OS Advocates - they never change

Does it work? No but the feature is there!

I don't mean to offend Linux users, but I think some of them are so interested in winning an advocacy debate than actually providing a solution.

That is, in my experience many Linux users are very quick to point to some poorly implemented half-solution that they don't use just so that they can say things like "See, you can already do this with Linux".

It's not just Linux users, OS/2 advocates (myself included) were the same way.  Technology demos or things that don't do the job seamlessly are not real world solutions.  For instance, some BeOS advocate can't just say "Well BeOS had this advanced file system that could do most of what you wanted.." Well true, it did some of this. But not most of what I'm talking about. 

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. In my article on 5 features OSes need I talked about operating systems needing distributed computing, distributed file systems, universal accounts, along with a component based design. And in response, I got Linux users who argued Linux has "had these features for 10 years". Sorry, bullshit. I've played the OS advocacy game too and some half-assed, cryptic, partial solution is not a feature. 

There's a reason why Windows and MacOS are the dominant desktop OSes. And it's not because Windows users are "sheep" or that Mac users have all drank the kool-aid. It is because they are better at being desktop operating systems. 

And everytime I've debated with a Linux user about some missing feature it's the same as arguing with any other OS advocate - if they lack the feature or the feature is poorly implemented then either you didn't need the feature in the first place, that their OS isn't for "stupid people", or they'll change the conversation.

Example: The problem with using Linux is that many pages I need have ActiveX controls.

Response: You don't need ActiveX controls, they'll just virus/spyware disasters waiting to happen. Those pages should just use JAVA.

Well, that's nice except that that doesn't really solve the person's problem, does it?  Sometimes a feature is available -- almost -- but costs $10,000.  That's not a practical solution for users is it?  Or instead of costing $10,000 it requires an immense level of technical skill to get it up and running.  I remember several years ago trying to get VNC Server running on my Linux box. I got it working but it was unnecessarily complicated.

This week, we released Multiplicity. A program that lets you control multiple local (as in computers in the same room as you with monitors still connected to them) with a single keyboard and mouse that's on the primary computer. The idea being that you can use them together as a single computing platform.

It didn't take long for Linux or open source zealots to come in and start talking about Synergy. "It's frreeee!" they'd snear.  Sure, its clipboard support is bare bones, its connection is flakey, it is a huge pain to setup and use (forget using it on a DHCP based network), and it lacks tons of usability featurs.  But if you want to be able to use a couple of computers together you can do it. I'd invite anyone to try both programs if they really have any doubt that Multiplicity isn't light years ahead.  It's like the guy who says MS Outlook is pointless because there's some free, open source text based email client.

In short, a half-solution is not a solution at all.

For instance, getting back to the article I had written, A distributed file system could keep copies of my documents on many machines. Disk space is cheap. Let me access my stuff from anywhere and don't make me sweat too much about the physical location of the files. As long as they're secure (encrypted) what do I care? I shouldn't have to manually back up files in this day and age. I shouldn't have to go hunting through directories or LAN drives looking for a file.

6 months from now if I want to update the MS Word version of this article, I shouldn't have to run around to my various machines wondering which machine has it and which drive / directory I put it on. I should be able to logon to a machine, any machine, it would go to a global user account manager and I would be able to open up a "documents" folder that I made and all my documents should be there. A filtering system should be part of the folder view where I could type a couple keywords (this component created by a third party possibly and plugged in) and my article would come up.  The article might be located on the other side of the world. Who cares? I then open it up, edit it, and save it and it's saved back to a machine I have priviledged access to.

When some user says "Just use NFS" or whatever I just shake my head. Linux isn't mainstream precisely because so many of its advocates (and developers) never really finish their software. There are notable exceptions but by and large, Linux developers just put enough in there so that they can say "Aha, I did it!"

So it doesn't matter if there's some cryptic, hard to set up program that can kind of do distributed computing that you can download and spend hours to set up. It's not an OS feature.  A distributed computing feature in the OS would basically be silent. It just works.  Same for all these feature suggestions I made. For it to matter it has to be a) included with the OS and b) Be seamless and c) provide the full solution, not just some half-solution that's enough to make OS advocates declare victory on some message board..

27,545 views 39 replies
Reply #1 Top
such language!!!!!!

anyway, Well some people want to believe that they got the shizznits of an OS. I guess... Linux is cool, but a normal user could not do what you were talking about in the original article.

Plus, Linux can't do all of those 5 things now anyway.
Reply #2 Top
This article and the comments on your previous article reminded me of a song by the comedy group Three Dead Trolls In A Baggie called Every OS Sucks

"Then there's Leenux or Linux, don't know how you say it
How you install it, or use it or play it,
Or where you download it, or which programs run,
But Leenux or Linux don't look like much fun.

But "Hey!" they say, "It's getting great press"
Though how it survives is anyones guess
If you ask me, it's a great big mess
For elitest, nerdy shmucks.

"It's great!" they say "if you can get it to run"
The geeks say "Hey, that's half the fun!"
Yeah, well I have a girlfriend and things to get done

The Linux OS Sucks... sorry to say it but it does"

That's just one of the bits, it hits on Windows and MacOS too and lampoons their shortcomings. This is perhaps the most accurate commentary I've ever seen about Linux. Plus it's funny

Linux is great for certain things (servers) and definitely not-so-great for a lot of other things (anything an end-user wants to do).
Reply #3 Top
Brad, I agree about the advocates. Whether it's software, hardware or OS. Advocates often refuse to see where something my be better in some situations. IE advocates, Firefox advocates, Linux advocates, Windows advocates, Mac advocates, AMD advocates or Intel advocates, etc.
Zoomba, Linux has its shortcomings, true. It's main problem is the lack of support from software and hardware manufacturers. But Linux can be a good and easy to use desktop OS too, depending on what you do. If you don't need specific Windows software, Linux gets the job done. It's just as easy to use as Windows nowadays for the everyday tasks such as email, browsing, typing a letter in a Word Processor, managing your budget, etc. Lets not overrate Linux as it has its flaws, but lets not underrate it either, it's not the geek-restricted OS it used to be.
Reply #4 Top
Until the day comes where my mother can plug in a printer she bought at WalMart and have it just run, Linux is not a suitable desktop solution for the masses.

Yes, OpenOffice immiates a lot of MS Office functionality... but having used both, I know it doesn't come close in the look and feel, which to most people is just as important if not more so than actual functionality. The OO spreadsheet tool just *feels* kludgier (even though I know it's a good match for functionality)

There is infinitely more to an OS than functionality and available tools. Interoperability, plug-and-play, look and feel... all those fuzzy things a lot of techies dismiss because it is irrelevant to technical functionality.

Oh, and you lost your argument on desktop linux as soon as you said "depending on what you do." If I can do a task quickly and easily on Windows and MacOS, and I can't do it on Linux, then that is a failing of Linux, not an issue of my inability to change. An OS should facilitate work, not impede it.

I should never have to think about library dependencies. I should never have to compile a program. If I buy a new peripheral, it should just work.

Linux on the desktop has come a very long way in recent years, I do acknowledge that. But for a desktop solution (and when I say that, I mean mass-market usability... geeks don't count in this arena) it's not there yet, and until developers take a step back from making build 4182349712 with added features X, Y, Z and A34 and take the time to address the usability and look and feel aspects, it won't get there.

Before you say I just haven't tried or whatever. I grew up on the old Mac Systems (used System 5 through 8, then back again at OS X), Windows 3.1 through XP, I've used Linux since roughly 1996/1997 ok the desktop as well as on servers. I am familiar with the plusses and minuses of the platforms, and I know how to solve most problems I encounter on all of them. Though the one I've never overcome was getting my Epson to print under Linux... that never ever worked.... ever..... argh.
Reply #5 Top
Juuuuuust to be pedantic (because everyone likes to nitpick), Linux is a *kernel* and (arguably) the set of tools required to maintain it.

When people are arguing about "Linux" and the "desktop" they're really talking about distributions and the choices the distribution vendors (e.g., RedHat, SUSE, Mandrake, etc.) have made towards mass market usability.

Case in point: I use Gentoo on my AMD64 server. This is a distribution that allows you to spend roughly 0% of your time working on desktop usability issues (e.g., configuring Xorg, KDE, etc.) if they don't matter to you. In my case (OS & programming R&D), that's the ideal ratio. With something like Mandrake, for example, they're a lot more hoops I'd have to jump through to skim off all that desktop stuff that I don't want.

Why make the distinction? Because, as people like to point out, the proportion of developers time spent making usability to the masses #1 versus, say, systems development is still very low when the topic is a Linux OS distribution. I'd argue if any distribution were to *really* get it right in terms of mass market appeal, then the forefront of the discussion would be, for example, "Knoppix is a great desktop OS" versus "The Knoppix distribution of Linux ....", i.e., the userland features/vendor would come out in front of the system/kernel.
Reply #6 Top
You're right. GNU/Linux is definitely not as easy to use as Windows or MacOS for the average desktop.

Developers who write software for GNU/Linux are most often *not* targetting the average user as their intended audience though. Commercial developers for Windows often must target this audience, since these are the people who are going to be buying their software. This issue of target audience leads to the "problems" that you point out. But I think for most GNU/Linux users, the problems are not really problems at all. Dealing with the complexity really is part of the fun. 2+2 is not fun anymore because I already know the answer. Using set theory to prove that 2+2 must only equal 4 is fun because it is not trivial.

I can remember beginning to program when I was young (in the 80's) and going to a local computer user group. We would meet at Round Table Pizza and discuss the latest tricks with DOS TSRs, assembly language on the i386, etc. It was a lot of fun, and was our hobby. I get that same satisfaction from the local GNU/Linux user groups. We all meet, share ideas, and have a lot of fun. The openness and flexibility of the OS are partly why I use GNU/Linux.

The fact that a lot of software for GNU/Linux is written by hobbyists is why sometimes not a lot of effort is spent on the user interface. It's like an OS "by hobbyists, for hobbyists." To say that it *should* compete with other OS's for the average desktop is just bizarre. Sure, it *can* do a lot of the things other OS's can do, but I would not expect my grandmother to be able to 'tail /var/log/messages' to see why her wireless card is not working. The fact that the user community tends to be fairly skilled makes it fun to participate, and explains why a nice GUI is not always necessary.

As a side note, I am dismayed at the increasing corporate hostility toward hobbyists and enthusiasts. Software patents and the DMCA are being used as warhammers to eliminate the hobbyist market. The whole SCO fiasco is just a symptom of the sickness that pervades the business culture in the U.S. This hostility is another reason why I choose to use and contribute to GNU/Linux.

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"One should guard against preaching to young people success in the customary form as the main aim in life. The most important motive for work in school and in life is pleasure in work, pleasure in its result, and the knowledge of the value of the result to the community." -- Albert Einstein
Reply #7 Top
Zoomba, funny you're talking about your mother. That's exactly how I set up MY mother. She never had a computer before, she was retired and just needed something to browse the Internet, send email and write letter in Word and some spressheets in Excell. She didn't want to spend a lot of money (as little as possible). So I got her a refurbished Pentium 2 with Mandrake Linux. She never complained. She got the job done.
Reply #8 Top
Shopko:
Dealing with the complexity really is part of the fun


That is actualy exactly how I really got interested in PC's. My first "computer" was a Mac and I had it for 7 years. After 7 years, I still knew nothing about computers, as I didn't have to. When I got my first PC with Windows 3.1, I learned more about computers and how they worked in less than one year than in all 7 years using a Mac. And I found myself actually having fun poking around system files, changing settings in DOS, etc. Ah! Good old autoexec.bat!
Anyway, Linux is much more friendly today than Windows was back then.
Reply #9 Top
Well, if nothing else my Linux experiences have given me a greater appreciation for Windows, good and bad. Kind of like Litestep giving me an appreciation for some Explorer features.
I really WANT Linux to succeed and be just as versatile as MS Windows, but just as Brad said, whenever shortcomings are pointed out, Linux advocates say you (1) don't need it, or (2) the extra work you have to do is just proof of the superior stability. That kind of thinking is going to keep Linux always playing third fiddle in the battle for the home user, or the corporate desktop.
Linux seems to have a definite edge in the server arena. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems I read that something like 90% of the email servers run some flavor of Linux, as well as over half of the web servers out there. Of course servers aren't about pretty interfaces or playing games, or balancing your checkbook. They're about functionality. And, let's face it, servers are pretty much run by computer-geeks who probably don't get out enough. (No offense to any computer-geeks ut there, I spend waaayyy too much time in fromt of a monitor) The average user really doesn't care how stable his system is until it crashes. He just wants to surf the web, read email (brought to him on an Apache server) and pay his bills. For all the posturing and debate within the Linux community about what a superior OS they have, they fail to make their product attractive to the average desktop user.
Some distros are making some headway (Linspire, RedHat, Mandrake)with packaged set-ups, but, as soon as something needs to be installed, the problems start. (Ihave a mini-rant posted somewhere about the joys of trying to install Firefox in Mandrake)
For all the zealous loyalty Linux inspires in it's users, it's going to have a hard time finding an identity that mainstream users feel comfortable with.
Reply #10 Top
Well, if we're talking ease of installation, nothing beats a Mac. Drag and drop from the CD and it's installed. Now THAT's how easy it should be. Not all that DLL and registry crap. If I want to uninstall? Just take the folder and drag it to the trash bin! Buh bye!
A lot of Linux distro (and especially a lot of software packages) may indeed be a PITA to install software (make install?!?), but a few distros are getting there, and even in some cases (some Debian based) making it easier than on Windows, but lets face it, Windows installations aren't exactly friendly either. We think they are cause we're used to that misery, but it's a far cry from seamless. Especially when it comes to UNinstalling it...
Reply #11 Top
Indeed. I wish that uninstalling program and all of it's crap like registry entries consists of just dragging folder to trash.
Reply #12 Top
I have always thought the debate about "my OS is better than your OS" to be childishly absurd. Each has it's own streghths and weaknesses as well as it's own niche market.

Windows and Mac are targeted for the mainstream "I don't want to learn how it works, I just want it to work" market and they have done an excellent job at it. The average mainstream user just wants to surf the web, send emails and IMs, and maybe play some games or watch a movie.

Linux, and here I mean distributions which are based upon the Linux kernel, has pretty much been the realm of the techno-geek for 20 years. Until recently, Linux distribution developers weren't targeting the mainstream user. They were targeting the network admin, the developer, and the hobbyist, and they did a great job of it.

Recently the Linux community has recognized the value of appealing to the mainstream user. Several Debian-based distributions have made installing software and even full system upgrades a matter of a click of a mouse. No dependency problems to deal with, no dll problems to deal with, it just installs.

Automatic hardware configuration has advanced by leaps and bounds in some Linux distributions because of this change in viewpoint as well. My "flavor" of choice, Simply Mepis, is extremely good at detecting and configuring hardware automatically. I expect this is a trend that can only continue in the Linux market.

The biggest problem facing the Linux developers with regard to hardware in the past has been a lack of cooperation from the hardware manufacturers themselves. They were in bed with Microsoft and were either unwilling or, due to contractual obligations unable to provide the linux developers with the needed resources to develop proper driver modules for the kernel. This atmosphere has changed somewhat and more manufacturers are working with Linux developers to create the Linux kernel drivers for their equipment.

As for the advocates, yes I am one as well. I really like Linux and use nothing else. FOR ME, it allows me to do everything I want it to do. I have convinced some friends to install a Linux OS on their systems and they have been very happy with it as well.

Is Linux ready for mainstream use? Almost. Almost, but not quite.

Do I espouse the glories of Linux over Windows or Mac? Nope. I do say what I like about Linux, and am not afraid to say it still neds improvement in the area of mainstream user friendliness. Is Linux the perfect OS? Nope. Is Windows? Nope. Mac? Nope again.

There is no such animal as the perfect OS. Period.
Reply #13 Top
Well, if we're talking ease of installation, nothing beats a Mac. Drag and drop from the CD and it's installed. Now THAT's how easy it should be. Not all that DLL and registry crap. If I want to uninstall? Just take the folder and drag it to the trash bin! Buh bye!


Heartily seconded!

The other issue is @#$%^& restarting after install/uninstall

Last time I played with Linux there were some instances at least where you only needed to restart the relelvant module/process, but Windows is a dog in this regard.


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Reply #14 Top
First.. how many of u have actually used Linux? im not a huge fan of it (i downloaded and made a live CD of it, it was linux SLAX KILL-BILL version) and the only problem i had was windows software (couldnt use corelDRAW so i decided to not use linux after that one, and the kill-bill version is supposed to be windows software compatable, lol) and ejecting my CD drives (which was rediculous, i mean, i couldnt open my cd drives? how stupid can u get. its a live CD. how do i put in a different disk with say, a few PNG files or something)

Second.. Windows kicks all other OS's @$$ out the window. im not joking, either. It's a good OS, with plenty of functionality, if u set it up right, which im still doing, lol)
Reply #15 Top
how many of u have actually used Linux? im not a huge fan of it


I've had it installed once or twice. Seemed like a lot of fiddling to get things done - mind you this was Red Hat 7 or something... quite a few years ago.

and the only problem i had was windows software (couldnt use corelDRAW so i decided to not use linux after that one, and the kill-bill version is supposed to be windows software compatable, lol)


I daresay that there's be much tweaking & setting up before you could try that! Anyway you're supposed to use all the free OSS that Linux has which is just as good ! + huge *wink*

i mean, i couldnt open my cd drives? how stupid can u get. its a live CD


I think if you're going to load other data with the CD drive you wouldn't use a live CD! They're more for demoing the SW or restoring dead systems etc. Besides the performance would've been terrible - CD speeds are nowhere near HDD speeds!


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Reply #16 Top
I have used a GNU/Linux OS. I have a dual boot set up on my computer in fact (definition: I have a separate hard drive partition with the PCLinuxOS distribution of GNU/Linux in addition to the hard drive partition with windows). For so-called basic computing needs, like web surfing, e-mail, IM, playing music, watching movies, and word processing, it's perfectly fine. I can even do some graphics with it thanks to the vector drawing program Inkscape and the GIMP for more advanced bitmap/photo editing. The KDE environment is fun to play around with too; it's far more customizable on its own than Windows is. With Windows, you have to download a lot of different programs to get some of the same things KDE lets you do. For instance, I can change any icons I want easily just by copying and pasting .pngs into the right folder. No $14.95 Icon Packager program is needed.

That said, it's not perfect. The variety of software is greatly reduced as the number of users of GNU/Linux computers does not warrant making or porting a lot of commercial programs for it. There are some pretty spiffy programs, but a sizable amount you have to buy from companies like Linspire while using their distribution, which you also must buy. Basically, overcoming a monopoly like what Windows has is a long process where progress is generally slow. The growth rate for GNU/Linux however is faster than that of Mac OS X and there's noticeably more software available for OS X than for GNU/Linux.

It's essentially a hobby for me. I haven't the slightest clue how to edit config files or any of the other in-depth things but I can still be productive and do things like install and unistall software. Basically, it's just different, and it seems hard but that's only because I don't know how to use it. I know people who have used Macs for over a decade who are lost when trying to use Windows for the same reason. Windows has plenty of flaws, such as the security problems, a cryptic registry, requiring defragmentation (why does it allow itself to get fragmented?), and restart after install. There's no such thing as a perfect OS, and there's no guarantee there ever will be. The only reason why Windows has such a wide monopoly is because Apple refuses to license their OS so that companies other than Apple will be allowed to make Mac compatible machines. It's not due to some kind of inherent superiority or usability features, just a flawed Apple business plan that they still refuse to reverse.
Reply #17 Top
Underdog45 - maybe you can teach me how to install programs on Linux. I run Fedora Core 3. Let me know!!
Reply #18 Top
Don't most Linux distro's use some sort of 'package' manager for installs - eg RPM ?

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Reply #19 Top
I guess some things you have to compile yourself. (And that's what I wished I knew how to do.)

Guess we need to start a new thread...
Reply #20 Top
Guess we need to start a new thread...


You could always hook up with a linux forum BUT...

Finding one friendly to newbies, well that's a whole 'nother story


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Reply #21 Top
maybe you can teach me how to install programs on Linux. I run Fedora Core 3. Let me know!!


The distro I use has the APT system for programs with a GUI frontend called Synaptic. It automatically looks up the file listings in the package repositories and automatically checks for dependencies when installing. That's the only way I know how. From what I have read the default equivalent in Fedora is something called YUM. I don't know whether or not it has a GUI front end or if it's all command line. Go to www.fedorafaq.org to get specifics on how it works, and visit to Fedora page at distrowatch.com for more links. That's probably not a whole lot of help, but as I said before I am far from a guru. Good luck!
Reply #23 Top
i have read the article pointed to in this "blog" entry and have posted some answers to the requests from there over on osnews but i can squeeze some in here to.

the most worrying thing about then where these persistent network access of diffrent things. they are a security crisis waiting to happen even if the connection is supposedly encrypted. problem is that i have seen to many people share whole hardrives as read/write on lanpartys and so on. if so i try to drop a file on their desktop pointing out the fact. points is that if its a one click and run deal then people will forget they ever activated it.

this is in fact one of the things that make recent linux distros so secure straight after install, any and all features are turned off. hell i recall trying to add apache to a mandrake install, first a popup asking if a knew what i was doing and then a popup asking if i wanted it activeted at boot-time, and the default was to not have it so. but i can still mess around with my desktop layout without trouble, hell i can log into kde one time and gnome the next as a normal user. recent experiences trying to mess with the windows looks as a power user gave me experiences like it quietly resetting changes i did to the start menus apperance and so on.

to me windows is for admins that want to show how much they can microcontrol their users ability to do stuff. while linux are for the admins that can let the users roam free, knowing that they can only hurt themselfs in the prosess.

ie, setting up and turning on advances features (most importantly network features) should be diffucult as then its left to people that have the will, dedication and/or pay to know how to do it right. if not then it should come with the most restrictive of defaults. to pull out the good old car, if you want to fix something or add a new component to it then you either learn how to do it or get aid from the local garage. why should the computer, a even more advances creature of technology, be any diffrent? giving people a false sense of power and control by ease of use just makes them blind to the hazards of computeing.

if you think you need activex support then turn it on, and then have to feed it sites and domains for it to work (only on the internal lan, only on this website and so on).

allso, to set up effortless VPN connections (basicly what being able to access files from diffrent machines across the net realy is) one would have to wrestle with firewalls, not all of them like vpn connections. and dont come dragging upnp, thats basicly undermineing the biggest reason to have a firewall, the ability to control what ports are available outside. write a worm that support upnp, spread it useign spyware and social engineering and whammo, instant zombie/bot-nets, complete with firewalls and all.

the more manual work have to be done, the more concious a person becomes about what he is doing. and allso creates more hoops for a criminal to jump thru, and less chance for him to find a easy way in as more stuff have to be stacked in his favor for it to happen.

any machine sold preinstalled should come with minimal features turned on and a precreated normal access user that you get autologged into first time. create a barrier system so that a user can install software inside his personal area, this software cant go outside of that area (rather then now where all software is installed at admin level, even linux should be simpler here). hardware like printers and burners should be available on this user level tho so that the user dont have to feel like he needs to be in admin to access it simply.

heh, maybe mac realy is the best os for the common user after all...
still, i have a feeling that both windows and linux have a similar potential. only that windows may have to be willing to break some eggs to get there, and linux will maybe have to forgo some of its unix past to get there.
Reply #24 Top
Kona; The distribution you are using is a RedHat based distro which uses RPM to install new packages. To install a package you simply download an RPM (filenam.rpm) and use your package manager to extract and instal it.

For installing other packages, these come as .tar files. You have to extract these, depending on how they were archived. Some are filename.tar.bz or .gz.

You need whatever bzip or gzip or unzip is needed.

After extracting, read the "install" file which contains instructions on how to compile and install that package. It's usually a matter of running the shell script "./configure" then "./make" and then "./makeinstall". The install file will explain it.

IF you have all the dependency packages installed, it will configure, compile, and install. If not, you'll have to locate and install those first. (Same with the RPM packages)

If you'd like to be able to install without jumping through all of this crap, get a good Debian-based distro. One command to download, install and configure. It also automatically located, downloads, and installs whatever dependencies are needed. Makes life a lot easier.
Reply #25 Top
Mason: for now I'm back in XP land. Maybe I'll try Linux again sometime down the road.