What Is It That I Do Not Get About Attack Values?

from GalCiv4 Forums

The following screen snapshot shows the result of a battle where I attacked an Asp with a Battle Axe.  When you look at the Attack values for all of the attacks by my Battle Axe you will see that the values are all less than the Beam Attack rating for my Battle Axe which is 6.

However, when you look at the Attack values of the first 2 attacks by the Asp you will see that they are both (7 and 9) greater than the Kinetic Attack rating for the Asp which is 4.  As a player, it does not make sense that an Asp with an attack rating of 4 can perform an attack with a value of 9.

I understand, but do not agree with, the argument a dev made in another thread that every attack must do Damage of at least 1 regardless of the attack rating of the attacker or the defense rating of the defender.  However, showing an attack value that is greater than the attack rating of the attacker does not look right as a player.  As devs, you may have some reason that makes sense to you for this kind of outcome, but you need to remember that perception is reality - if players think this is stupid and wrong, then it is.

galactic civilizations iv
41,148 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Yeah, combat is a total mess and probably always will be. It's always been pretty damn poor in the series, and they haven't innovated on it in decades. 

Reply #2 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

well it's 2 things... first the atk value is actually a random number between 1 and the attack value shown. and 2, there's this thing the battle log does where it changes the attack number to always be at least 1 higher than the defense roll (which is also a random number) so it always does at least 1 dmg. this is why the numbers never match up for that. they def know it works like this too... several ppl have commented about it

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

There is definitely something wrong there. The attack value shouldn’t exceed the max attack.  I wonder if there’s some fleet buff that is letting it roll a higher number.

Reply #4 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3

There is definitely something wrong there. The attack value shouldn’t exceed the max attack. I wonder if there’s some fleet buff that is letting it roll a higher number.

The battle log has been like this ever since the change (during the beta) to make every attack do at least 1 damage.

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Reply #5 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 3

There is definitely something wrong there. The attack value shouldn’t exceed the max attack.  I wonder if there’s some fleet buff that is letting it roll a higher number.

no, it's not a fleet buff. it's been reported by several ppl for a while... whatever the defense roll is, the attack roll will always be 1 higher so it can always do 1 dmg. happens with small, single ship vs ship battles all the time.

Reply #6 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Publius, reply 4

The battle log has been like this ever since the change (during the beta) to make every attack do at least 1 damage.

Yeah but its doing it "wrong".

Most of the time the battle log does it right. You roll your attack, I roll my defense. My defense is then lowered to 1 less than your attack if its equal or higher. Everything works.

However, every so often the reverse seems to happen, and the attack is actually raised to be 1 more than the defense. I don't know what triggers it, but I've seen it both ways.

 
Reply #7 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Stalker0, reply 6

Yeah but its doing it "wrong".

You're not disagreeing with me. I haven't called it wrong, but I have called it ludicrous and bogus.

Reply #8 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Publius, reply 7

You're not disagreeing with me. I haven't called it wrong, but I have called it ludicrous and bogus.

 

I agree, this scheme just sounds ridiculously silly.  I'm sure the logic behind it is in the forum somewhere, but just randomly toss the numbers and let 'em fall as they will.  What's wrong with that?  That would be much more fun than what it's currently doing.  There is absolutely no reason why the attacker should always get a point.

Reply #9 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting dppetey, reply 8

There is absolutely no reason why the attacker should always get a point.

It does have some merits:

  • It ensures you cannot build an "invincible fleet" that can just kill an opponent with impunity. Each combat has some HP attrition, which requires you either spend time to repair or swap out ships.
  • It allows for quantity over quality to win. In the early game once defensive studies is researched, while more weapon bonus on a ship is useful, its the amount of attacks that is actually more important (because every attack guarantees 1 damage). This means ships with multiple weapon types, and fleets with lots of ships, compete better than they would otherwise, at least until defense numbers start to grow.
  • It increases the value of HP modules. If you have an invincible defense than hp isn't that important, but in the current model a balance of defense and hp can be useful.

 

So ultimately I think the mechanic is fine, it just needs to be cleaner in the battle log. the idea that the defense is lowered below the attack is fine, its where the attack numbers suddenly skyrocket up that things look weird.

 
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Reply #10 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Stalker0, reply 9

    • It ensures you cannot build an "invincible fleet" that can just kill an opponent with impunity. Each combat has some HP attrition, which requires you either spend time to repair or swap out ships.

 

    • It allows for quantity over quality to win. In the early game once defensive studies is researched, while more weapon bonus on a ship is useful, its the amount of attacks that is actually more important (because every attack guarantees 1 damage). This means ships with multiple weapon types, and fleets with lots of ships, compete better than they would otherwise, at least until defense numbers start to grow.

 

    • It increases the value of HP modules. If you have an invincible defense than hp isn't that important, but in the current model a balance of defense and hp can be useful.

 


 

So ultimately I think the mechanic is fine, it just needs to be cleaner in the battle log. the idea that the defense is lowered below the attack is fine, its where the attack numbers suddenly skyrocket up that things look weird.

 

I guess if I was designing the game and I wanted to ensure defense didn't overwhelm offense I would design the game to have more powerful offensive weaponry than defensive options.  Don't alter the rolls, alter the design.  If a ship isn't good enough to win rolls by merit it deserves to get beaten.  But by taking pure rolls in combat there is always a chance an underdog could win.  One thing I don't like about the game is that the results of battles seem to always follow a fairly predictable course.  Having more variation would be welcome.  Allow an underdog to win every so often.

Reply #11 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Quoting Surge72, reply 1

Yeah, combat is a total mess and probably always will be. It's always been pretty damn poor in the series, and they haven't innovated on it in decades. 

Some folks here liked the combat system in GalCiv 2. I don't think any changes are needed. I find it unfortunate that GalCiv 2 has some problems playing on modern computers (can't alt + tab to desktop after planet invasions; it breaks everything) otherwise I'd be playing it more.

Reply #12 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

Originally, there was no 1 point minimum damage.  The result was you would end up with invincible fleets and extremely long turn times.

Reply #13 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

I've had invincible fleets in GalCiv 2. Good times.

Reply #14 from GalCiv4 Forums Top

"One thing I don't like about the game is that the results of battles seem to always follow a fairly predictable course.  Having more variation would be welcome.  Allow an underdog to win every so often."

The answer, of course, would be to allow some tactical combat decisions. However, every time this comes up there is a frenzy of denial and "this never going to happen in our game"

 

(shrug) What can you do?