Teachers' Unions and the State of Schooling: America's New Joke?

from JoeUser Forums
Teachers' Unions have effectively crippled the American educational system. No longer can teachers be fired for being incompetent. Now they get to stay unless they do something like molest a student. That is bunk, no matter how you look at it.

In addition, the fact that teachers have little to no control over the kids in their classroom is garbage. I like particularly how a ridiculously large amount of 'learning disabilities' have been stapled onto kids who are out of control. They don't have 'learning disabilities' they just know how to control the teacher and the classroom. People like that should be kicked out of school entirely. I understand their are exceptions to this, but for the most part it is untrue. Also, having math classes below pre-algebra in high school is unacceptable. If you can't do basic math by the time of high school, drop out now and save some cash. Also, having remedial reading classes and reading classes for kids who are from another country and can't speak english is a total waste of time. If you can't speak the language, then DON'T MOVE TO THIS FREAKING COUNTRY.

Thanks
republican
20,703 views 30 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Perhaps you'd be more suited to preach Politics than to educate children. It isn't the fault of Unions_haven't Unions suffered enough " blame" in America?
Change jobs_the kids probably hate you anyway and think up ways to murder you for boring them to death,
Cheers
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm a high school student right now, so I can tell you the problems that teacher's unions face. I know a lot of teachers in my school are just downright incompetent, they either (a), teach a completely worthless class (health) or (b) they don't know what they're doing, and for some reason they are allowed to 'teach,' even though what they say is worthless and all anybody does is learn to cheat the teachers' system. I just find it a joke that my parents' tax dollars go to pay for teachers who teach a class nobody cares about, nobody learns anything in, and has no use for the rest of their life.
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm a high school student right now


And clearly an embittered one.

Cheers
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, I'm embittered because the teachers have no control over a lot of the students. It bothers me that my learning is stunted because the teacher has no control over the kids and can't do a thing about it.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I understand your frustration. Isn't it funny how everything's a disorder these days? That way, the schools pander to these students' "learning disabilities" or those that move to the U.S. with no intention of being part of it (in fact, although I disagree with France banning all show of religion in their schools, I do respect the fact that they place France itself bove immigrants).
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, I'm embittered because the teachers have no control over a lot of the students. It bothers me that my learning is stunted because the teacher has no control over the kids and can't do a thing about it.


I blame this on bad parenting.

I understand your frustration. Isn't it funny how everything's a disorder these days? That way, the schools pander to these students' "learning disabilities" or those that move to the U.S. with no intention of being part of it


Yes, shocking that we would give every child a chance to learn equally. Also, do you imply that those who move to the United States and dare to speak their native language don't want to be a part of the US?

I hope and pray you were being ironic, but shame on you if you weren't.

Cheers
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, shocking that we would give every child a chance to learn equally. Also, do you imply that those who move to the United States and dare to speak their native language don't want to be a part of the US?


So, if an American moved to another country and demanded that the other country adhere to the American's lifestyle, language, etc., you'd support him? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm all for the idea that when in Rome, do like the Romans, not make the Romans do like you.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
So, if an American moved to another country and demanded that the other country adhere to the American's lifestyle, language, etc., you'd support him? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm all for the idea that when in Rome, do like the Romans, not make the Romans do like you.


I see, My great-grandfather moved here from Finland shortly before the first world war, he spoke very little English up until the day he died. I speak English and Finnish, I also teach college history. Should my Grandfather have been exiled for not speaking English well and having to learn most of it in American schools? Besides, English isn't the national language of the United States. And even if it were, wouldn't someone have to "educate" the people in how to speak English? And wouldn't this be done at some type of "school?

Cheers
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
I see, My great-grandfather moved here from Finland shortly before the first world war, he spoke very little English up until the day he died. I speak English and Finnish, I also teach college history. Should my Grandfather have been exiled for not speaking English well and having to learn most of it in American schools? Besides, English isn't the national language of the United States. And even if it were, wouldn't someone have to "educate" the people in how to speak English? And wouldn't this be done at some type of "school?


I have no problem with immigrants coming to schools to learn English (even if it isn't the national language, it does seem like the language most people use in the US). It's those that come to schools in America and demand that subjects be taught in their native languages that bother me.
I didn't mean that I'm against immigration of all types, just of those types that want to come to the U.S. without any intention of ever being part of it. Those that'll take the time to be a part of it are all good.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
As I said, English isn't the official language of the United States, so, either campaign for it to be, or get over it.

Cheers
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
As I said, English isn't the official language of the United States, so, either campaign for it to be, or get over it.


Is that really your justification for immigrants moving to the U.S. and demanding the U.S. conform to them and not the other way around? Would you support it if an American did the same in another country?

Also, I'll happily get over it when everybody else gets over discussing their political beliefs on this site.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Is that really your justification for immigrants moving to the U.S. and demanding the U.S. conform to them and not the other way around? Would you support it if an American did the same in another country?


Other countries do have officially languages. The United States doesn't. And since a majority of Americans actually speak Spanish better than English, I think it's a pretty good justification. If you don't want to get over it, think about what would happen if the Spanish speakers out there wanted everything in Spanish.

Cheers
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is of course a sensitive subject since I am an educator. I apologize if xr700 has had a lousy education experience, but there are a lot of really good teachers out there. Further, having seen the other side of the education system, I can say that if there is a lousy education system where XR700 lives, it's not because classes are being taught in Spanish, Korean, Japanese, or whatever. This is another excuse for bigotry, something I for one want no part of.

Cheers
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Other countries do have officially languages. The United States doesn't. And since a majority of Americans actually speak Spanish better than English, I think it's a pretty good justification. If you don't want to get over it, think about what would happen if the Spanish speakers out there wanted everything in Spanish.


I didn't realize the U.S. spoke Spanish moreso than it does English. I guess California's an exception since there aren't as many Spanish speaking people here as there are in other states. Maybe my city's an exception, having such a significant percentage of Hispanics and all (i.e. it's not lily white), but most people I meet speak English to me first. In fact, all the magazines, channels, court cases, police, schools, etc. seem to speak English for the most part.

And as I said, I'll get over it when others here get over their desires to "improve" the U.S., even if a majority don't support their idea (and I really doubt that Spanish is spoken more in the U.S. than English, but I guess if I go to another city such as Malibu, everything will be in Spanish, eh?).

This is another excuse for bigotry, something I for one want no part of.


But if English was the official language of the U.S., you'd agree with him? Then wanting people to assimilate to this country wouldn't be bigotry at all?
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
But if English was the official language of the U.S., you'd agree with him?


It's bigotry in other countries, I just don't live there, so there's nothing I can do about it.

And as I said, I'll get over it when others here get over their desires to "improve" the U.S., even if a majority don't support their idea (and I really doubt that Spanish is spoken more in the U.S. than English, but I guess if I go to another city such as Malibu, everything will be in Spanish, eh?).


I fail to see how having everyone be the same is "improving" the US. I thought the strength of the United States was that we were a cultural melting pot. I don't know where you live so I can't say exactly, but I would wager that there is a very high number of hispanics in your community. I will say this again and again, most people who move to the United States learn English. English is a very difficult language, ask anyone who's had to learn it as something other than a little child. Since we expect our children to know a variety of subjects, and since not everyone learns English as quickly as others, why is it wrong to have these classes taught in other languages? Further, I personally have never seen this happen, can someone living outside of an ethnic center, where English is for sure the minority language tell me that this in fact happens? I also take exception to his calling certain classes "worthless". Some school districts have taken to calling art and music "worthless". I teach college level history and some school districts have taken to calling history "worthless" and cutting it for math and science. The students I get in my intro to US and Intro to World history classes are the most brain-dead group of students I have ever met. Since I live in Oregon, which has some minority populations, but is mostly whities, I can tell you the problem isn't with their English comprehension. As I said in post #14, if XR700 has bad teachers, that's an acceptable excuse, if he isn't applying himself, that's an acceptable excuse, but if he's blaming people with Learning Disabilities and Foreigners for his failings in school, than he needs to reevaluate his belief structure. Of course, if people were willing to pay more taxes for public education it might help with his first excuse too.

Cheers
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Except for your last two sentences, I quite agree with what you have to say. You might want to check out my own blog on a similar school-related issue, at:

http://disgruntledteacher.joeuser.com
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
On the language issue:
I'm another one of those who's in favor of the "When in Rome, do as the Romans" approach. When traveling abroad, I do my best to try and accomodate to the culture I'm visiting. If I'm in France, I pull out my French-English dictionary and phrase book and do my best to communicate. Afterall, I am the guest, the outsider entering the culture. If someone comes to the US where English is the dominant language (though not completely official, it is the de-facto language as we conduct all acts of government and business using it), I do expect them to make every reasonable effort to learn English and to speak it when conducting business. I don't expect an overnight change, but I do expect them to make an effort to work their way into the culture of the place they've moved to. As an employee/former student of a University, I see people quite often who come here to go to school, but do not attempt to use English, which causes friction with students and faculty who can't understand them, yet they do not see this as a fault in their actions. If I move to France, I better damn well learn French, or I'll be considered the typical arrogant American. If you move anywhere in the world, it is YOUR responsibility to learn the local language, it is not the responsibility of the foreign culture or community to conform to YOUR lifestyle and standards.

On the state of education in general:
There is some truth to the initial post here, though it's not as extreme as he puts it. Unions in many places do protect teachers who should not be teaching, administrators and school boards to not back-up their teachers when it comes to enforcing rules and discipline, students have little respect for teachers and administrators because they know mommy and daddy will defend them to the death regardless of what they did or if they're guilty. I have seen students stand up in the middle of classes and tell a teacher to "fuck off" when told they would not get an extension on an assignment, that same student was not disciplined when the teacher sent them to the office and the teacher was told he can't kick students out of his class... he quit later that month and moved to the University where he enjoys a much better instructional job.. he was arguably one of the better teachers the HS had. There are now also a slew of new disorders and disabilities that didn't exist 20-30 years ago that now introduce a huge list of special circumstances and special cases when grading and discipline. What was once hyperactivity/being lazy, we now have ADD/ADHD, everyone can go to a doctor and get pills for some disorder or another, we live in a society where nothing is our own fault.

The blame however does not lie with teachers, it does not lie with administrators or school boards or parents or doctors, it lies with the community as a whole that supports these behaviors and attitudes. School boards are elected by communities, those elected boards hire administrators, who in turn hire teachers. The best Teacher's Union in the world can not protect a teacher against a public drive to have them removed. Parents have a repsonsibility to instill in their children a respect for authority and a sense of appropriate behavior. Telling them things are never their fault may make early life easy, but it will bite them in the ass when they're done with school. No one group in the equation holds all the cards, able to turn around the situation on a whim. Everyone needs to be involved in fixing this one. Parents need to raise their kids in a more responsible manner, the community at large has to be more involved in the public schools (through elections and public meetings), everyone needs to keep an eye on the quality of instructors hired, that they aren't just coasting through the day doing the bare minimum. Administrators in turn have to back up their instructors when they make a disciplinary decision (within reason of course).

We need to get out of the habit of blaming all problems on some "other" group and look at the problem in terms of what we can do to help.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
On the language issue:
I'm another one of those who's in favor of the "When in Rome, do as the Romans" approach. When traveling abroad, I do my best to try and accomodate to the culture I'm visiting. If I'm in France, I pull out my French-English dictionary and phrase book and do my best to communicate. Afterall, I am the guest, the outsider entering the culture. If someone comes to the US where English is the dominant language (though not completely official, it is the de-facto language as we conduct all acts of government and business using it), I do expect them to make every reasonable effort to learn English and to speak it when conducting business


My point has repeatedly been that most immigrants to the United States attempt to learn English, very few immigrants are so obstinate that they won't learn it. I was taking exception to XR700 claiming that because we teach English in our public schools his education is somehow lessened. His view is bigoted, and it blames someone else for his own failings. I do believe that certain LDs are over perscriped, XR700 was saying that all were, this includes all forms of mental retardation, dyslexia, etc. as somehow reducing his quality of education. As a member of an educational union, I can say, having sat on some disciplinary review boards in my day, that the union rarely steps in, except in cases of obvious prejudice. What determines prejudice? Well, most union reps have at least some sense.

Cheers
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Teachers' Unions have effectively crippled the American educational system. No longer can teachers be fired for being incompetent. Now they get to stay unless they do something like molest a student. That is bunk, no matter how you look at it.


I'm a high school student right now, so I can tell you the problems that teacher's unions face. I know a lot of teachers in my school are just downright incompetent, they either (a), teach a completely worthless class (health) or (b) they don't know what they're doing, and for some reason they are allowed to 'teach,' even though what they say is worthless and all anybody does is learn to cheat the teachers' system.


My point is also, that as a high school student it makes sense that he feels jaded. How many of us really enjoyed high school? But just because he's a part of the school system, doesn't mean he knows anything about Unions. It's entirely possible to get fired for incompetency. The problem, most schools face, and most cases it's the school not the union who doesn't want to fire someone, is that they can't find someone to replace them. After all, how many new teachers are there a year?

Cheers again.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you can't speak the language, then DON'T MOVE TO THIS FREAKING COUNTRY.


The language pseudo-issue is an artificial wedge created by the wealthy and those in political power in order to drive apart the white poor and immigrant poor. The purpose is to prevent these two groups which have a GREAT DEAL in common from forming a single political group with "too much" power. Divide and conquer.

It is particularly sad to see a supposed "critically thinking" young person parrot the policy of the very group that is covertly keeping him down.

DON'T MOVE TO THIS FREAKING COUNTRY.


Open your eyes and look for the strings. Who is pulling the strings? Direct your anger and energy there.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
The language pseudo-issue is an artificial wedge created by the wealthy and those in political power in order to drive apart the white poor and immigrant poor. The purpose is to prevent these two groups which have a GREAT DEAL in common from forming a single political group with "too much" power. Divide and conquer.


You mean that they both want the same job, but since the job can only go to one, it'll go to the immigrant who'll accept a lower wage?
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Nope it's worse - neither get it because it goes overseas, and Wal Mart gets to roll, rollback prices on crappy jeans all the while the poor are crying "what about me" with hands outstretched.

hehehe.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
You mean that they both want the same job, but since the job can only go to one, it'll go to the immigrant who'll accept a lower wage?


Tell me Messy, Which native American tribe do you belong to?

Cheers
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I quit reading this article with the first misspelled word.

In case you're curious: It was "their"