More torture please, and more complaining about same please

from JoeUser Forums
With all of the fuss about Alberto Gonzales' nomination to be Attorney General, and the Democratic grilling that is going on now in Congress over it, I've reached that conclusion (it wasn't difficult at all) that former Sen. Zell Miller was right, Democrats, especially liberal ones, want us to fight wars with spit balls.

Personally, I'm disappointed we aren't applying more torture tactics in the on-going fight against terrorists.

The enemy in this fight is one that is fighting without rules. They're not constrained by standards of human decency, and they certainly aren't signatories to the Geneva conventions.

They can -- and do -- use and mis-use women, children and other seemingly innocent lives in their battle of hatred against all things U.S.A. related. They have no moral lines to worry about crossing, and they have no concern that others will be shocked or horrified at the measures they go to. Instead of being shocked or horrified, their target audiences are left cheering, with their morale boosted, because they know they are striking at us where it hurts, and we can do nothing in return because our moral values and standards of human decency won't allow us to.

Well, I say it's time to really toss off the chains and shackles we've put ourselves under. We should clearly and unequivocally state that we will use ANY AND ALL MEANS short of murder and whole dismemberment of any suspected terrorists that we may capture to obtain information about future terrorist activities and plans. We should make it clear that captured terrorist combatants may be detained permanently, without a right to access to the U.S. legal system, and during that period may have food and water withheld, may not be granted any special diet, may not other wise benefit from their period of being detained, and may literally lose a finger or hand if necessary in order that those digits and/or limb may be sent back to family members who will quickly spread word to the terrorist's compatriots that the U.S. means business in this fight, and we will stop at almost nothing in order to achieve success.

We need to raise the stakes, and show these terrorists that they are fighting a fight that they can't win. We need to convince them that if they behead a kidnapping victim that they very well may see a group of detainees losing their fingers and hands. We need to show them that they can be fed pork products until they are so unclean as to never be accepted by Allah.

Bad cop versus good cop. It's time to be bad cops that get the job done until such time as we can go back to being the good cops we normally are.

Finally, I really hope that we get more complaining about our use of torture tactics. I hope that Democrats continue to decry our tactics and try to tie our hands behind our backs. I hope they are shown to be the ones that would dis-arm at all cost, and allow us to be attacked again. As people wake up and see that these appeasers are dead-wrong and that their friends are neighbors may wind up dead because of it, it will continue to serve the purposes of the Republican party, and for that, I say thanks.
politics
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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Even though it doesn't specify "enemy combatants". We signed the treaty, and we have to abide by it. If we don't...We are no better than the group of dirtbags we are fighting against.

On top of that, the Arab world will see it as more justification to Jihad their asses off.

I think maybe we should turn over our intelligence/interogation matters to someone who knows how to get around the rules. Perhaps the Moussad?

And just so ya know...Zell is a nutcase.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
The ironic part of it all is, even the Geneva Convention (which many seem to have elevated to canon, at least if it serves their political agenda) does not recognize terrorists or suidice bombers as POWs since they do not fit the following requirements:

Those entitled to prisoner of war status include:

4A(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfil the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (although this is not required under the First Additional Protocol);
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
4A(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4A(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

In an extreme idea, Item 4A(6) would come close to making them qualify, but of course, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
P.S.. More to the actual point. over the next few days, a lot of blogs, forums and mssg boards will get filled with the opinions of "We, The People", Talk Show hosts will fill air time, Senate Republicans will get a chance to tell the world how great he is, while Senate Democrats will make him sound like in reincarnation of Hitler himself. Alberto Gonzales will be confirmed as the next Attorney General, and whatever was said against him, will magically be transfered to Prs. Bush. Who, of course, is the real target in all this anyway.

Enjoy it while it lasts. ;~D
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
you can turn the other cheek just so many times then it is time to make a stand because it is also your response to preserve that which is right we dont have to be like them but we can create conditions to put the iraqe people accountable for there actions no more abading the enemy if they know there are effects to there choices and community there will be more of a positive responce and the enemy cannot go about freely to do as they wish
wrong doing has always caused innocent blood shed the fact is how much more innocent bloodshed will you put up with yours maybe your father mother daughter or son war is ugly no matter what you do it is the end result that justifies
the news media need to stay out of internal affairs if they were in roman times saying the same they would have been crucified war is hell
as for ben laden he has made us the laughing stalk of the world before 11 of sept. americans were respected all over the world you did not harm them because U.S. no. 1 power would be on them now they have came on our land killed us and is still running free what does that say to other 3 world countries if we do not make a stand then all we believe and all we stand for is for not it is time to see the bill paid
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Damn...I had to read that last one three times before i could make any sense of it.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't think I'd get it, even after 3 times.

as for ben laden


Is that the Ice Cream business partner of Jerry Laden? ;~D
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I say move all innocent ones outta middle east...... turn the sand into a huge glass structure thru nukes and then open a theme park there...call it ustabe binladen land maybe.......


um before anyone goes insane j/k or am i?

Old methods are best put 3 terroist of differant rank in chopper ask lowest ranking one question.. no answere OUT HE GOES , ask next one question no answere out he goes....by then the senior should have to be slapped to MAKE HIM SHUT UP.

lovingly.... old jarhead..
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

democrat senators weren't alone in their criticism of gonzales.  were he still the attorney general of texas, and had mrs. yates been given a death sentence, ive no doubt he woulda rushed her right into the death chamber.  there are many more issues involved (including an opinion concluding the executive branch is superior to both the legislative and judicial branches). 


be that as it may...


We should clearly and unequivocally state that we will use ANY AND ALL MEANS short of murder and whole dismemberment of any suspected terrorists that we may capture to obtain information about future terrorist activities and plans


out of all those who confessed during the various witchcraft trials and inquisitions, how many real witches were executed?

Reply #9 from PolMach Forums Top
Kingbee, I have no doubt that you'd be one of the first in line demanding someone's head on a stick if an attack were to happen again, especially if it happened close to you or people you love.

We aren't fighting a conventional war, and granting the people fighting against us more rights than which they are entitled to does nothing but serve notice to them that we can be attacked without fear of any repraisal they would fear or understand.

Treating this fight as a legal action, capturing people and locking them in jail for example, does not stop the plans that are already in motion. It doesn't prevent existing terrorist cells from following through on orders, or even getting new ones.

We must have the backbone to show that we will do what it takes to combat the problem, and not simply look past it or cry because we continue to be attacked when we just want to be friends to the world.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

capturing people and locking them in jail for example, does not stop the plans that are already in motion. It doesn't prevent existing terrorist cells from following through on orders, or even getting new ones.


torturing would-be martyrs plays right into their hands. 

Reply #11 from PolMach Forums Top
torturing would-be martyrs plays right into their hands.


Anything we do with them - short of coming out and saying that as of tomorrow the U.S.A. is an Islamic Theocracy with hard-lined rules in place - is playing into their hands (and even that plays into their hands).

Again, you can cry that we're sinking to their level, but we must fight them in a way that they will understand, and must show them that they won't be martyrs.

In their world and their fundamentalist religion, if the head of a person is not with the body, that person can't cross into heaven. That's why there've been beheadings. Well, we need to send back a message that their bodies will also not be treated in accordance with their religious beliefs, and whatever is possible to be done to ensure they don't get to experience martyrdom should be done.

As an example, start spreading the word that we'll embalm them in bacon grease, or if we cut off a finger, we'll cauterize the wound with hot bacon grease and leave them "unclean" after words. If they start hearing that, they'll call us barbarians (which they already do), but they may seriously rethink their desire to try to be martyrs to begin with.

Finally, if these same people are embarrassed by sexual humaliation, being forced to lie naked on a stack, or by being led around on a leash by a female soldier, then we are doing the right thing -- except that we need to spread the images of same much farther, and more widely, so that future combatants on their side know that there is a price to pay, which they may not really be ready for.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Excellent article.

We aren't fighting a conventional war, and granting the people fighting against us more rights than which they are entitled to does nothing but serve notice to them that we can be attacked without fear of any repraisal they would fear or understand.


“Republican Guard divisions have only been able to conduct sporadic attacks on our forces. Of the 800-plus tanks they began with, all but a couple of dozen have been destroyed or abandoned. We have more than 7,000 enemy prisoners of war. We are restoring power to cities throughout southern Iraq. And we're delivering a growing amount of humanitarian relief to the Iraqi people in various locations.

“Iraqi citizens are assisting coalition forces in identifying locations of weapons caches, as well as the hideouts of the remaining elements of the Fedayeen Saddam and the Ba'ath Party members.” (Myers, April 7, 2003)

Question: Where are the 7,000 enemy prisoners of war now?

It's a joke, a revolving door; in war, only when the enemy begs for peace can success be declared. The will to fight must be beaten out of them.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I was watching the highlights from the hearing last night, and i think Sen. Joe Biden summed it up.

He said the reason we have to follow the Geneva Convention is so that our soldiers and airmen aren't tortured when under enemy control.(Joe's son is serving in the Army.) Now i know that the insurgency in Iraq is not technically a legitimate army, but torturing enemy combatants is justification for more those morons to make more beheading vidoes.

Another thing we have to remember here is that the groundwork for our stance on fair treatment of enemy combatants/soldiers was laid by none other than George Washington himself. We followed his original policies until the Geneva Convention was written. The USA has had a 230 year history of fair treatment. That is until Dubya showed up. Every president that preceeded him followed those guidelines. Lincoln, TR, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ,Reagan, Bush 1.0 and even Tricky Dick abided by the rules during wartime administrations. So Dubya gets a pass?

I think not. Torture is inhuman.

Here's a neat idea, how about sending more troops to kill them? How about sealing the borders? Maybe declare Martial Law? How about doing a lot of things that this administration has NOT done so far?

I guess hooking a car battery to somebody's gonads is good enough. Apparantly that's the NEW american way.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
He said the reason we have to follow the Geneva Convention is so that our soldiers and airmen aren't tortured when under enemy control.(Joe's son is serving in the Army.) Now i know that the insurgency in Iraq is not technically a legitimate army, but torturing enemy combatants is justification for more those morons to make more beheading vidoes.


Just because we follow the rules, doesn't mean that the other side will.

That's the fallacy of the argument that the left always makes here.

We can behave like complete gentlemen (and ladies), but it doesn't mean that the other side will not come along and blow up another twin towers, or perform another suicidal dive bomb into the Pentagon.

Please tell me when we blew up the equivalent of the twin towers, or the Pentagon in Afghanistan prior to 9-11-01? Ooops, didn't think you could.

Please tell me why, even when the world really had no idea about Abu G. prison, there were kidnappings and beheadings going on?

Again, until the other side really and truly understands that the price they pay will be at least equal, if not approximately 10 times higher, than the price they make us pay, they won't stop.

It's something the Israeli's learned a long time back, and part of why they are much more effective in their fight then we have been in ours. Even though they face a very determined enemy, they extract a serious price out of every enemy action, and it does wear down the will of those that fighting against them.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Fallacy??? It's the American way. 230 years of treating the ememy better than they treat us. So you're saying we should behave like the animals we are fighting against? Why don't we just ignore all international laws while we're at it.
Where would it end? Do we kidnap their women and exeute them every time they kill a civilian? Doing so would turn us into what dubya calls a "rogue nation". Now there's a contradiction.

That's not democracy folks.

I wouldn't call what the Israelis are doing "effective" by any stretch of the definition. Last i checked the Intifadah was still humming along. But i think Arafat had a lot do with that , thank god he's worm food now.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
And in the end who's fault is the uprising? That's right.....Dubya! If that guy had ever fought in a war he would realize you don't claim victory and send the troops home until the last bad guy is either dead or in prison.

The war hasn't been won yet. Do it right the first time or don't do it at all...But the Bush family doesn't know anything about that. This whole mess stems from daddy's lack of will to take Saddam out in the first place. If they would have just done that we wouldn't be in nearly the mess we are in now.
Reply #17 from PolMach Forums Top
Reply #16 By: thatoneguyinslc - 1/7/2005 5:59:45 PM
And in the end who's fault is the uprising? That's right.....Dubya! If that guy had ever fought in a war he would realize you don't claim victory and send the troops home until the last bad guy is either dead or in prison.


So it's Dubya's fault that the WTC was attacked back in the 90's when Bill Clinton was President of the U.S.? 1993: World Trade Center bomb terrorises New York

So it's Dubya's fault the Cole was attacked in 2000, before the election was even held? U.S.S. COLE ATTACKED -- October 12, 2000

How about the Khobar Towers Barracks (also happened during Clinton's watch) - is Bush responsible for that too?

How about the Blackhawk Down incidents and pathetic U.S. response back in the 90's -- also Clinton's watch -- Bush's fault?

Did Bush attack someone before 9-11-2001? I don't seem to recall him doing so, perhaps you can jog my memory.


Claiming that any of the current terrorism *anywhere* is Bush's fault is just pathetic. Certainly we've changed the target, and put the fight into the back yard of the terrorists, but they existed long before George W. Bush was President, and may exist long after -- if we do not do everything that is necessary to prove to them that it's a fight they cannot win, can't afford to wage, and don't even want to think about engaging in. They have to be broken to a point that they'll not even try to fight, and then perhaps they may learn that the best way to fight us is to negotiate with us, work through diplomatic channels, and use the world stage to peacefully demand change in the direction they wish to go.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
I do not believe that torture, indiscriminately applied will be successful. that said, Terrorists like Abu Musab Al Zarqawi do not follow the rules of land warfare, the geneva conventions or any of the rules that are
put in place to make combat more "civilized". I would personally do harm to AMZ until the things he told me checked out but my concerns are as follow:

1. Carte blanche on torture only reduces cooperation from non terrorist civilians. Since if they came in to gve up information, what is to stop the person recieving it from deciding that that person is holding out?

2. A lot of people could be put under torture due to false accusations from someone with a grudge. Remember that hard feelings can last a long time. Where are the checks and balances?

3. There are no checks and balances to protect someone falsly accused, the torture is a means to an end and the only people who have control of the torturers, (Their Superiors) have a vested interest in getting the information by any means.

4. People still lie while being tortured. And when the torture is so severe that the subject talks, he will say anything that the interrogator wants to hear. Not a very effective method.

5. I also doubt that any of our POWs from the VietNam war would approve of it after being subjected to it.

6. It just isn't the American Way ! You can't just ignore the Constitution and the rule of law because "They are only terrorists!"


BTW Line 6 was very close to a conversation I had with one of my bosses on 911. The Geezer response (slightly paraphrased) " We're Americans, and we do it the right way! because we have to show we aren't %^^%ing animals like them!"
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
boy has this degenerated to petty bickering. sad.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
everybody has made good points on both the left and right scale so i ask a question? what will the iraqe people do after we are gone it is them who will have to maintain the freedom of what they have bear in mind there resources has been ours and little of theirs because of lack so what are the solutions for permanent resolve because you know they will face the same problems we are looking at now in this blog
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Personally, I'm disappointed we aren't applying more torture tactics in the on-going fight against terrorists.


Frankly, I don't get pissed off very easily, but you will burn in hell for this horrific belief. You are the downfall of America. I am embaressed and disapointed to have people like you in my country. You don't belong. I would rather like to exchange you and all your hatefull buddies and exchange them for Mexican immigrants. I'm sure they would love you down there. You are the cause of terrorism in this country, in fact you sir are a terrorist because you cause the Islamic peoples and other peoples of the world to look upon us in such a way, which was the reason Sep. 11 happened.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Personally, I'm disappointed we aren't applying more torture tactics in the on-going fight against terrorists.


Frankly, I don't get pissed off very easily, [Censored, because I know this post would be immed. deleated if I left what I wrote]. You are the downfall of America. I am embaressed and disapointed to have people like you in my country. You don't belong. I would rather like to exchange you and all your hatefull buddies and exchange them for Mexican immigrants. I'm sure they would love you down there. You are the cause of terrorism in this country, in fact you sir are [censored] because cause the Islamic peoples and other peoples of the world to look upon us in such a way, which was the reason Sep. 11 happened.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
We should clearly and unequivocally state that we will use ANY AND ALL MEANS short of murder and whole dismemberment of any suspected terrorists that we may capture to obtain information about future terrorist activities and plans



out of all those who confessed during the various witchcraft trials and inquisitions, how many real witches were executed?


Excellent point. After a certain point, anyone will admit, and name, and they don't care if it's true or not. They just wants to stop the pain.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top

That's the fallacy of the argument that the left always makes here


it's not a left-right issue.  


rear adm. john hutson, who was recently the navy's judge advocate general, released a letter he sent monday to the judiciary committee noting that gonzales' recommendations "fostered greater animosity toward the United States, undermined our intelligence gathering efforts, and added to the risks facing our troops serving around the world."


senator lindsay graham (r-sc)--who has 20 years of experience as an air force judge-advocate general--told gonzales: "I think you weaken yourself as a nation when you try to play cute and become more like your enemy instead of like who you want to be."


in response to gonzales' claim that this was a different enemy, graham said: "But we're not like who we want to be and who we have been, and that's the point I'm trying to make. When you start looking at torture statutes and you look at ways around the spirit of the law, you're losing the moral high ground."


i doubt ssg geezer thinks of himself as being on the left. 

Reply #25 from PolMach Forums Top
Frankly, I don't get pissed off very easily, [Censored, because I know this post would be immed. deleated if I left what I wrote]. You are the downfall of America. I am embaressed and disapointed to have people like you in my country. You don't belong. I would rather like to exchange you and all your hatefull buddies and exchange them for Mexican immigrants. I'm sure they would love you down there. You are the cause of terrorism in this country, in fact you sir are [censored] because cause the Islamic peoples and other peoples of the world to look upon us in such a way, which was the reason Sep. 11 happened.


Again, you show me where we EVER were torturing Islamics before 9-11-2001?

Show me where we bombed them before the WTC bombing attempt back in the 90's.

Show me where we failed to liberate the citizens of Kuwait?

Show me where we have failed to pressure Israel to try to make peace with the Palestinians?

So again, cry all you want that I, or people that think similarly to me, am the reason that we were attacked and that's why Islamics hate us, but you might also want to look in your video cabinet at the smut that shows the complete lack of decency we have. Look at the TV programs you watch, and look in the damn mirror. It is crying, whining, just make friends with them and they'll leave us alone people that let Adolph Hitler run throughout Europe, let Saddam Hussein and his regime rape, pillage and torture, and have let terrorists like (may he burn in Hell) Yassir Arafat ruin the chances for peace in the middle-east.