Israel continues with its one sided war

Nice opinion piece.

I also dont understand why anyone would be insane enough to blow themselves up to protaganise.

Causes get recognised with attention - i am afraid that groups like Al Queda, Hezbolah or the PLO affiliated terrorist organisations dont really care whether it is bad attnetion or good attention, and like you say - they have to resort to urban tactics against the American technology Isreal posses within its arsenal.

Isreal was always a distaster waiting to happen, it is a shame that the powers that were after the second worldwar didn't have the gift of forsight, or consideration.

It is amazing to me, astonishing really, that a country beset on all sides by larger, more populous neighbors that have launched military invasions not once, not twice but on several occasions is considered the aggressor.

Imagine if a bomber set off a nail bomb on a school bus in your town. Say, as happened last week, 11 people were killed and 40 wounded. The police went to arrest the mastermind behind the attack and he opened fire with an automatic weapon. What would you do? Shoot back, perhaps? This is what happened last week. See http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0oap0

But lets say that you want peace in the Middle East. Who is there to negotiate with? Arafat? The faceless, masked masterminds of Hamas? Hamas receives billions of dollars in funds. They wield incredible power within the refugee camps. Please go over and tell them that Israel wants to negotiate, but they have to give up their power. Good luck. Why do you think that everytime peace talks begin, they commit another terrorist attack?

In 2003, there were 3,838 terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers. Thats not a mistake: there were roughly 10 attacks every day. Many attacks were designed to provoke a response. Killing school kids on a bus, murdering a women and her children in their house. These aren't attacks against military targets. Here, look at http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0o5a0

Be aware that Americans, Canadians and Australians are also being murdered. Three US soldiers guarding the embassy in the Gaza Strip were killed by a bomb. A bomb was set off in an international college.

How can you characterize men with automatic weapons and explosives as defenseless?

Larry, if you know your history very well you would know that a majority of wars were started by Israel, point two when you stack up a country with one of the largets arsenels againts a group of displaced people with a small arsenal of automatic weapons and explosives, and no real means of procuring or amassing much more in the wy of arms, to match that of Israel, then I would say that the odds are well and truely in the favor of Israel, call these people what ou like but nothing justifies the treatment of the Palestinian people, as for their actions, again if you even have a small understanding of the way these people have been treated at the hands of Israel, yo could not deny that it is they who have been wronged. I would also add that If the people of Israel support their Government via the election ballot then they are as much to blame as their Government, havin said ths I do know that many Israelies disagree stongly with the treatment of the Palestinians.

I like how you manage to mention all Palestinian attacks yet forget the attacks which happen daily on the Palestinian people, are these ok, they did nothing to deserve this treatment, and while it is regetable that innocent people die, it seems that your argument is only weighted to those who are inocent and support Israel.

Again I state Israel is the agressor, and is the Giant when it comes to milatary might, and sophistication in arms. Nothing can justify their treatment of another people, whom they displaced in the first place.

Also if you think that Israel wants to truely negotiate peace then you must live in a very delusional world, on every occasion that peace has been discussed it has been the Arab world and the UN that has made the effort only to be vetoed by Israel, the US and Britian, fact, Israel uses the peace process only to create the illusion that it is they who want peace and are being wronged, try doing bit of research on UN resolutions over the last fifty years and you may learn just who the bad guys are.

As for the nail bomb comment, like I said the methodes are not right and I do not agree, however I do empathise with these people, and only need to look at their treatment to know that until the Israelie Government is bought to account for their actions the killing will go on, and whether you use a nail bomb or a gunship you are still killing, and is an Israelie Sniper picking off people caught outside of curfew any better tahn a suicide bomber. Like I said, we seem to all to ready to forgive or ignor the Israelie treatment of the Palestinians, whilist treating the Palestinians as barbaric murderers. Israel is way way more out of line and is no matter hwo you look at a State sponsored Terrorist, every bit as bad, if not worse when you consider history and the odds.

.Get your head out of the sand Larry.

I suppose you thing the massacre in Lebanon was OK, the same masacare that was presided over by the current Prime Minister, and the then Defense Minister, did these people attack Israel, not bloody likely.

Zerg, please feel free to educate us as to which wars Israel started.  The only war that I'm aware of was the 1967 preemptive war which Israel "started" because it was about to be attacked. 

Once Israel finishes its wall I suspect things will calm down some.  I have no sympathy for the Palestinians at this point.

I think there is a mistake that is frequently done. Israel is a state with every attributes, military power, welfare, parliament,... The Palestinian haven't, The like of Hamas or any terrorist group are not the soldier of the Palestinians. On one hand you have state power, and on the other small groups militants. One has nuclear weapon, the other rock, stones and a lot of brutalised people without any hope and ready to blow themselves. Terrorists are not elected.
To be fair I think that both Sharon and Arafat should go and leave newcomers to lead their countries toward the deep aspiration of peace of the normal people, the one that see their houses destroyed by tank and the one that see their children massacred in bus.

Problem is, Arafat is a terrorist and has demonstrated that he really isn't interested in peace.

I agree with Brad - Arafat is as bad as a terrorist... if he ever dies, he will be a martyr though.

I do suspect my definition of a terrorist differs somewhat from Brads though.

Isreal has never been the 'agressor' in any war without being under immediate threat... but that just points back to my origianl argument of the stupidity of placing a bunch of Jews right in the middle of a bunch of Arabs.

Brad, i really am at a loss as to why you dont have any sympathy for the palestinians though - i sincerely beleive their plight is a worthy one... You cant seriously beleive that the palestinians go around blowing stuff up because they have a chip on their shoulder?

Firstly and in general, I should say there is no way that Israel cannot be considered an aggressor, they are occupying another country/s.

Secondly as for being the holder of the olive branch, to quote a member of the Israeli Labour Parlimenet, in 1971 when Anwar Sadat of Egypt offered Israel a full peace treaty, in return for full Israeli withdrawal from Egyptian territory, whilist making no requirement on the Palestinian question, the offer was refused, and General Haim Bat-Lev made this comment in the Labour Party Jornal at the time, "we can have peace, but I think if we continue to hold out we can have more", yeah sure this is really the voice of a government looking for peace.

In 1972 General Ezer Weizman, added "that polotical settlement without expansion would mean that Israel could not exist according to the scale, spirit and quality she now embodies", again this does not sound like a government who is on the path to peace. As a result Anwar Sadat laundched a war against Israel to reclaim terrorities lost in subsequent attacks by Israel, so Egypt attacks to get back stolen land, and they are the agressors.

For Israel to ligetimise its position in the Middle East it will only happen when they realise that they are the new kid on the block, and as such, when others offer to make friends it is in their best interest to do so, the other Arab states were already there Israel was not again who is the agressor.

We can say what we like about the Palestinian people and their leaders, but the reality exists still that they are the ones who have been wronged, and Brad you shove your head in the sand once more, and make racist remarks saying that you don't care about the Palestinians, however they have done nothing wrong other than be living where the world decided to put Israel, and quite rightly they want their land back. Say what you like Brad, but Israel has no right here, and the Arabs know this.

Of course you will still get the usual group who believe that because Israel is now a state, and has an army this somehow legitimises there treatment of a divided, displaced and defenceless people.

I forgot Brad, 1967, was one war, 1978 and 1982 invasions of Lebanon, the continual attacks on Palestinian people and what remains of their land, as for the Syrian war of 1970, Syria attacked only to defend Palestinian refuges in Jordan, or the war with Egypt were Egypt attacked to take back its terrotries, so it would seem, that in the main Israel has been the aggressor, it may not have always started the war by firing the first shot, but responsibility is not always attributed to the first shot fired, after all it was not the Coalition of the willing that started the Iraqi war Sadam Hussian brought that on himself by not meeting un resoulutions.

Firstly and in general, I should say there is no way that Israel cannot be considered an aggressor, they are occupying another country/s.

So in other words you cannot be reasoned with. Thanks for letting me know not to waste any more time with you on this subject.

I don't know the answer. But shouldn't our great democratic nation be involved in such slaughter and lack of human rights? There must not be enough money in it for the evil ones or they have already been paid off by Isreal not too care. ~chuckles~ Of course I guess it could be construed as just wiping out terrorists. Because isn't every palastinian a terrorist? ~grins~ Crazy World!

One other thing Brad you seem to be very selective with your treatment of peoples, no matter how you look at it you cannot deny that the Palestinian People have been treated and are still being treated very cruelly and do not deserve this treatment, any more than the Jews deserved the treatment they recieved from the Nazies in WWII. None of it is right and trying to make it right by nit picking over periferal arguments and points will not change this. Just because countries such as ours support Israel does not make them right.

Apparently, OccultPizza, all muslims are terrorists. Which I suppose I should keep an eye one the Arabs that live around the corner from me.

So Brad like your current President you are saying that if I do not agree with you then I must be wrong, it has nothing to do with reasoning with, it has to do with what is right and wrong, and after a lot of thought and soul searching I for one have to conclude that Israel has no justification for their treatment of the Palestinian people, and I am always open to arguments that can show me the error of my way, however they need to be arguments that are persuadeable, at least. Not just calling one a group of terrorists who deserve nothing better, and the other is some poor defenceless group of people that just want their little chunck of land to live on, "the latter being Israel".

No, what I am saying is that there is no point in discussing a complex issue with someone whose views are as rigid as yours. I'm sorry but there's plenty of people available to have discussions with. So I'm bowing out of your anti-Israel discussion because I don't feel there's anything to be gained by participating.

I appreciate you answer Brad and do understand what you are saying.

Look into history and you will find that there has never been an autonomous Palestine. The Palestinians have no legitimate claim to this land. In 70 A.D the Romans conquered the region and slaughtered thousands of Jews. The Romans renamed the land Palestine, in an attempt to further erase the Jews from the land. The Roman’s choose the name Palestine because it was a name inspired by the “invaders” or “Philistines.” The Philistines were dreaded and frowned upon sea people; the Romans were trying to rub salt in the wound.

The kaleidoscope that Zergimmi views the world through tells him that Israel as a brutal police state, using tanks, and helicopter gunships to crush innocent Arabs who valiantly struggle with few means, they throw stones against tanks, Zergimmi analyzes this and is under the impression that the Palestinians are brave to struggle, despite overwhelming odds. Zergimmis thesis is incorrect ,and I will explain why, The Palestinians are damned because of their cause, which is to drive Israel into the sea, or the destruction of Israel, an example of bravery in the face of overwhelming force would be the man who stood in front of a tank in Tiananmen square, a man who would rather be crushed by a tank then to be denied democracy, that was a perfect example of what is bravery in the face of a just cause, in my view.

The reality is that Israel could loose their battle for survival. Sharon seems lost as to what he is doing; Sharon released five hundred dangerous terrorists in return for one Jew. Sharon has begun to dismantle Jewish pioneering communities, expelling Jews from their settlements so that it can become a terrorist snake pit filled with hovels. Sharon is building a counter productive wall that creates a de facto Palestinian state, it also does not stop terrorist bombing.

The only solution to the conflict is simple, expulsion of the enemy. The Limbaugh doctrine holds true “Ours is a world governed by the aggressive use of force.”

Zerg, please feel free to educate us as to which wars Israel started. The only war that I'm aware of was the 1967 preemptive war which Israel "started" because it was about to be attacked.

Well, of course there was the massacre of the Israelis by the Romans in the time of the Maccabees. If they'd only meekly surrendered to the Empire the war never would have started.

Oh, there was also the massacre of the Israelis by Alexander the Great because, shock of shocks, they resisted when his troops came to invade.

Hmmm, yes, I'm sure we can all see the number of wars the Israelis started.

While saying this, I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is stupid, and at the same time insanely complex. If we could have solved the problem we would have done it by now. Neither side wants peace except that which means genocide.

Cheers

So Anthony it was fine to move the Palestinians off their land, and create a new state called Israel, then sit back and allow the Israelis to trample over these people, just because of what happened in history a feww thousand years ago, Israel, by any measure is Brutal, it does not have legitimacy in its treatment of the Palestinians, no matter what history says, or God for that matter, the reality is The State Of Israel was created by people who imigrated to this reghion to displace people who not matter whether they had a state or not do have an uninterupted attachment to the land. I do not view the world through rose coloured glasses, I am a realist, and do acknowledge that many innocent people on both sides have died because of decisions made by leaders on both sides, however this does not legitimise the treatment of the Palestinians, and unless you can give me a good reason for other wise, then I can't see where I am on the wrong track, as for Palestinians wanting to drive Israel into the sea, making this comment is akin to saying that all Israelies would like to see Palestinians exterminated, we know that the above statement can be attributed to two extrimist groups, not the general populace, who just want a safe secure life as the rest of us do.

Nice to here from you though Anthony, I was wondering where you had gone.

Brad: you are right saying that arafat was (is still?) a terrorist. But sharon had continusly show no respect to Palestinians, as people or as country.
Remember 1980 slaughter in Liban, remember also that he ignited the second intifada by visiting the Mosque's explanade 3 years ago. Ha has always embrass the colonisation policy.

I really don't know what to think about his recent pronouncement of leaving some colonies.

The problem with Israel is that the Israelis took land from the Arabs by force and then greated a nation. They did it because of the holocaust, the ancient promises of God to Israel that the land was theirs. Then they created a propaganda that said that the Arabs chose to leave, they weren't force to leave. The book and the movie Exodus glorified this view. However, it is false, the Israelis forced many Arabs off their land. Since then, the Arabs and the former occupants of the land have tried to get back their land by many different means. The only reason they have failed, is that Israel has the financial support of the United States government and many well off Jews from other countries.

Now the Israelis are the target of Arab terrorists and they are frightened. So consequently they destroy Palestinian houses and shoot innocent people. Because of the terrible injustice of the holocaust, they feel justified in what they did to establish the state of Israel. But two wrongs do not make a right.

I have posted a brief overview of the history of the region at http://kupe.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=7076 including links to a number of sites. I don't think however that it will effect peoples opinions.

Sherye, one of the documents that I linked shows that there were substantial numbers of Jews in Israel before World War II. There was always a Jewish population in the area. Before and after the 1946 War of Independence, Arabs (Jordanians in fact) crossed back over to the East bank of the Jordan River from the West Bank and Jews from the Arab countries entered. Thus the population of the region became mostly Jewish.

It is interesting that the PLO invades Lebanon, tries to wipe out the Christian population and Christian Phalangists kill Palestinians and Israel gets the blame. The most that can be laid at Sharon's doorstep is that he failed to stop the fighting. Read this letter from the Lebanese Christian community to the American Congress: http://www.wlo-usa.org/Press_Release/sept_12_97.htm

Do you know that the only country in the Middle-East where the Christian population is increasing is Israel? Please visit this site: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_christians.php Let me quote the following "Since Lebanon made an ill-conceived pact with the PLO in 1969, hundreds of thousands were massacred, displaced and exiled." Israel entered Lebanon ot stop the slaughter of millions of Christians at the request, nay I should say plea, of the Christian population.

There is an incredible media blitz to mislead about the goals and actions of the PLO and Islam in general. Let me quote further from The 11th-century Persian Moslem theologian, Abu-Hamid Muhammad al-Ghazzali, who said "... If a lie is the only way of obtaining a good result, it is permitted. We must lie when truth leads to unpleasant results."

Do you know that the only country in the Middle-East where the Christian population is increasing is Israel?

So?

Zergimmi, one question: how do you expect the Jews of Israel to treat people who have for many decades blown themselves up to forward their cause?