You just KISS ed it!

But the problem is that the DU are below stupid!

I see you guys have forgotten to add the 3rd and most obvious sign of a TD.

And that is killing poeple in other countries.

Since WW2 , just how many millions has it been?

Shhh, someone is listening at the door.......

What’s your definition of an atrocity?

Purposeful, intentional, systematic brutality or slaughter of non-combatants, especially when motivated by political, ethnic, racial, or religious reasons.

Jenin was not an atrocity.
Fallujah was not an atrocity.
Iraqi sanctions were not an atrocity.
The Patriot Act is not an atrocity.
Depleted Uranium is not an atrocity
The death of Nathaniel Jones is not an atrocity.
Illegal aliens dying in the desert trying to sneak into American is not an atrocity.

*Today children carry a picture ID at public schools with a barcode on the back which they must have with them at all times, this eases them into adulthood wherein they will carry their National ID card with them at all times where they can be tracked from place to place.

One law at a time.  Unfortunate, but very close to being true.

Deference,

A free society will always have tension between liberty and security. Any society where citizens are free to debate the proper balance between the two is not an Evil Totalitarian Dictatorship. The fact that you are here, now, telling me about the worrying trend towards less liberty in the name of more security, is your most powerful argument that freedom is still alive and well for us.

But there is nothing morally wrong with compromising between the two. The farmer who forces himself out of bed several hours before sunrise sacrifices liberty to security every day. When two businessmen sign a contract with each other, they are sacrificing liberty for security. When we pay taxes, we buy a bit of security with a bit of liberty.

None of this, and none of the things you've listed, indicate that we live in an Evil Totalitarian Dictatorship. Once again, there are two ways to tell: One, a lot of people sincerely believe we don't live in an Evil Totalitarian Dictatorship. Two, a lot of people are still free to say we do live in an Evil Totalitarian Dictatorship.

I see that you took my suggestion, and argued that we're not an ETD yet, but will be soon (for the reasons you've given).

So how about this: You provide one or two concrete benchmarks. Unmistakable Signs that we really are an ETD, along the lines of the Two Rules. Tell us what the Signs will be, and in what year of the future we can expect to see them. Then, when that year comes and goes, and your Signs fail to materialize, we can all ridicule you in good conscience, justified by your false prophecies, rather than having to put up with your empty and inconclusive propaganda doomsaying.

Or, if you turn out to be right, maybe we can get together somewhere in the Gulag Archipelago, and I'll apologize profusely for not believing you.

But until that day...

A free society will always have tension between liberty and security.

As you may be well aware of, that balance has shifted radically towards "security" in only a few short years. Legislation and government policies have been implemented that will keep the momentum shifting towards "security" and further away from liberty.

As I've suggested in this post and the other 6 Ways to Tell if You REALLY ARE Living in a Totalitarian Dictatorship, people are being conditioned to accept this new reality.

Just recently, a study was conducted by the University of Connecticut which showed more then a third of high school students say the 1st Amendment goes too far. Almost half of the students surveyed said papers should not be able to print stories without government approval.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6888837/

This is a good example of how different attitudes are today as compared to just years ago when someone proposing such a thing might well have been beaten in to submission. Some do not understand the importance of the original framework of America and how important it was to keep it in tact. Today we have people writing off the 1st Amendment in record numbers and allowing our representatives to run roughshod over important underpinnings that keep us free and the government in check.

a lot of people sincerely believe we don't live in an Evil Totalitarian Dictatorship

As I've mentioned and as you've acknowledged, I didn't say we live in an ETD. I did say that we have suddenly altered our Democratic-Republic to the extent that it now bares, on paper, similarities to a Totalitarian Dictatorship. The only thing holding anyone back from actually being able to say that it is TD is the fact that only in small ways has the federal government actually acted upon it's new and incredibly broad powers.

Despite easy firsthand observance of our new surveilled and right-ridden society, people will not believe ETD exists until they've seen action taken. Then it will be too late. Some people simply want to live without taking part in our democracy and those apathetic sheep will be the ones who will totally ignore the construction of a fascist / TD state because they are too wrapped up in their job, their own lives, or the fact that they can make frozen waffles in their microwave oven while wackin' it to the latest 'net porn. Government? Who cares? It runs without me. Yes. Yes it does. Lately it seems the government has been consolidating quite a bit of power in the name of "security", while the guy making frozen waffles sees no effect from his 4th amendment right being moot today, it doesn't mean he won't someday be adversly affected by the loss.

The fact that you are here, now, telling me about the worrying trend towards less liberty in the name of more security, is your most powerful argument that freedom is still alive and well for us.

I've heard that before, in a cruder sense:

Bwah-hahahahahahahaha!!! If you truly were living in such a dictatorship you would be in prision for running off at the mouth! -drmiler

Uh-huh. Simply becuase YOU see no visible effect from these laws or the effects of developments in society today does not mean that there is not a framework in place that has now opened the door to a police state. Cameras on the streets, National Id cards, and revocation of civil rights do not mean a totalitarian state is in place but their presence is a sign that one is open to be acted upon and with public approval.

"The analogy is this, if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will immediately lash out at you, struggling, writhing, anything to get away from the scalding liquid. If, however, you put a frog in lukewarm water, and gradually turn the heat up, the frog with become lethargic and eventually cook to death by the time the water is boiling."

Hey, guess who the frog is? The point being that Americans would vehemently rise up against a totalitarian state pushed upon them, but if it creeps in incrementally, then little can be done about the situation until too late.

I've tried to provide many examples of how dangerously close we are, as well as totally forgetting about some of the other things now found in our society that mirror that of one we might think of as totalitarian; lack of transparency of the government (now an issue after 9/11 & Ashcroft), prison camps (Gitmo), and the ability to use torture to extract "confessions".

lack of transparency source:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/06/ED125108.DTL

torture / Gitmo sources:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/470AB739-F809-41F8-A3E2-3967BA55D985.htm
http://www.indystar.com/articles/1/229557-1701-P.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/470AB739-F809-41F8-A3E2-3967BA55D985.htm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/290459p-248637c.html

....but like any ostrich you'll tell me you're breathing okay while you choke on the sand your head is buried under. There is much more evidence to support the idea that the government we hail as our own is quite a bit less democratic then what some believe - until those burying their heads clean the sand from their eyes and see the actions that match the words on paper, policies, and legislature.

So how about this: You provide one or two concrete benchmarks. Unmistakable Signs that we really are an ETD, along the lines of the Two Rules. Tell us what the Signs will be, and in what year of the future we can expect to see them. Then, when that year comes and goes, and your Signs fail to materialize, we can all ridicule you in good conscience, justified by your false prophecies, rather than having to put up with your empty and inconclusive propaganda doomsaying

Nice baiting, unfortunately ,Little Ostrich, you now bear the onus of supporting and defending all these practices that I think most Americans might expect to find only in a totalitarian society that are, today, practiced in America:

Manipulation of Mass Media by government Executive Branch and DARPA Office of Strategic Information
Prison Camps
Secret Arrests
Lack of Government transparency
Revocation of basic civil rights
Surveillance of citizens without consent or knowledge
Executive Orders outside of Constitution made for undermining Constitutional Separation of Powers
Legislation consolidating Federal power above State Level

All in the name of "security"? No thanks, I'll go back to my "old" pre-911 days if I've got to put up with that. Snap out of it. I've provided many examples and sources for each, but even that's just the tip of the iceburg.

Mmmm. Ostrich taste good to Deference. Can't see me while head in ground.

The states of Evil Totalitarian Dictatorships have developed into more sophisticated ways, things are not that simple as they were in the good ol days , there are no clear cut borders for the playground and torture chambers , but , nowadays they play it where it matters, The UN, the media outlets should be and are in the US, UK and Europe, the mouthpiece of the Pentagon, Bush et company, informants at campuses you name it.Look at the universities that were once the core for the Vietnam anti war protests, now they are the one feeding the war with their young men.I visited the US for the first time last year and good not believe what I saw in terms of goveronment negelct and social inequalities, just the homless issue prove that the Bush folks are after thier own corporate interests.I realy feel that Americans are decent honest people betrayed by this administration.

Just recently, a study was conducted by the University of Connecticut which showed more then a third of high school students say the 1st Amendment goes too far...This is a good example of how different attitudes are today as compared to just years ago when someone proposing such a thing might well have been beaten in to submission. - Citizen Deference

I think that is more a condemnation of the education system... - Citizen Dr. Guy

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive but, rather, that the latter helps feed the former. You're correct, we spend so little time studying actual history, civics, and government in public schools that students don't appreciate or understand the important pillars supporting this great nation. To give you an idea of how bad it was when I was a student in public schools (and I'm 25 now); we began studying government in 4th grade speaking about separation of powers and different branches of government as well as glossing over some basics of the Missouri constitution. In 8th grade we spent a little more time on the same material. To graduate from High School (and to graduate from college) we had to take the Missouri Constitution test which consisted of about 15 multiple choice questions that teachers taught to, i.e., we barely read the actual constitution, we simply focused on what the answers to the test questions would be. In between 4th and 12th grade, excepting what I've mentioned, we watched movies such as Gettysburg after spending little time discussing the actual event. Anything I know of the government and the way it works comes from outside study. I attended a school district that had been given the "Blue Ribbon" for excellence and was also an A+ program school. Ridiculous.

A populace is much more malleable when it doesn't know about the history or inner workings of it's own government. How likely were my fellow graduates to make an informed vote or vote at all, when they haven't the slightest idea of the governmental environment their prospective candidate is swimming in?

I am 48 so I had less history to learn than you did

Points for making me smile.

So 3 weeks before the test, all other learning cased and we crammed (in the history class) for the test.

It would have been nice had we done even that, it's ludicrous to cherry pick answers and "teach for the test" and leave all actual learning behind. It may sound much more convenient, but in the end, teachers (or NEA) are only cheating students.

Manipulation of Mass Media by government Executive Branch and DARPA Office of Strategic Information


---That isn't the only manipulation of media, hence the liberal bias.....think about it...

---Here in oregon we have the CIM[Certificate of Initial Mastery], where you are tested over several different areas[4th,8th, and 12th grade] and you have to pass the standardized tests in 12th grade, or you don't graduate, this has forced the highschool teachers to teach to test, not to teach to learn, which has started a movement called the chalkboard project...[ http://chalkboardproject.org/ ]

For me, the government manipulating the media is much worse then individual or private enterprise meddling because it creates an atmosphere where the American people are seen as open to subjugation by the very government they are supposed to be in control of.

If the media was more responsible in its reporting, the dis-information would not be necessary. However, since 'THE STORY' is all that matters to them, then the Defense department, in order to save GI lives, which is their first priority, must use any means available.

I disagree, the dangerous precedent of allowing the government to control the media in any manner is an element of a fascist / totalitarian society. It is most important to keep the original tapestry of our government intact then suffer the loss of any one life.

Then we will disagree. In times of war, it makes no sense to have your enemy learn of your batlle plans on CNN. We may have the best equipped army in the world, but bullets still kill.

In times of Peace, I would agree, but not when lives are at stake.