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OS Advocates - they never change

OS Advocates - they never change

Does it work? No but the feature is there!

I don't mean to offend Linux users, but I think some of them are so interested in winning an advocacy debate than actually providing a solution.

That is, in my experience many Linux users are very quick to point to some poorly implemented half-solution that they don't use just so that they can say things like "See, you can already do this with Linux".

It's not just Linux users, OS/2 advocates (myself included) were the same way.  Technology demos or things that don't do the job seamlessly are not real world solutions.  For instance, some BeOS advocate can't just say "Well BeOS had this advanced file system that could do most of what you wanted.." Well true, it did some of this. But not most of what I'm talking about. 

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. In my article on 5 features OSes need I talked about operating systems needing distributed computing, distributed file systems, universal accounts, along with a component based design. And in response, I got Linux users who argued Linux has "had these features for 10 years". Sorry, bullshit. I've played the OS advocacy game too and some half-assed, cryptic, partial solution is not a feature. 

There's a reason why Windows and MacOS are the dominant desktop OSes. And it's not because Windows users are "sheep" or that Mac users have all drank the kool-aid. It is because they are better at being desktop operating systems. 

And everytime I've debated with a Linux user about some missing feature it's the same as arguing with any other OS advocate - if they lack the feature or the feature is poorly implemented then either you didn't need the feature in the first place, that their OS isn't for "stupid people", or they'll change the conversation.

Example: The problem with using Linux is that many pages I need have ActiveX controls.

Response: You don't need ActiveX controls, they'll just virus/spyware disasters waiting to happen. Those pages should just use JAVA.

Well, that's nice except that that doesn't really solve the person's problem, does it?  Sometimes a feature is available -- almost -- but costs $10,000.  That's not a practical solution for users is it?  Or instead of costing $10,000 it requires an immense level of technical skill to get it up and running.  I remember several years ago trying to get VNC Server running on my Linux box. I got it working but it was unnecessarily complicated.

This week, we released Multiplicity. A program that lets you control multiple local (as in computers in the same room as you with monitors still connected to them) with a single keyboard and mouse that's on the primary computer. The idea being that you can use them together as a single computing platform.

It didn't take long for Linux or open source zealots to come in and start talking about Synergy. "It's frreeee!" they'd snear.  Sure, its clipboard support is bare bones, its connection is flakey, it is a huge pain to setup and use (forget using it on a DHCP based network), and it lacks tons of usability featurs.  But if you want to be able to use a couple of computers together you can do it. I'd invite anyone to try both programs if they really have any doubt that Multiplicity isn't light years ahead.  It's like the guy who says MS Outlook is pointless because there's some free, open source text based email client.

In short, a half-solution is not a solution at all.

For instance, getting back to the article I had written, A distributed file system could keep copies of my documents on many machines. Disk space is cheap. Let me access my stuff from anywhere and don't make me sweat too much about the physical location of the files. As long as they're secure (encrypted) what do I care? I shouldn't have to manually back up files in this day and age. I shouldn't have to go hunting through directories or LAN drives looking for a file.

6 months from now if I want to update the MS Word version of this article, I shouldn't have to run around to my various machines wondering which machine has it and which drive / directory I put it on. I should be able to logon to a machine, any machine, it would go to a global user account manager and I would be able to open up a "documents" folder that I made and all my documents should be there. A filtering system should be part of the folder view where I could type a couple keywords (this component created by a third party possibly and plugged in) and my article would come up.  The article might be located on the other side of the world. Who cares? I then open it up, edit it, and save it and it's saved back to a machine I have priviledged access to.

When some user says "Just use NFS" or whatever I just shake my head. Linux isn't mainstream precisely because so many of its advocates (and developers) never really finish their software. There are notable exceptions but by and large, Linux developers just put enough in there so that they can say "Aha, I did it!"

So it doesn't matter if there's some cryptic, hard to set up program that can kind of do distributed computing that you can download and spend hours to set up. It's not an OS feature.  A distributed computing feature in the OS would basically be silent. It just works.  Same for all these feature suggestions I made. For it to matter it has to be a) included with the OS and b) Be seamless and c) provide the full solution, not just some half-solution that's enough to make OS advocates declare victory on some message board..

27,547 views 39 replies
Reply #26 Top
Hi all,

I'm a Linux power user. It's been my main development platform since 1998. I've been drawn to it by ... Windows 98. It's one thing to have a crash in the middle of a Quake game, and a completely different one while you're coding stuff. As a development platform, Linux beats Windows by far. Most default installs have the majority of the tools a coder needs. I, personally, use a couple of extra tools that are somewhat exotic (e.g. jedit, kdbg) - these can be easily downloaded and installed. Similarly, as a server platform it is much more flexible. than Windows. For instance, on a production server I run a bunch of webservers, each in its own sandboxed virtual machine (using user mode linux). Yes, this can be done on Windows as well, but the cost of the software to do this is actually higher than the cost of the hardware ...

I do agree with one of the main points of the article - the fact that things in a desktop linux don't "just work". There are two problems here.
One - lack of drivers for some hardware. The main cause is the manufacturers. With a couple of notable exceptions (like Nvidia), they're very hostile to Linux. The second problem is improper detection of hardware. Newer distributions are, however, getting better at it. I'd suggest trying a desktop distro, like Mandrake or Suse, which generally do a better job than Redhat.

That said ... it's true that Windows does better than Linux, but it's still far from "just working". That label is only deserved by Macs. Two examples:

1. IBM Thinkpad Laptop w. Windows XP Pro, clean re-install of the machine, install just an academic version of Office and upgrade to service pack 2. Network no longer working. Downgrade to SP1 - everything working again ... praying that the antivirus software is good enough ...

2. Desktop Machine with dual boot XP Home/Linux. All hardware working well initially, in both Linux and Windows. At some point however my Extigy soundcard stopped working under Windows. In Linux, or on the laptop, it works just fine ... I simply *don't* have the time to do a reinstall.

Finally, Linux is basically the only competitor left alive in the PC/OS market (and that is because it plays by different rules, otherwise Microsoft would have managed to kill it; in fact, they already sponsored a FUD campaign against Linux with SCO). I'd say it's worth supporting the underdog here, simply because Microsoft is, to put it bluntly, an evil corporation. If it weren't for the power change in 2000, they would have likely been split in two companies, because of their very anticompetitive behavior.

Since this is a gaming site, I'd really say you should give a try to Games Knoppix (it's a bootable CD, btw, no installation) http://games-knoppix.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/ . My favorite games are - Wesnoth, Lbreakout2, Pysol, Bzflag (multiplayer).

P.S. GalCiv works fine under windows emulation (wine/cedega).

Vlad
Reply #27 Top
and the reason why macs can keep that just works label is that apple makes both the computers and the software, therefor you dont have to worry about drivers trampleing other drivers and they are designed and tested to work together. but then im starting to look at mac laptops as overgrown pdas. why dont they just stuff the whole os onto some flash chips?
Reply #28 Top
Hobgoblin,

It's true that drivers are probably the biggest stability problem with Windows XP/2000. It's clearly more difficult to have an OS that supports tens of thousands of devices than a couple hundreds. But ...

1. Most of the problems that a Windows user faces are completely unrelated to hardware (worms, spyware, that big security hole called Outlook, updates breaking stuff, etc).
2. It's unfair to excuse Microsoft's stability issues by the fact that they have to support a myriad of devices, and at the same time criticize Linux for not supporting all hardware. It's true that Linux supports fewer devices than Microsoft, but it does so considerably better.
Reply #29 Top
I just want to say that the title of this thread is fantastic.
Reply #30 Top
vlad, the drivers themselfs are not so much the problem but rather drivers that are not open to scrutiny of repair. at best one have to report the error somewhere and hope for a fix. report a problem to microsoft and they may well say that its not our problem, its xxx's driver thats the problem. then you go to xxx and they point to a diffrent driver as trampleing their turf and so on.

and im fully aware of the problem windows have with network related stuff. but thats not a "just works" issue, unless you see it as the features worms and spyware use to get in works to good.

ie, i belive that linux and similar open source os could at some time gain a similar level of "just works" that apple have right now if more hardware makers release the info needed. then they can write and debug drivers so that they dont trample on each other. but isnt that just what apple is doing right now? getting the info when buying the hardware and then writeing the drivers so that they play nice? just works on the desktop however is a diffrent story, but with the strides in development around both kde and gnome we may well see a platform agnostic os in the future that "just works" similar to how apples mac os "just works" on their customized powerpc setups...

so the problem isnt the number of devices supported but the inability to look inside and see what went wrong. often the binary file that failed did so not on its own but based on data passed to it by a binary from a third party. only by being able to look inside and trace this chain of events can a user/admin fix the problem...

and i think the driver "nightmare" is why apple dont want to go x86 but stay on their own platform as then they can better control what gets made for it
Reply #31 Top

It's true that Linux supports fewer devices than Microsoft, but it does so considerably better

Oh come now. That's ridiculous. Man, the OS name may change but the advocate stuff remains the same. What device support on Linux is better? Try doing photo printing on Linux. The printer driver support is generally very basic. And as for video card support, since there's not a heck of a lot of graphical stuff going on on Linux that would really stress it (besides OpenGL engineering stuff) it's pretty hard to validate any claim on 3D hardware support.

My problem with OS advocates, being a reformed one myself, is that they actually damage the OS they advocate by being such obnoxious asses in their zealotry.  I made a news item on Aero-Soft about the story about Linus T. using a Macintosh and I instantly had several Linux zealots all over me insulting me and accusing me of "telling lies". 

One wonders what happened to those high school geeks that got one too many wedgies -- they became Linux advocates.

Reply #32 Top
time to take some arguments apart...

printing is a mess, i dont say it isnt. but when every device seems to have a slight variation of the last one then you cant write a blanket driver like you can on some networking chip or similar. now if they would come out with a standard usb printer protocol the problem would go away, but that will probably happen the same day as you start to see cheap postscript supporting printers (and those work quite nicely under linux).

and when your talking about printing photos, are you talking about photos that come out of a digital camera? if so then your better of with a proper photoprinter that you can either insert the flash chip into or hook the camera up to useing pictbridge or whatever its called. and if you want to create realy large blowups then you should probably go to the local photograph just to get a nice result (not that the files produced by most cheap home-use digital cameras support much enlargement).

and if your serious about your photos then your probably useing a pro camera and photoshop anyways, and then linux isnt part of the picture most likely your going for mac...

if you want to tax the videocard, trow doom3 at it. if that dont get it smokeing, nothing will
Reply #33 Top
Every OS has its strenghs and weeknesses. I recently reinstalled Linux (SimplyMopix), just to see. And I was just totally blown away by the speed. I swear the things runs at least twice, if not 3 times faster than Windows on my old machine (Pentium 4 1.5GHz, 1 Gig of RAM, some old Matrox non-3D video card).
I even installed WINE and configured it so now I can run Internet Explorer, Photoshop, Dreamweaver and Flash. Speed for these is comparable to Windows.
Software installation is now a breeze with a GUI front-end apt-get. Must say I'm impressed. Seems every time I try it, it gets better all the time.
As for drivers, I can't say much other than I didn't have a problem. But I don't print, so I don't know about printing issues, and I don't have a 3D video card, so I can't say much about that either. But I did notice there were NVidia and ATI specif tabs in the display properties windows so I think if you have those video cards performances are probably good.
Anyway, I'm just impressed right now by the sheer speed of it and by the ease of software installation. The GUIs are also getting quite impressive and quite pretty.

IN all, I agree that softeware advocates are all a bit crazy, whether they are Windows advocates, Mac advocates, Linux advocates, IE advocates, Firefox advocates, Photoshop advocates or Painshop Pro advocates or whatever. Every software or every OS, is as good as its users are satisfied with it. If you like Windows, then Windows is good for you, if you like Linux, then Linux is good for you. That's pretty much the bottom line.
As for myself, I can see switching completely to Linux if it weren't for a few things: I am curretnly working on a web site using ASP and I kinda need to be in Windows when working on that, and I am also doing a project for Desktop X and I also need to be in Windows for that obvioulsy.
Reply #34 Top

and when your talking about printing photos, are you talking about photos that come out of a digital camera? if so then your better of with a proper photoprinter that you can either insert the flash chip into or hook the camera up to useing pictbridge or whatever its called. and if you want to create realy large blowups then you should probably go to the local photograph just to get a nice result (not that the files produced by most cheap home-use digital cameras support much enlargement).

I am printing photos fine with my Canon printer thank you though.  You do realize that your response fit neatly in the standard "You don't need that" category that OS advocates always use.

It's like when someone complains that <minor OS insert here> can't play many games, the advovate will say "Well, you should just get a Playstation if you want to play games.."

Reply #35 Top

Every OS has its strenghs and weeknesses. I recently reinstalled Linux (SimplyMopix), just to see. And I was just totally blown away by the speed. I swear the things runs at least twice, if not 3 times faster than Windows on my old machine (Pentium 4 1.5GHz, 1 Gig of RAM, some old Matrox non-3D video card).
I even installed WINE and configured it so now I can run Internet Explorer, Photoshop, Dreamweaver and Flash. Speed for these is comparable to Windows.
Software installation is now a breeze with a GUI front-end apt-get. Must say I'm impressed. Seems every time I try it, it gets better all the time.
As for drivers, I can't say much other than I didn't have a problem. But I don't print, so I don't know about printing issues, and I don't have a 3D video card, so I can't say much about that either. But I did notice there were NVidia and ATI specif tabs in the display properties windows so I think if you have those video cards performances are probably good.
Anyway, I'm just impressed right now by the sheer speed of it and by the ease of software installation. The GUIs are also getting quite impressive and quite pretty.

Linux has indeed vastly improved the first impression it gives.  But give it a couple of weeks and you'll find that under the surface, it's still got a long way to go to be a serious desktop OS.

Reply #36 Top
Linux has indeed vastly improved the first impression it gives. But give it a couple of weeks and you'll find that under the surface, it's still got a long way to go to be a serious desktop OS.


I have to disagree.
Reply #37 Top
I used Linux a long time ago, and unless it has made remarkable changes (i.e. evolution as significant as OS 9 to OS X) in the last three years, I think I could say with confidence that Windows 98 < Linux < Windows XP. Sure, it's fun, in a geeky way, but very overrated!
Reply #38 Top
Man... I don't know whether I should get in on this or not. Oh, okay.

I am really a Microsoft guy. When you commit to the "dark side", everything really does work well. Religion aside, WinXP is really nice.

If, however, you're interested in trying out Linux, there is a no-risk, no-hassle way you can do it. Get the Linux distribution called "Knoppix". You can get it from http://www.knoppix.com. You download the .ISO image, burn it to a CD and then boot your system from that CD. When the thing boots up, it never touches your hard drive. You can run Knoppix and get a feel for what it is and what it's like with no risk to your Windows install.

Furthermore, there's a push for an open source, cross platform version of the .Net framework. MONO (available from http://www.mono-project.com) is a slick implementation of the framework available for use on Windows, Linux and Mac.

Extending things even *further*, you can get a version of Knoppix with MONO installed already. Check out http://www.monoppix.com to try out Linux and Mono.

Like I said, there is no winning a religious debate. I am a Microsoft guy and that's that. I have given Linux a chance and can appreciate the effort that has gone into it. For me, it's not worth investing in any further than as a hobby.

Give Knoppix/Mono or Monoppix a shot and make the decision for yourself.
Reply #39 Top
frogboy, i was merly pointing out that there are simpler ways to print a image from a digital camera these days then haveing to plug it inot the pc, copy the image onto the pc, and then print them out. that is if printing is all you want to do. if you want to first prosess the images some way (like say removeing those red eyes) i can see the problem tho. allso, printer support is most of the time handled by cups right? alltho im not fully up to speed about how cups work i dont think you have to recompile the driver every time you change to a new version of cups. so, are printer makers putting cups drivers onto their cds? maybe not lexmark, they seems to love haveing their own special client program running, but what about the others?