US Demoracy

Thanks for the insight. Americans are stuck with a corrupted government and don't know what to do about it, so live in denial till they can handle the truth. Eventually they will come around in numbers significant enough to address it, or they will lose their heritage (if we haven't already)as Rome did when it became expansionist. I'm sure you'll hear a lot of,"Shut up,or we'll bomb you,you commie foreigner" on this. Don't sweat it, as it demeans the 'right'
not you, to speak so.

Our government like any government could certainly stand some improvements but you won't find any better. I think we have alot to be proud of when it comes to our government when you take into consideration thet its only 230 years old. Unlike some who would love to tear it down, I choose to build upon what we already have and improve it.
Maybe one day Wahkonta Anathema will run for office and we can at last have a government that is heaven sent. GCJ

Countries act in their own self interest. Get used to it.

We are no different from others that put their own self-interests first. It was in our interest to back Saddam in their war against Iran and for us to back the Afghan war lords against the Soviet Union. Yet as suggested these interests do come back to haunt us.

Some enlightening comments, some expected. Brad, all countries do act in their own interest, true. However most don't treat the soverignty of others with the contempt that the US does.
My reply is most residents have had a gutfull of the aggorance of the US administration, and will continue to disagree and critise and grow increasing angry, some more than others, GET USED TO IT.
By the way the US did not back the Afgan war lords as such, at least not in the way you refer, the real truth in fact is far less a matter of supporting the little guy against the big, in fact the US agitated the afgan parties to a point of civil war whereby the USSR steeped in. This is fact, not fiction, and the argument is irrelevant as you do not address the real issue, which is the lack of respect shown by the US to the soverignty of other nations, to the point of supporting Bloodthirsty Dictators over democratically elected governments, why, because they do not to the US line. Most other governments do not do this and those that do are by no means doing it to the degree as the US. It seams to have reached a point where the US seems to be involved in almost every situation to some degree, and in most cases, generally not in a nice way. So Brad there is self interest and there is the US version of this, they are poles apart. I am yet to see evidence where the US has actually helped install a democratic , popular Government , that will serve the interests of that nation as opposed to serving the interests of the US.

What country out there treats other countries as well as it treats its citizens? And is the US deliberately murdering innocent people as the terrorists did or are people only saying that because they think of terrorists as innocent people?

Messy, most countries respect others, sorry to burst this bubble, but this is how the world in general works. As for the second question, well terrorism seems to be a word only attributed to the "BAD GUYS". No person or government who kills innocent people can be defended, nor can a government that supports this activity. As the facts stand the US administration has done both in the name of securing its interest and security. I do not for one moment believe they are alone, however the fact is they do invole themselves in activities which are not defensible, and in general they are one of the worst abusers of other countries soverign rights. Which when you consider that they proclaim to be the good guys, you haave to question the credibility of this intention, and ask and or presume that the intentions are less than good, and certainly not for the good of the epople in question at any given time. My argument is it is one thing to exploit a countries wealth and such, it is another totally different thing to instal and suport dictators, under the guise of security and really for self interest.
It is certainly not tolerable to support these governments either with cash or military traing or equipment no matter what the argument.

Finally I do not condone terrorism, however I do understand that when you are treated like shit by the big guys, eventually extrem reactions will happen, and as the saying goes, "WE RAP WHAT WE SOW", and in the case of the US this is becoming more apparent.

A good example of this would be the fact that almost all terror attacks worldwide, are in the main concentrated against US interests, even when they occur in other countries, and sorry I do not buy the argument that the US is well intentioned and the rest of the world just don't understand. We do, and this agorance will become a milstone around your neck, as we move forward in this century.

While the US and other large powers may be able to control governments, they cannot control individules, and groups if these, and this will be where resistance will grow, and sadly for many innocent US citizens, will tend to be in the extreme.

The other fact is that as the world shrinks due to technologies such communication and transport the US and her Allies, which I add includes my country Australia will feel the wrath of these people. I suppose the question is what do we do, do we all crawl into a whole, no, however to continue down the current path will not help. We need to learn that the world is very different place and learn to understand different cultures, and respect them and the soverignity of these nations. This does not mean we tolerate terror, however we do not need to give them a reason for teir so called reason to exist

The US has deliberately targeted innocent civilians? When was this? As for supporting dictators, when was the last time they did that, and if it happened during the Cold War, then I feel it is justified, as the dictators were seen as necessary evils to contain the spread of communism. Of course, many people might have preferred that the Soviet Union be the ultimate world power.

I know that America has intervened against the wish of others, but unless the US purposely murdered thousands of innocent people, then the punishment they bestowed upon us hardly fits the crime. As for reaping what one sows, why does this only apply to enemies of America, yet when these enemies who have terrorized America for years reap what they sow, it's not justified?

As for most terror attacks aimed at US interests, that's simple. Why try to terrorize a country with no influence when one can terrorize the one with the most?

"The US has deliberately targeted innocent civilians? When was this?"

Well... the Cambodia bombings of 1969-1975 killed approximately 600,000 innocent peasants...

My only answer would when has'nt it. Sorry supporting any one for what ever reason does not justify the action, for no matter what reason. Especially when it there is no possible reason than to make sure of your influence in the country.

I suggest you look at history a bit more closely, as you seem to have very little understanding of what has happened over the past several decades, in reference to US relations and intervention. When you create enemies when there only crime was to resist the will of the aggressor then what do you expect, you seem to fail to understand that the US and any other country with similar attitudes meddles in onother countries affairs that this is wrong, and not justifyable, no matter what the argument. I would suggets you read a recent book by "Noam Chomsky" for some insight into just what has been going on in the world, the title is Hegemony or Survival, there are many other publications, however this is a good start. As for whether the punishment bestowed fits the crime, I have never argued nor condoned the punishment, merely pointed out that if countries and this case the US continue their arrogant disregard of Soverignty of other countries, then this treatment will escalate, and to say that the US is terrorised due to its influence, is simply misunderstanding the point at hand. Countries who violate the soverignty of others and interfer in their domestic issues, to the point of influencing the democratic rights of the people of that country for their own ends are likely to attract negative treatment. If the US is one of these then it will increasingly be the reciepent of terror attacks.

The reality is that in many cases countries feel forced to take extremist measures such as building their own ability to use WMDs, not to be agressors , but to defend and deter against a percieved threat, just as the US does. By this I mean the US has WMD as a deterent against potential aggression, so do others, and they feel vindicated in doing so.

A good example of this in the past would be the Cuban Missle Crisis. In Brief, the US position Missiles in Turkey directed at the USSR, then they became agressive againt Cuba, Cuba sought the help of the USSR, USSR saw this as an opportunity to position their missiles in a similar way to the US, the old say in physics, "every action will cause an opposite and similar reaction". Put simply, you get bombs and face them at someone they get bombs and face them back, thus the stalemate. Really great way to create security .

I would stress that I in no way would say that the USSR was justified, however I hope you see my point,.

To be accurate, the US is NOT a Democracy. It is a Representative Republic. It is believed by many that a pure democracy would just be mob rule.

Mei Lai springs to mind too, of the US killing innocents. That was in Vietnam

How far into the past are we going because I'm not sure about the recent terrors of other world powers, although I do know that Vietnam was France's fault to begin with.
To suggest that the US is constantly seeking to kill innocent civilians is ludicrous at best, unless other countries have simply condoned the actions of the US for decades, actions which have not made it into the news. Of course, I guess that to somebody who hates the US, any action done in another country is seen as intentionally killing innocent civilians. And to think that the US was just meddling in other countries for the hell of it. There was a Cold War happening and the US did want to contain communism. Of course, maybe we should have just allowed the Soviet Union to do whatever it wanted.

You really don't get it do you Messy Mu, for a start, when one makes a critisim of the foriegn policy of a country, this does not mean that I hate the US, so I suggest that you learn that all people do not hate the US, nor at any point did I imply this let alone state it.

Secondly you obviously do not seem to take much notice of what goes on in the world on a day to day basis, as none of what I have said is past history any more than present.

Thirdly, besides comments that I have made implying that the US has been involved in activities where innocent people have died or been injured or had their lifestyle impacted in some, I have not implyed nor stated that the US goes out seeking to kill, I have stated that US foriegn policy does condone, support and involve the CIA and US military in actions which result in the Deaths , injuries and displacement, actions which are in the main not warrented, and are not for the benefit of the citizens of the said countries,.

My comments are not meant as a threat, to the contary they are to state facts which may, if understood, give some insight as to why the US is a prime target of terroists, as opposed to say Canada. If you do not get this well that you rpoblem, but just as I expected, many people would totally ignor what was intended as comments from a non US citizen, meant to give insight into what people feel about this and previous US Administrations.

The fact is that your best arguments are that this hasent happened or if it did some one else started, or that the US does not go around killing people, yet as yet youi have not once addressed one comment that I have made, once again I suggest you read the content of the argument, properly and then make comment.

I would like to add That if you would like an example of deliberate and unwarrented killing, one needs look no further than Gulf War 1, you may recall the Fuel Air bombing of retreating Iraqi soldiers, it was stated that these were the Republican Guard Retreating, when in fact they were concripts who did not want to be there, most being Shiti Muslims and Kurds, in all approx 200,000 were killed, while they were retreating, your Government at the time declared this a victory, when in fact it was a slaughter, you can look at it any way you like, but as I said History will be the judge of this action.

Its interesting when I start a debate over the US admin's lack of respect of others and yet the best I get back is symantics over whether the killing was dileberat or our fault, and whether the US is a democracy, I will take it that your lack of refutement of the real issues is in fact and admission of guilt.

Some enlightening comments, some expected. Brad, all countries do act in their own interest, true. However most don't treat the soverignty of others with the contempt that the US does.

1st how do you define sovereignty? So if some thug takes over the seat of government of a country, declares himself supreme overlord of said country and his thugs enforce their rule on the terrorfied population does he deserve the same sovereignty as say France?

They don't? Which countries in history that have had the power to violate the "sovereignty" of countries haven't excercised that power? You're kidding right? The entire history of Europe has been about violating the sovereignty of other countries.

inally I do not condone terrorism, however I do understand that when you are treated like shit by the big guys, eventually extrem reactions will happen, and as the saying goes, "WE RAP WHAT WE SOW", and in the case of the US this is becoming more apparent.

Name the specific action the United States did, that was unique, that you believe earned it 9/11 in response? How about a set of actions uniquely American.

I asked when has the US deliberately attacked innocent civilizans, which was answered with "when hasn't it?" I'm sure that many will agree with me when I say that it sounds as though that implies that hte US has deliberately attacked innocent civilians since its birth and continues to do so.
As for Canada not being attaccked by terrorists, I'm sure it's the same reason as to why Mexico and some tiny insignificant nation in Africa hasn't been attacked by terrorists. They have no influence. I think this is obvious.

Well, obviously the US doesn't always attack civilians, I think the point attempting to be made Messy Buu, was that in the past, the United States has attacked and killed civilians, something you claimed had never happened.

Not once did I say that the US has not attacked and killed civilians, but if we're going to use the past to criticize the present US, then I can gladly say that anything the US has done does not compare to the evils of Europe. Therefore, rather than criticize the US, I think we should focus on ridding the world of the evil that is Europe.

Civilians die in war. What is the point of arguing that?

The United States certainly didn't target civlians in Iraq.

Interesting reply, in regard to thugs taking over countries, lets explore, Nicarauga. The People of the country vote for a government, your country does not like them, or more correctly they do not cow tow to Washington, Your government send support to a rebel force, in the form of arms, money and advisers, you assist in the overthrow of the said democratically elected government, and in turn a thug takes power, and Washington is happy, not to mention, a not so subtle warning to the people of this country, at their next election about the folly of their ways, in who they may choose. The end result was a bloodthirsty repressive Dictator, who drove the economy into the ground. As for soverignty, well just as with the US most other countries do not believe that another country has the right to invade, that's soverignty, just as the US was rightfully upset when attacked by terroists.

Then again with the aggorance of the US I suppose you feel that you can pretty do what you like when you like. This is really setting up a great future for future generations, one where as a nation you will be less secure both on the level of safty of its citizens and economy. But I suppose if ine puts their head in the sand then all is OK he Brad.

I should add that civilians do die in war, they are also killed by muderous Dictators, Just like Chile, face it Brad the US does not have a good record, and no matter what spin you want to put on it, thats the way it is, and with many countries finding that they oppose US forign policy and are not willing to cow tow, I suppose you could say that thats the way of the world.

Of course if countries like the US where prepared to look at why there is resentment towards them they may find out a way to stop terror,, because killig terroists does not stop them it just increases resentment and thus the threat, what you need to realise is every action does not lower the threat, it increases it. Then again I suppose that suites the amarican psychi. At least that is the way you would portray it, you know slow to anger, but piss us off and we will make you pay. Seems to fit with the way of thinking of terroists.

As for your comments Messy Buu, Europe has had a not to squeky history as has most of us, however we are not discussing the past we are discussing the now.

We are discussing the past though, which is why we are discussing past events of the US.

We are discussing a point which is yet to be properly Debated, that being the US administrations complete lack of recpect for other countries soverignty, You guys can debate the past and the present till the cows come home , you can also use the defense of others doing this, however it does not address the point at hand that is that in the past and right up to the present The US Government has violated the soverignty f others, sometimes directly sometimes VIA its agents, and by this I mean , supporting countries which do the same , that being violating the soverognty. The truth of the matter is the US Iss the largest Militaryt and Economic power in the world, and one would expect that they would lead by example, instead we have seen the opposite.
For me to list the actions of the US during the last century up to the present day would take up a very large space, so I refrain and give examples, however I did not start a debate to list these actions my point was and still is your lack of respect for others and the use of you power to facilitate this, and the ensuring reactions from others, to make a benign comment that the reason others are not attacked is because they do not have as much influence, is to say the least a total wank.
A good example would be, the US has pretty much along with France and the UK exploited the Arab States for most of the last century and continue to do so, they have through their agent bening Israel, terroised most Arab states, . The uk has for more than a century held power of Nth Ireland, France in Algeria, all these countries have suffered at the hands of terroists. Point being you build resentment through lack of respect and something will give.

Brad as for what did the US do so wrong to incur the attack of 9/11, lets see, military of Israel to secure dominence in the Arab states to secure flow of cheap oil, exploitation of these state again for oil, by supporting various governments, for instance, the Shah of Iran, a thug by anyones standards, support of Israels , murderous attacks on Lebanon, and massacre of many citizens, these are actions of the past which are still going, not to mention the US's very obviuos support of Iraq, a sworn enemy of the extremist Al Quadia. Then you ask me why do Muslims and Arabs feel so agrieved by the US that would attack the US.

Of Course if we want to go on discussing the past up to the present, lets look at Central and South America, where do I start Panama, Chile, Niaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, not to Mention Cuba, who did not become a threat until pushed into this position by continued attackes by the US, and are still being Victimised to this day for no other reason than the fact they have a communist government, which nationalised industry. Of course being the great Military power that they are we should all be really scared of them.

So whilist it is true that some european countries have been guilty of the same, it is the US the Dominent and only Superpower, which uses its might the most and ignors Un conventions and the general worlds community to do as it wishes.

It always strikes me a interesting the attitude of the US and UK inparticular to what is the soverign right of nations, and their patronising attitude to the rest of the world.

Maybe it's me, but I think that the Arabs who have terrorized Israel are as guilty as Israel in spreading the terror in the Middle East. We have supported Israel but have we ever given them license to do what they desire in the Middle East?
It also seems that people are criticizing the present US government for things in the past, such as supporting anti-Communist governments. My only advice to that is to get with the times, or let's judge all present governments by past actions no matter how different times were before. Perhaps it was wrong for the US to fight against communism with the zealous it did, but unless I'm mistaken, the US is no longer doing that.

I would just add a further comment of the issue of soverignty and the question of thugs.

No one and I include myself in this comment , would ever deny that in cases of obvious violations of human rights others should help, however it is more than in most cases this is not the case.

In the main it is for totally selfish reason that countries do what they do, and in many cases the thugs which have commited these crimes, have at sometime been on the payroll of the same governments which have deposed them.

It would be nice if we all helped countries when they need help and left them alone when they don't however this is not the case, as Brad said its the the way of the world.

And in most cases the reason behind violations of soverignty is for installing people who will allow the large economies to prosper at the expense of others, and this is the way of the world, however with the advent of technoligies in communication, people are becoming more aware of what is true and what is spin, ultimatly this will be what brings down the monopoly of power currently being exercisewd by the US and other like minded countries.

Sadly the reality for the US is that whether you agree with me or not, and we can argue this point till the cows come home, the reality is that unlike yourselves and me, who prefer to debate, there are people who will feel far more maligned and disenfranchised, and these are the people who will terroise countries like the US and Australia as a result, and until we move past retribution, and decide to look behind the reasons why in a more objective way, will we solve the problem of terror, and eliminate it. Sadly it will not be eliminated by killing off the perpatorators, as they become marytres to the cause and inspire more to do the same. Seems simple and yet we all know it is not , but if we fail to change we will reap what we sow, even if we do feel vindicated in our actions.