned. Well at least they bring money.

" Mr.Nice" by Howard Marks is a good book, too.

ah yeah, and e.Macy: search Ronald K. Siegel´s book.....a completely new approach....very very good.

peace
- Weltregierung

Big laughs...cheers weltregieung, what a nice comment, this doesn't happen often here with my sordid opinions and drug
use.

Must check the Ron Siegel book. I'm a Horward fan from wayyyy back, secretly I want to have his children. ()shhhhhh.
It's sad that the whole world is dollarwhipped. Here is a workable solution_
Duitsland you say. Also American? Your grammar is too good_lol.
Good to meet you too.
C

I wouldnt give drugs to children, as much as i think it is unsmart to give religion to children. There´s a long tradition to do so. But that doesnt make it better.

How is it unsmart to give religion to children? I really want to know how religion can be detrimental to children. Although I acknowledge that religion can be abused, the same holds true for everything including water. Do drug advocates hate religion or do they believe that their drugs improve their life, or that religion generally hinders life as bad as drugs do?

How is it unsmart to give religion to children? I really want to know how religion can be detrimental to children.

I believe the kind of religion that was being talked about is the fundamentalist relgions spouted by Christian and Muslim radicals. This is not the religion of St. Augustine.

A man who should be read more often.

Cheers

Hey,

to make clear, my comparison to religion comes from the fact that:

- theres a big number of people who are really into it. ( same with cannabis )

- the people who are not into it cannot see anything good in it. ( same with cannabis )

but the law should b e at least equal.
there is absolutely no proof that god exists, and by historic evaluation
the bible is about as serious a document as the USA Today or the Mirror.
A fairy tale history book written by the victors for reasons of mass-control and PR.

But nonetheless it is widely spread and accepted as a cultural tradition. And you can even teach it to your kids
without being prosecuted. That is freedom.

at the base i think there is no difference wether you get something out of the tradition of an old book,
and the enjoyment, meditation one can get from the flowers of a hemp plant.
Both has its deficits, nothing is perfect.
All i am speaking for is freedom.

...the assumption that for example christianity is a good thing comes from the fact that Millions openly
practice it, and that it has been around for so long.
If we were an atheist society and suddenly someone would preach bible-values,
he´d be put into a jail full of psychologists..... just because the majority has no idea what it is about or
why one would do something like that.

We humans seem to have a tendency to dislike things we do not know about.
And if we have the power we are gonna force people to like what we like.
Makes us feel better.

Summary:
If you have a church and can do service for a god that you cannot prove exists,
and even make minors attend.
Then please give me the freedom to into the building right beside it, drink a coffee, smoke a spliff,
and talk about world politics/football/philosophy.
Believe it or not for me it exactly the same thing. That´s why i tolerate people´s belief. Cause i have faith, too.
in myself and what is good and right.

thank you. And blesses.

- theres a big number of people who are really into it. ( same with cannabis ) - the people who are not into it cannot see anything good in it. ( same with cannabis )

The same holds true for: homosexuality, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Matrix, American Idol, MTV, chocolate, everything else in the world. There are many more variables that differentiate the two, and oversimplifying religion and drugs makes it look as though pot heads are simple-minded.

Both are addictive. Both can be detrimental, if abused ;D

E. Macy, I am dreaming of koffie shops and finally living in a free county! See u there!

BTW, I may be a "pothead" (such a negative sounding stereotypical term), but I am also a Christian. Weed/Shrooms/Cactus are God's gift to me, and I plan on enjoying them.

How is it unsmart to give religion to children? I really want to know how religion can be detrimental to children.

It closes their minds and sews the seeds of ignorance and arrogance for the rest of their lives.

Although I acknowledge that religion can be abused, the same holds true for everything including water. Do drug advocates hate religion or do they believe that their drugs improve their life, or that religion generally hinders life as bad as drugs do?

Anything can be abused, just as anything can be used responsibly. The difference between drugs and religion is that you can quit drugs and learn how to stay away...a little harder to do with a religion you indoctrinate and base your entire beliefs system on.

The same holds true for: homosexuality, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Matrix, American Idol, MTV, chocolate, everything else in the world. There are many more variables that differentiate the two, and oversimplifying religion and drugs makes it look as though pot heads are simple-minded.

Calling the people who matter in this "simple minded" isn't going to win you too many brownie points, Messy. But of course, what's to be expected from a Republican? You guys can't go for more than 5 minutes without calling people names.


BTW, I noticed that other thread was locked (conveniently) and you posted this:

After some thought, it does seem to me that one really can't validate a drug-user's idea on how the War on Drugs issue, because they don't seem to believe that drug-use is bad, and therefore won't offer alternatives to minimize drug abuse, which I'm sure is the main reason why the War on Drugs exist (I really doubt it's because the government wants to take away people's "God-given rights."

This has to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard anyone say. Of course you can validate a drug user's idea on the WoD issue as far as responsible drug use goes. Drug use, not abuse.

You see, this is where you are proving your ignorance. Drug ABUSE is bad...responsible drug USE is not. It's not necessarily good and it's certainly not for everyone but it's far from being bad. It's neutral, and in the realm of personal choice. Just because you have never done any drugs in your life and have been taught that drugs are the most evil scourge the world has ever seen doesn't mean that it's the truth.

As far as minimizing drug abuse goes, you do that by legalizing and controlling it, like alcohol and cigarettes, not by keeping it in the black market where 80% of it is marketed to teens and younger adults.

As far as the government not taking people's right away, or that not being their intentions...? May I suggest you borrow The Emperor Wears No Clothes by Jack Herer from your local library...you might change your mind a bit once you read through that.

It reminds me of pacificists, who also have problems with the current way things are done, but do not offer any decent alternatives. Until they accept that the country does not want drug-abuse to proliferate, even if it does mean that one can toke as they please, they will be seen as potheads who are only interested in blazin' their lives away.

Drug advocates do offer solutions...they just aren't the solutions you want to hear...you want to hear some sort of amazing plan to eradicate drugs forever, from people who know that it will never happen. You are, in essence, wanting people to lie to you. Well wake up Messy, you want the truth and the true solutions...you've recieved them. It's your choice whether or not to realize that people are telling you the best solution.

Hell, even the most faith-driven prohibitionists know that the Drug War will never end...I don't know how you could seriously expect to get an answer from anyone on how to end the Drug War other than ending it...because fighting drugs will be an ever-losing never-ending battle. And when you're fighting drugs, all you're really fighting is people, good people who do nothing else wrong or illegal except enjoy themselves with a substance the government wants to make a profit off of (being illegal).


And btw, most people who are fighting for legalization don't want drug abuse to proliferate either. It's just that drug advocates know there are better ways to control the stuff than by making it illegal (which makes it pretty much completely out of control).

It really isn't about drug abuse. It's about drug use. You need to keep those two issues seperate, as hard as it might be to do...because they are two vastly different issues and you can't lump them together to justify that "all drug use is bad, therefore the WoD is necessary." That's just being willfully ignorant and evasive.

Bah, I see some people caving to BakerStreet and saying that drugs are essentially bad and such. Drugs are not bad when used responsibly...and if they were legal, people would know how to use them responsibly instead of guestimating like they do now.

And BTW, it is true that one will never understand something unless they see it/feel it/do it themselves. It's like with music...you can listen to it but if you compare listening to a rock CD vs. actually learning and playing the rock song on the guitar, learning how to sing it, etc etc...it's completely different and you understand it much more than before. Same with talking about drugs vs. using drugs...or talking about alcohol vs. using alcohol...or talking about driving when you're a teen vs. learning to drive...or anything at all where you learn by doing.

Just as the other comment I posted on the other page ended (the one which you deleted), if you force yourself into remaining ignorant of the biggest aspects of drugs, then you will never truly understand them nor will you find the answers which you seek.

Bah, I see some people caving to BakerStreet and saying that drugs are essentially bad and such. Drugs are not bad when used responsibly...and if they were legal, people would know how to use them responsibly instead of guestimating like they do now.

Legal drugs are abused, and they even have the exact dosage to take on the bottles!

I'll be, something I agree with Messy on! Cheers for that.

Cheers

I used heaps of drugs this weekend... it was awesome...

put that in your pipe and smoke it Messy!!!

!!!

taking some cough syryp right now, does that count?

I still don't see your point, Messy. Just because drugs can be abused is no reason to outlaw them...that's like outlawing anal sex because it COULD cause damage, or outlawing loud music because it COULD cause damage...if we outlawed everything that COULD possibly cause damage, there wouldn't be one thing left that would be legal...including eating food and drinking water.

Wake up, Messy...your arguments are far too illogical, even for a right-winger.

The problem is not that they could be abused, but the harmful side effects that all drugs, eventually have.

Cheers

My point was that your point was wrong.

Drugs are not bad when used responsibly...and if they were legal, people would know how to use them responsibly instead of guestimating like they do now.

I was providing an example of how even if drugs were legal, people would not "know" how to use them responsibly.

I still don't see your point, Messy. Just because drugs can be abused is no reason to outlaw them...that's like outlawing anal sex because it COULD cause damage, or outlawing loud music because it COULD cause damage...if we outlawed everything that COULD possibly cause damage, there wouldn't be one thing left that would be legal...including eating food and drinking water.

There are many differences between drugs and anal sex / loud music, such as that music and anal sex, at least to my knowledge, don't have such bad side effects when abused (although I'm sure both would be painful). Also, the world seems to value loud music and anal sex far more than they do drugs.

yeah, loud music and anal sex have very little chance for death and/or serious brain damage when abused...

@ Messy
" I was providing an example of how even if drugs were legal, people would not "know" how to use them responsibly."

Well mate, i guess you are american. ...
...even though you (should) know that by just doing what u r doing, having a BIG fridge, driving a typical gas-unefficient gadget-infested car, having a unsufficiently insulated house, drinking beverages from styrofoam cups instead of bringing your own, ..maybe you have A/C, ...and maybe you know that all these things together
come to a sum. Americans are burning/wasting about 30 of the worlds energy. while only being 5% of world population. ....and even though all this is known 98% of americans don´t give a fukk and live their lives like they see fit. ....the analogy to outlawing drugs would be destroying the USA.

...BAM!