I mean, how would YOU feel, if you were the only black person for blocks around, and every time you left your house you saw numerous groups of drunken young white men with shaved heads and white laces in their Doc Martin Shitkicker Boots, wearing T-shirts with Confederate Flags and Swastikas on them, (hey, their just clothes, and by your own argument, they really say *nothing* about the person wearing them) while blasting David Allen Coe's "She Ran Off With a Nigger" or anything by Johnny Rebel or Screwdriver, (both white supremacist bands)from their pick-up truck stereos, giving you icy stares as you walk by?But I'm not to make any judgement at all about these people, because I don't know them personally, and hey, they might just be innocent schoolteachers playing dress-up after work?Gimme a break

I wouldn't be happy about it, but if the area had a spotless record of conduct, I wouldn't run from it. That was my question. You've yet to answer it.

Ever hear the saying "the clothes make the man"?.......

Don't judge a book by its cover?

I mean, I know I don't have to worry about Ozzy Osbourne in werewolf form attacking me while I sleep or Marilyn Manson sacrificing me to Satan. But, I also know that if I go into the wrong area, I can be attacked and killed for my skin color (or lack thereof, rather), or if I happened to be wearing the wrong color of clothing or just incidentally shot down in a drug deal gone bad, drive-by or other shooting incident. Which is more threatening?

You don't worry about Marylin Manson or Ozzy Osbourne getting you, so I'm going to assume that you don't worry about individual rappers getting you either. However, these rap act threaten you because they have fans and/or followers that may get you. My question is, why don't Satanists who may be fans of Marilyn Manson threaten you in the same way? We can all be shot for no reason. There is no rap act that is at fault for this. It's just as asinine to blame inner city violence on rap as it was to blame Columbine on Manson.

Foreverserenity makes a good point when she says that the gangsta rappers make a bad example for the lower-income kids. They see them and their lifestyle as a gateway to fame and fortune; the kids in the ghetto see this and want the lifestyle but probably have no legitimate means to get it, so they often turn to crime and violence. Another thing that bothers me about them is their extreme focus on materialism, wealth and sex. Then, they send them the message to "keep it real"! Who's keeping it real? The pimped-out rappers in fur coats, weighed down with twenty pounds of gold chains and teeth, surrounded by sexy women, expensive cars and waving stacks of hundred dollar bills in their videos, or the single mom/low-income family struggling to feed her/their kids and pay the bills, all the while working in everyday reality to keep their kids out of that lifestyle? It's not "real", it's terribly unreal. Rappers are the least socially responsible "celebrities", when they should be the first, considering their origins.

It's funny how no one gets on the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith for all the drugs and women and everything, though, isn't it?

I got a problem with this "I can't tell how you feel since I'm not black".. Are we or are we not the same? Lil_whip mentioned a perfectly good mirrow image example of how would a black person feel in that situation and expressed HOW she feels in this situation. Last I checked emotions are one of those things we ALL have in common..kinda like blood, brains, and hearts?.. How could I not understand the problem?

Just like you couldn't understand what its like to be in war if you've never been. Just like you don't know the grief of losing a loved one if you never have. I've no doubt that you can understand the problem; I've also no doubt that you don't even begin to get as angry as I do about it.

Blacks do segregate themselves, too, and willingly. Ever been to a high school lunchroom, for example?

The same argument could be made to say that whites segregate themselves willingly.

Oh, and BTW, if LW and Dabe could see fit to keep their personal crap out of here, that would be cool.

Lovely, dabe, just lovely. It's really sad that you can't handle even a lighthearted jest without lapsing into hate and vulgarity. Really, really sad. And no, you don't have to call in Karma, I just emailed your comment to her. (I wouldn't want her to miss out on anything important, you know.)

As did I LW. Have a great day.

Just a thought on this topic Philomedy.

Where does typical end and "stereotypical" begin?

Where does typical end and "stereotypical" begin?

Typical: All hispanic people have roots in hispanic nations.

Stereotypical: Hispanic people in the United States have no interest in learning English.

Do you yourself live in a "black" part of town? If not, why not?

Because I'm fortunate enough to be able to live in a better neighborhood. Not a neighborhood thats primarily anything, just a neighborhood without a bad reputation.

I thought I had answered your question, Phil.

The question: Same people in a non-dangerous neighborhood. Do you still go out of your way to avoid them?

One very basic flaw to your argument: schizophrenia is a psychotic condition. Look it up. Paranoid schizophrenia is one form of that condition. Paranoia is quite a different matter entirely. Too many people mix and match the two interchangeably, which you have done here, and they are not the same at all. It is possible to be paranoid but not schizophrenic. A schizophrenic may be unable to function in society at all in some cases; a paranoiac usually can, but with difficulties because of the paranoia.

That having been said, among Caucasians are minority populations to which the descriptions you give also apply. Race can be a very complicated subject; racism is even more complicated, and it's best to avoid it if possible. Happily, I do.

It's funny how no one gets on the Rolling Stones or Aerosmith for all the drugs and women and everything, though, isn't it?

---Phil

But the Stones and Aerosmith aren't out there perpetuating their lifestyle by featuring it in songs. They don't sing about selling drugs, slapping bitches and killing police, either. I mean, yes...they do drugs and have the rock star lifestyle, and they might write about it sometimes, but their lyrics aren't anywhere near as explicitly violent or sexual as rap.
"Let's spend the night together" or "Livin' it up while I'm goin' down" aren't exactly "I'm gonna shove your face in the pillow so you can scream as loud as you want". That's just one example, I know, but the lyrics of the better, more talented and often older rockers like The Beatles, The Stones, Aerosmith, the Eagles and Ozzy are somewhat more imaginative (often using analogy or metaphor) than those of more modern musicians, and that definately includes rappers as well as the modern rockers. Especially rappers.
They don't bother using any tact; they just say what they mean. That's detrimental to the society they claim to represent, especially when you have 6-year-olds calling themselves pimps (or rather "pee-yomps") and referring to the females around them as bitches and Hoes.

You don't worry about Marylin Manson or Ozzy Osbourne getting you, so I'm going to assume that you don't worry about individual rappers getting you either. However, these rap act threaten you because they have fans and/or followers that may get you. My question is, why don't Satanists who may be fans of Marilyn Manson threaten you in the same way? We can all be shot for no reason. There is no rap act that is at fault for this. It's just as asinine to blame inner city violence on rap as it was to blame Columbine on Manson.

---Phil

Well, first of all, I know that Ozzy isn't a werewolf and Satanists aren't driving or walking by my house every hour of every day. I know they exist, and I know that they could, possibly be a danger, but it's very highly unlikely. What's much, much more likely is being robbed by some black dude as I pay for my gas at the BP up the street or assaulted by a 'banger.
Yes, I know that white people commit crimes, too; but strangely enough, when I turn on the news and see footage of some dude or chick in shackles, cuffs and wearing an orange jumpsuit, he/she most often seems to be black. If my playing the odds in assuming that a veeeery biiiiig chunk of the drug-related and violent crime in this country is committed by blacks is racist, then call me a racist. I consider it being realistic. For this psychological reason, white and hispanics simply aren't as threatening as blacks.
I'm not one of those like dabe who assumes that all black people in prison are there unjustly.
Rap acts do perpetuate violence....putting messages music is a powerful force, especially for the weak-willed-and-minded.
Lyrics like those of Marylin Manson had an effect on the weak, insecure egos of people like the Columbine killers. The same can be said for the young people of inner-city neighborhoods who feel cheated by the "system" and "kept down", because they haven't gotten the brass ring, for whatever reason. It doesn't help that they have prominent people like Jesse Jackson (which, by the way, thanks alot for completely ignoring that whole section of my reply...it contained much of the meat of what I had to say and some much better topics for debate than this) telling them this, too. Protest music in the 60s brought people out into the streets and prompted them to acts of demonstration and protest. Don't tell me that the violent messages of rap music and "alternative" rock don't have the same effect in their own ways. You may find that statement asinine, and to people like you and me, with healthy self-images, it may be, but not for some.
Have things for young blacks really improved that much since hardcore rap with its messages of violence and hedonism, started in the 80s? No, they haven't. They've gotten worse. We didn't have things like school shootings, either, now that I mention it, before we had assholes like Marilyn Manson with his freaky messages and lyrics. Hmmmm....might have to study that a bit.

The same argument could be made to say that whites segregate themselves willingly.

---Phil

I had several black friends in school but they never saw fit to come sit at the "white tables" in the cafeteria....they always sat at their own, where whites were not completely welcome, I might add.

Typical: All hispanic people have roots in hispanic nations. Stereotypical: Hispanic people in the United States have no interest in learning English.

Why should they learn it? We're making it so that they don't have to. Every sign or label I see nowadays is at least bi-or-tri-lingual.
I worked at a Dollar Tree and waited on Mexicans (there is a large population here) everyday. If there was a group, there would be one who spoke English and the others just stood there while he talked to me an translated. As I said in my ~~TOTALLY IGNORED~~ section, stereotypes exist for a reason.

Emulation can be inferred as guilt by association, dress like a thug, and you get lumped into the crowd.

Is it fair? No.

Is it common ? Yes.

Is it safe to bet that the emulator is what he appears to be? Depends upon the situation;

"Bad part of Town" loitering with other,like dressed individuals ? High degree of probability that more than one is not a "poser".

High School Break area ? If school has a uniform policy, yes emulator is a thug, no dress policy, even odds at best..

"Hangin' out " around a store front during daytime ? Yep.

High School Atheletic event ? More than likely as well, if not directly envolved in the event.

What gives? There is no cultural basis for this type of dress beyond well documented cases of "Prison Chic" and Gang
regalia. Is it too much to ask that law abiding, tax paying,
citizens not emulate or glorify the obvious negative stereotypes of their culture ?

Are minorities so adverse to adopting general clothing styles ( read conservative, not "White" ) that they PREFER to look like hoods?

Is the "crab bucket" mentality that pervasive?

You know, I really admire older blacks. They can remember what things were like back when blacks really WERE kept down, and can appreciate and understand the changes that have been made in their lifetimes. Younger blacks don't have that.
They've lived their whole lives with state-sponsored programs that give them virtually anything they want virtually on demand, and as a result, have gotten an insidious sense of entitlement from that ideal. One that their forebears don't have and don't want.
I'm supposed to respect them just because...because they suffered as slaves to the white man for centuries, that the white man made them use separate restrooms, telephones, water fountains and lunch counters. That the white man passed laws to keep them "in their place".
The only problem with that is that I, personally, never did any of those things.
My respect needs to be earned rather than freely given.
One of the problems I'm seeing here is that you, Phil, don't want to hear what many of us on the other side have to say. Our opinions, experiences and stories are contrary to what you want to hear, so you tend to totally ignore or gloss over many of the personal experiences and opinions of those with whom you're disagreeing.
You (and dabe, too, really) want to argue from what you see or want to believe, rather than listening to our examples, so you pick nits and take on the weaker topics and arguments.
I guess maybe we all do this to a certain extent, but you as a black person, for example, perhaps want to feel vindicated of all the problems in race relations that blacks do, in fact, cause for themselves.
If that's the prevalent perspective among blacks today, and I sincerely hope it isn't, then things are never going to get better.

Yes. Because if these same people were hanging around there, it wouldnt BE a non-dangerous neighborhood. The neighborhood itself is comprised of inanimate objects, like houses and trees and roads. The neighborhood itself, then, poses no threat at all. It's the people who inhabit it, (and in this case, as in most areas of high crime, the inhabitants are overwhelmingly black) who make it dangerous. Does that make all blacks dangerous? Of course not, but around here, at least, I'd prefer not to take chances

---LW

Well put, you racist bitch.

My upbringing heightened my awareness of racism in this country. Because of the racial tensions all around, I have fought hard with myself to not be sucked into racist thinking.

But see, dabe....your parents did you something of a diservice by instilling you with completely unfettered acceptance of blacks (or anyone of color for that matter), because it, over time, seems to have caused you to unconsciously resent your own race and see all blacks as noble creatures who do no wrong. So many of us see it in your writing.
I'm not at all surprised to find that you were raised by a pair of hippies. You poor thing.

It freaked him out, and he now says he won't ever eat fried chicken in public again.

I used to manage a DQ, and worked for years in fast food as second jobs and such. When a black person came up to the counter, I would automatically put my finger over the "chicken products" cluster of the register keys. More often than not, I was right, too.
They also always ordered orange pop for some reason, and if we didn't have orange pop, then Sprite. Stereotypes existing for reasons......

They don't bother using any tact; they just say what they mean. That's detrimental to the society they claim to represent, especially when you have 6-year-olds calling themselves pimps (or rather "pee-yomps") and referring to the females around them as bitches and Hoes.

Why do they have to represent a community? Why can't they just be artists? Eminem doesn't represent the white community. Jin doesn't represent the Asian community.

Yes, I know that white people commit crimes, too; but strangely enough, when I turn on the news and see footage of some dude or chick in shackles, cuffs and wearing an orange jumpsuit, he/she most often seems to be black. If my playing the odds in assuming that a veeeery biiiiig chunk of the drug-related and violent crime in this country is committed by blacks is racist, then call me a racist. I consider it being realistic. For this psychological reason, white and hispanics simply aren't as threatening as blacks.

Most school shooters I see on TV are white...so I'm gonna play the odds and assume that in a school, the white kids are the ones to be afraid of, right? Come on, you really don't want to use the media's portrayal of the world on this one.

mention it, before we had assholes like Marilyn Manson with his freaky messages and lyrics. Hmmmm....might have to study that a bit.

If a song made someone shoot someone else, there exist a whole lot of fucked up issues that should have been resolved, and were probably created, long before the song was ever composed.

I had several black friends in school but they never saw fit to come sit at the "white tables" in the cafeteria....they always sat at their own, where whites were not completely welcome, I might add.

The white kids never saw fit to come to the Black/Hispanic tables at my school.

I worked at a Dollar Tree and waited on Mexicans (there is a large population here) everyday. If there was a group, there would be one who spoke English and the others just stood there while he talked to me an translated. As I said in my ~~TOTALLY IGNORED~~ section, stereotypes exist for a reason.

~~NO ONE~~ has ignored anything. I agree that Jesse Jackson is a cancer. I mentioned that in the article. I guess you ignored that.

Are minorities so adverse to adopting general clothing styles ( read conservative, not "White" ) that they PREFER to look like hoods?Is the "crab bucket" mentality that pervasive?

Are you kidding? Do you think that women are shunning general clothing styles in favor of the styles of Paris Hilton and the other celebri-whores that are suddenly famous?

Yes. Because if these same people were hanging around there, it wouldnt BE a non-dangerous neighborhood.

Same clothes, in a safe neighborhood, on me. Are you going out of your way?

I really believe that racism is the white man's construct.

Not only an extremely racist statement, but utterly false as well.

Only when EVERYONE stops thinking in terms of race and starts thinking in terms of people will the problem really go away. There is only one race of people on the whole planet: human.

You know, I really admire older blacks. They can remember what things were like back when blacks really WERE kept down, and can appreciate and understand the changes that have been made in their lifetimes. Younger blacks don't have that. They've lived their whole lives with state-sponsored programs that give them virtually anything they want virtually on demand, and as a result, have gotten an insidious sense of entitlement from that ideal. One that their forebears don't have and don't want. I'm supposed to respect them just because...because they suffered as slaves to the white man for centuries, that the white man made them use separate restrooms, telephones, water fountains and lunch counters. That the white man passed laws to keep them "in their place".The only problem with that is that I, personally, never did any of those things.My respect needs to be earned rather than freely given.One of the problems I'm seeing here is that you, Phil, don't want to hear what many of us on the other side have to say. Our opinions, experiences and stories are contrary to what you want to hear, so you tend to totally ignore or gloss over many of the personal experiences and opinions of those with whom you're disagreeing. You (and dabe, too, really) want to argue from what you see or want to believe, rather than listening to our examples, so you pick nits and take on the weaker topics and arguments.I guess maybe we all do this to a certain extent, but you as a black person, for example, perhaps want to feel vindicated of all the problems in race relations that blacks do, in fact, cause for themselves. If that's the prevalent perspective among blacks today, and I sincerely hope it isn't, then things are never going to get

1) I'm not black.
2) I think anyone who keeps crying for reparations should shut the hell up.
3) I think affirmative action is a bigger plague to me than locusts were to Egypt.
4) I know you've not really debated me that much, but don't lump me in with Dabe. Not now, not ever. The day I personally attack you and wish you bodily harm, then associate me with Dabe. Until then, remember that you've thrown the first punch here. I'm gonna let it go for now.
5)Tell me what I've ignored. Tell me what I glossed over. You can go ahead and think that I'm picking weaker issues to argue, but have you thought that maybe I agree with some of your statements? Maybe the problem is that you're expecting fights from your stronger topics, and are sorely disappointed when it doesn't pan out?
6) I don't think minorities get up in the morning and think "hmm...how can I perpetuate a degrading stereotype today?" You can call that vindication if you want.

Only when EVERYONE stops thinking in terms of race and starts thinking in terms of people will the problem really go away. There is only one race of people on the whole planet: human.

Wow. Someone grasping the point of the article. That's a first.

Why do they have to represent a community? Why can't they just be artists? Eminem doesn't represent the white community. Jin doesn't represent the Asian community.

You're not hearing me---why?(cups hands around mouth and shouts)....the lifestyle they depict in their songs is portrayed by them and their promotors as the typical inner-city black lifestyle. It's not, no, but that's the message they perpetuate, and that's the message, and a powerful one it is, that the rest of society gets. It's also the message that many younger black hear and want to emulate, to the detriment of themselves and their communities.
Eminem's music says nothing about white lifestyles except how it's affected him, and is targeted to the black community, too, don't forget. Jin I've never heard of.

Most school shooters I see on TV are white...so I'm gonna play the odds and assume that in a school, the white kids are the ones to be afraid of, right? Come on, you really don't want to use the media's portrayal of the world on this one.

Most, make that all school shootings have taken place in white, suburban schools, too. If a black kid walked into his school and started shooting, he'd very likely find 15-20 other guns in his general vicinity firing back at him anyway, so what would be the point?
Besides, how many school shooters have there been as opposed to the number of black criminals we see on the news every night?

If a song made someone shoot someone else, there exist a whole lot of fucked up issues that should have been resolved, and were probably created, long before the song was ever composed.

Once again, you're not hearing me....(cups hands around mouth again and shouts)....messages in music affect different people different ways. Stronger wills and egos aren't as easily affected as weaker, more insecure ones.

The white kids never saw fit to come to the Black/Hispanic tables at my school.

Did you ask them? We did.

~~NO ONE~~ has ignored anything. I agree that Jesse Jackson is a cancer. I mentioned that in the article. I guess you ignored that.

Well, there's a whole section of things that you skipped right over, so I could only assume that that's what you did. I apologize, if that wasn't the case. I know we agree on Jesse Jackson, which surprised me and gives me hope, in a way.

1) I'm not black. 2) I think anyone who keeps crying for reparations should shut the hell up. 3) I think affirmative action is a bigger plague to me than locusts were to Egypt. 4) I know you've not really debated me that much, but don't lump me in with Dabe. Not now, not ever. The day I personally attack you and wish you bodily harm, then associate me with Dabe. Until then, remember that you've thrown the first punch here. I'm gonna let it go for now. 5)Tell me what I've ignored. Tell me what I glossed over. You can go ahead and think that I'm picking weaker issues to argue, but have you thought that maybe I agree with some of your statements? Maybe the problem is that you're expecting fights from your stronger topics, and are sorely disappointed when it doesn't pan out? 6) I don't think minorities get up in the morning and think "hmm...how can I perpetuate a degrading stereotype today?" You can call that vindication if you want.

I don't care what color you are, you're arguing from the standpoint of a young black person. If you're gonna wear the clothes, accept the judgement, right, thug?
If none of what happens to blacks in their community affects you in any way and you agree with much of what we've said here, why do you argue so vehemently? What's your point?

I disagree that there is only one race on Earth. There is one dominant species, which is human, but that species is broken down into many different branches and races, each of which has its own history and cultural makeup. These, then, in turn, affect the psychological and emotional makeup of the races.

Post deleted by poster. Sorry, I missed the point.

Wow. Someone grasping the point of the article. That's a first.

Nah, was just some extra sentences I had laying around.

celebri-whores

--Nice...so true in certain celebrities....B'AH! most of 'em disgust me....

I really believe that racism is the white man's construct. Not only an extremely racist statement, but utterly false as well.

This is not utterly false. At least, not in the context of the American society I was referring to, which I should have said. But, I stand by the statement, which is in no way racist, but rather one of looking at it from a historical perspective. And, I'm not talking about various tribes of Native Americans who slaughtered eachother, or African tribes who continue to slaughter eachother. I'm talking about our American history, and white European history.

The point is that whites were not denied jobs, housing, schools the way blacks were in this country. That's a fact. Who denied them these things? Whites did. And now it is an institutional part of our society, and one that cannot be overturned overnight. It's a problem that will take years and years and years to remediate. And, lots and lots of money. (Yeah, some immigrants were also shunned, but unless they were black, it would not necessarily be immediately apparent.) However, and this is undeniable fact, blacks were steered to black only areas for housing, and although it's now illegal, it still happens. Blacks were denied comperable educations than whites, and only recently, since the 60's maybe, has there been a concerted effort, at least on its face, to equalize education. Hell, forget about jobs. Fact is, I don't know the numbers, but the unemployment rate among blacks is way higher than whites.

None of the above is because blacks or hispanics or whatever chose to live in rotten inner city slums. They were forced there by whites. Racial steering is rampant on Long Island, NY, where I live. Gee, is that their choice? No. But, I do believe that now there is clearly a culture that has arisen from the segregation, and it's borne more out of poverty than race. And, it's the poverty more than any other factor that perpetuates the racism, the stereotyping, the inability to get employment, rundown housing, etc. All of this - education, housing, and jobs are getting better to some degree, but I think that black America has a long way to go.

So please, don't tell me that the racism and segregation in this country wasn't originally a white man's construct. That is exactly what it was. (Australia and South Africa also come to mind.) Whites brought the Africans to this continent, forced into slavery, then denied equal protection under the law after being set free. We now have a huge population of people of color here, be they black, yellow, red or whatever. Immigrants coming here for better lives, in poverty, so they congregate wo where they can afford housing, and that's often the slums.

White Europeans definitely had a huge hand in creating racism, against the blacks they brought to North America, against the land they stole from the Native Americans, against the land they stole from the South Africans, and the Aborigines in Australia. Now, I do believe it's up to whites to recognize the problems, and up to blacks to also come to the table and work it out. It's a problem that cannot be solved by one race alone. That's for sure.