Deference, I don't deny that all these things you list are happening. I just deny that they add up to an Evil Totalitarian Dictatorship.

This, I think, is the heart of our disagreement:

All in the name of "security"? No thanks, I'll go back to my "old" pre-911 days if I've got to put up with that.

You would rather "put up with" the occasional hijacking, building-destruction, and 3,000 citizens dead. Making some effort to sift the evildoers from the law-abiding citizens would be too much tyranny for you, I guess.

I'm curious: what do you think you, personally, would have to do, to make the Secret Police come after you?

Post anti-government sentiments on the Internet? Picketing the White House with a big sign saying Bush is the Antichrist? Start attending regular services at a mosque? Meeting regularly with suspected terrorists? Conspiring to commit terrorist acts?

How afraid are you, really, of the current administration? Do you stay up at night worrying that you've done something to offend them, and they're going to come for you in your sleep?

It is a citizens duty to say what they think about the GOP , good or bad.

It lets them know who really runs the show.

My point was that the original poster , pretty openly boxed in an arguement , and made logical omissions then tried to project a distorted world view out of it.

The US empire does tend to be one in denial , this is good and bad as it shows that she still believes in her self and is indeed different to other similar empires.

The US empire does tend to be one in denial , this is good and bad as it shows that she still believes in her self and is indeed different to other similar empires.

The US is not nor ever has been an empire.  We broke away from one 230 years ago and have never tread that path.  Revisionist would have everyone believe that the US is an evil Imperialistic Empire, but the facts prove otherwise.

---Denial, There seems to be a lot of that going around.

The US is not nor ever has been an empire. We broke away from one 230 years ago and have never tread that path. Revisionist would have everyone believe that the US is an evil Imperialistic Empire, but the facts prove otherwise.

--I agree it hasn't been an empire like great britain was, and i doubt it will ever, but it has, in my opinion, been an "empire", in other means....

--I agree it hasn't been an empire like great britain was, and i doubt it will ever, but it has, in my opinion, been an "empire", in other means....

That is double talk. It either is or is not.

The question is, a big question too, is can it become one if we fall asleep on the watch?

That is like asking if the Pope is Catholic.  Any society can degrade into it.  Germany did not suddenly decide to become one, they just fell asleep on the watch.

That is double talk. It either is or is not.

--I meant it as in that we have had [at times] been a major political figure internationally,i feel....might not float every bodys boat....but oh well....

Look Dr Guy the world is not a black and white place , saying something is or it isn't? Bollocks. The world is all grey all the time.

And on another note , in what way is the US not an Empire?

Maintaining like 12000 nukes in a post Coldwar world , is not Empire? OR Superpower?

Who was the last US Pres NOT to go to war against someone? Carter?

Dr. Guy, then how can we not stop to look around at all the shackles that get placed one by one, slowly but surely, without doing more than batting an eye? I'm not trying to be an alarmist, I just know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. maybe we should start examing things.. *shrugs* Or not. I wouldn't mind an evil totalitarian dictatorship if I were the dictator or benefited greatly from it, so it's a win win situation!

No Helix, you are exactly right, and we should fight every invasion of privacy as an incremental step down that path.  Ihate the fact that the SS number, meant only for the SS legislation, is now your ID!  (Try filing your taxes without it).  I do not like any of these creeping incremental restrictions of your freedom.  I understand the rational for the patriot act, but do you think it will go away when the threat does?

No,

You are not an alarmist, but perhaps my posts were just not clear.  I think we are on the slippery slope.  We need to look at applying breaks now, not later.

And on another note , in what way is the US not an Empire?

IN Every definition of an empire.  Do we dictate to your pathetic little island?  No.  Do we dictate to Old Europe?  Yea right!  You are a caricture sent here to feed on the carion.  You have no arguement, no case, and no point.

We are a Superpower.  That was never the question.  We were never and are not an Empire.  Learn to speak and write clearly. Dont argue points not on the table.

Who was the last US Pres NOT to go to war against someone? Carter?

When was the last year that there were no massacres?  When NZ was founded?  Oh, but Wait, what about the Maoris?

You would rather "put up with" the occasional hijacking, building-destruction, and 3,000 citizens dead. Making some effort to sift the evildoers from the law-abiding citizens would be too much tyranny for you, I guess.

I would agree... BUT A WARNING

I would rather be in danger of being killed by these criminals than give up my freedom.

Liberty or death


As far as the USA being a place of a 'watch system' well it sort of can be just that. And it is heading toward that way in the neam of freedom. I think we all can agree with that, but the question is, when it goes too far, will you stand up and fight? Will you speek out or be bar coded like everyone else?

We are not there yet, but if we approach, we should say something, otherwise there REALLY is no hope.

Here's a 3rd one:

Those who need medical care and disabled are killed, and Fascist "Compassionate Liberals" like Messybuu finally feel at home. ;~D

Armenians? The Jews? The Russians? The Indians? The Chinese? It's a competition - seeking the most pity.

Blacks, Hispanics, Gays, single, drug addicted mothers who can't keep their legs closed.....the "Pity me Parade" marches on, with the Lefties laying out the palm fronds and cloaks to pave the way.

Great article, stute.

Look Dr Guy the world is not a black and white place , saying something is or it isn't? Bollocks. The world is all grey all the time. And on another note , in what way is the US not an Empire? Maintaining like 12000 nukes in a post Coldwar world , is not Empire? OR Superpower? Who was the last US Pres NOT to go to war against someone? Carter?

----Rep from NZ


The best thing that's happened to New Zealand in recent years is "Lord of the Rings". "Wow...my country looks like a fantasy land made up in the mind of a brilliant but mildly eccentric author!" How cool for you.
So...Peter Jackson what, tripled the GNP of NZ for the the two years he was filming there?
I mean really, where do you get off saying anything?
I just love how insignificant, irrelevant (anonymous) nobodies (are you listening, rombios?) from insignificant, irrelevant, tiny backwaters of the real world, are always the ones to come crashing down on the US for it's supposed "imperialism".
It's so cute; they're jealous.
It's flattering, really.



And, just out of curiosity, I'd like to know exactly how many nukes the Russians still keep at hand; we're not the only nulcear power in the world, you know. Keeping a deterrent force is just as important today as it was 20 years ago. maybe moreso, with all the heavily-armed nutjobs running around these days.

Already, some people are by challenging poor legislature in the courts

--Deference

Yes, and these people are called liberals, who can't be bothered to leave such important things as personal choice and freedom up to the electorate.
That's why, instead of putting things up for a ballot vote, they legally challenge the constitutionality of anything they don't like.

We're all under government surviellance, and have been for about seven decades.
I know I've been under government surveillance since I was born, and my parents were issued my SS#....a system which was instituted by the Roosevelt administration. That administration was one of the most liberal, to that date, in American history.

That is double talk. It either is or is not. --I meant it as in that we have had [at times] been a major political figure internationally,i feel....might not float every bodys boat....but oh well

Sorry dude but, being a major international figure does NOT make the US an empire.

And on another note , in what way is the US not an Empire? Maintaining like 12000 nukes in a post Coldwar world , is not Empire? OR Superpower?

Turn around.... In what way IS the US like an empire? Being a superpower does NOT make a country an empire. See this kind of "ignorant" talk is what makes the EU dislike us.

Turn around.... In what way IS the US like an empire? Being a superpower does NOT make a country an empire. See this kind of "ignorant" talk is what makes the EU dislike us.

With that kind of ignorance, the question should be, do we want them to like us?

Yes, and these people are called liberals, who can't be bothered to leave such important things as personal choice and freedom up to the electorate. - Rightwinger

Sure, only "liberals" are to be found in our court system. Give me a break. Stop your inane over-generalizations. Now, with every lie there lays a grain of truth. I will agree that "liberals" are much more likely to attempt completion of their agendae through the courts, but the judicial branch is only an avenue - and not one exclusive to "liberals". Conservative watchdog groups such as "Judicial Watch" are always on the ball and making their points proven to / with judges everyday. Let's not get ahead of ourselves by naming branches of government partisan territory - K?

I'm going to go out on a limb with it and say Deference is right a bit..We aren't a TD right now, but the infrastructure is there. That is something important to dwell on. America is far from being a mature country, no matter the power and strength it possesses. Who knows where our values will go in the next one hundred years. I'll never see the US in lockdown, evil totalitarian tinpot dictatorship mode, but what about my great grandchildren? - Citizen Helix the II

Exactly, let's nip these problems in the bud right now! (By calling your senator or congressman and asking them to explain the legislature and why they voted for it, arranging Citizen (or Political) Action Commitees, contesting legislature in court because of it's unconstitutional action, or by doing the simplest and most effective thing - communicating and spreading awareness of bad law passed by representatives instead of being voted on by the people)

You would rather "put up with" the occasional hijacking, building-destruction, and 3,000 citizens dead. Making some effort to sift the evildoers from the law-abiding citizens would be too much tyranny for you, I guess. - Citizen stutefish

Absolutely. Part of freedom is risk. It is only for the insulated, the complacent; those ready to be culled from the herd; that FREEDOM is a threat. It is for those believers in big government holding the answers to cede freedom in exchange for intangible "security" and to forget what freedom is and shorthshrift following generations.

Tell you what, even with all the legislative "action" put in place and all the new "security measures" being executed to the fullest, things like 9/11 will always inevitably occur. How much do you want to give away to the government until you or your grandchildren, etc., have no personal freedom left to sacrifice at the altar of government taking care of "insecurities" for you against some things that will inevitably occur? Shit happens, how we deal with it is most important.

Dr. Guy,

I don't think the Germans "fell asleep on the watch" at all. The transition to totalitarianism under Hitler wasn't a gradual, multi-generational sequence of individually innocent events and decisions. Rather, it happened quite suddenly, in under ten years, as the result of a perfect storm of circumstances: Humiliation in war. Humiliation in peace. Ecnomic collapse. Military weakness in a martial culture. A power vacuum brought about by the sudden and artificial abolition of the German monarchy.

And, of course, the timely appearance of a psychotic demagogue willing and able to take the vast fabric of German frustration and despair, weave it together with the age-old tradition of scapegoating the Other (especially the Jews), and tailor to his frame the mantle of dictator.

But this would have to be my Rule 4 (after Rule 3: Death Camps): Real ETDs happen suddenly, with overwhelming acceptance and approval of the people. Or else they happen against the will of the people, but with equal suddenness, by means of a military coup.

An ETD may perpetuate its grip on an increasingly unwilling populace by a series of subtle increases in ETD-ness, but I think that these subtle increases in totalitarianism happen after the initial, sudden popular surge (or military coup).

E.g., Communism, which started with a popular uprising against the aristocracy and then began the long slide into pogroms, gulags, and secret police.

How afraid are you, really, of the current administration? Do you stay up at night worrying that you've done something to offend them, and they're going to come for you in your sleep?

I'm not "afraid" of the current administration so much as I am the possibility of me becoming a victim of the poor law being pushed and perpetuated by "Republicrats".

When I was in the service (Active Army), I was pulled in to a C.I.D. investigation. Simply because some Pvt. had mentioned my name, I was subject to interrogation (they like to refer to it as an "interview", polygraph testing, and a full account of where I'd been, when I'd been, etc. . The experience was incredibly dehumanizing and traumatic. I was threatened with reprimand if I did not give the "correct" answers the Criminal Investigative Dept. was looking for. I stuck to my story and was put on manual labor for six months until I was eventually cleared. After that experience, I vowed I'd never settle for such a situation as that again. Then 9/11 and all the bad legislature with it came. Martial law and totalitarian practices had entered my civilian life.

Now, I discuss and raise awareness about these issues. Do you think they will come for you? The unhinging aspect of the question is that one never knows for certain if they will or not - but if they do, you'll be powerless to do anything about it. Why not stop them in their tracks before they have the chance?

Well , it's been an intersting read.

And I've seen my own country bagged by complete ignorance of it's history. And of germanies history.

But don't think I hate the US , US people I have found to be very very polite and proud , unlike the French (who commited state terrorism against NZ).

I am actually very envious of some of the systems in place. Seperation of powers and actually having a constitution. NZ like Isreal and the UK doesn't have a writtern Constitution. And considering the NZ PM's office exercises almost complete emporers like powers , that fact that a lot of peeps want a republic makes me worry about it getting worse. Currently the armed forces here swear alligence to a queen that has zero control over NZ. And having things like D notices that = no freedom of speech also make pissed off. As for the maori wars they were over a 100 years ago and I can only think of one was in Taranaki commited by some settlers , not the govt.

But because of the NZ way of life here , and that we are a pretty peace loving place , I suspect that has had a positive effect a dodgy govt. / law system. We rarely go to war.

But basicly what really saddens me , by reading here is that some peeps seem to back up a certain party no matter what , instead of being impartial and liking good law and hating bad , no matter what party is currently pushing it.

A prime example is the new voting related laws the Dems are pushing up the hill at the moment. They seem on the face of it to be very pro-democracy , and any democracy loving republican should consider them on principal. But the cynic in me suspects that it has more to do with the Dems internal party politics at the mo. lol

Wondering why I give a shite about politics in another country than my own? It's simple , a more pro-democracy USA means a safer world , on account of the shear amount of power they project on all other countries in the world. More millitary power than the next seven most powerful countries combined and a war or two every presidential term does have the effect of making other countries more concerned large projection of power by democratic countries , than by the same from smaller totalitarian regrimes.

And responses about not giving a shite about some small country need not post. Dig?

Tremendous. I have rarely actually visited a site like this. I have heard they existed, but I was always convinced it was a myth.

What vitrol. I think a better word is projection. Projecting your own worst traits on to others. And then whining like victims. Amazing.

To the point of the article, I will only take one comment, unsupported by any evidence, and then extrapolate. Tell you what...living in a foreign country has made me appreciate America. But for the first time ever, I'm frightened it will not remain that way.


"And, of course, the timely appearance of a psychotic demagogue willing and able to take the vast fabric of German frustration and despair, weave it together with the age-old tradition of scapegoating the Other (especially the Jews), and tailor to his frame the mantle of dictator."

Here's the new version:

And of course, the timely appearance of a psychotic demagogue willing to take the vast fabric of American frustration (angry white men) and despair (unfounded fear), weave it together with the age-old tradition of scapegoating the Other (gays, illegal immigrants, muslims, liberals, ad infinitum), and tailor to his frame the mantle of dictator.

Now, it can be argued we are not there yet....but with manufactured news (propaganda), manufactured threats (terrorists, environmentalists, et al), the near virtual control of all three branches of the Federal government, a lapdog media, and you have the makings of disaster, regardless of which party is in power. You see, Terri Schiavo is not about right to live, right to die, morality or any such notion. It is pure and blatant "judicial activism." How selectively we manage to apply all this. Simply look at all the grandstanding attempts to subvert (ammend) the constitution to aleviate basic rights: marriage ammendments, flag ammendments, ammendments to allow natrualized citizens to become president, etc. All for short term political gain.

And just as soon as they manage to successfully interfere with one family decision like this, sure as shooting they will find other ways to encroach upon our lives. Today it may be your bedroom and your right to decide how and when you will make family medical decisions. Tomorrow...

The sky is the limit. The only glimmer of hope is that the American public is finally stirring from their 9/11 stupor. Only 43% now think that the current dictator in waiting is doing an adequate job. I guess that is a mandate.

DR. Miller--

--I stand corrected....i think i might have meant superpower....oh well {oh and this is an apology coming from a liberal} OMG!