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Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Q+A regarding Star Control and Paul and Fred

Given the ongoing discussion of the legal dispute between Stardock and Paul Reiche and Fred Ford, designers of Star Control I and II, I wanted to take time to make Stardock's position clear and address inaccuracies that have been promoted.

As the need arises, I’ll continue to update this post with additional questions and answers.

Q: What are the issues in dispute?

A: On the eve of launch of the beta of Star Control: Origins in October 2017, a game Stardock has spent the past four years working on, Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford, the designers of Star Control II for Accolade 25 years ago announced a new game, Ghosts of the Precursors as a “direct” sequel to Star Control even going so far as to promote it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.

They did this despite knowing Stardock had acquired the Star Control IP in 2013 and knowing before hand our announcement schedule. Their actions created confusion in the market as to the origin of Star Control games which is why we have trademark laws. 

When Stardock asked that they cease and desist marketing their game as a sequel to Star Control they refused and began demanding that the sale of the DOS games, which had been on sale continuously since before Stardock acquired the IP and for which they had been receiving royalties for during the entire time cease and began to disparage Stardock publicly in the press. 

Despite Stardock's best efforts to reach a private, mutually beneficial co-existence agreement, Paul and Fred responded with increasingly hostile, misleading public attacks and served Steam and GOG with DMCA take-down notices on all of the classic DOS games, including Star Control 3 which they had no involvement with all while continuing to promote their new game as the "true" sequel to Star Control.

In addition, Paul Reiche and Fred Ford also began to claim that various features of Star Control: Origins violated their copyrights such as the ship designer, user interface similarities and other elements that are not subject to copyright protection (you can’t copyright an idea and Star Control itself was inspired by many other games). They also began to demand special access to Star Control: Origins to inspect it and demanded the removal of the ship designer,

As a result of their broad interpretation of what they believe they have rights to combined with their willingness to instruct their lawyers to issue a DMCA take down notices, even on titles in which they had no involvement in, combined with their refusal to cease promoting their game as the sequel to Star Control, Stardock was forced to file a complaint over their continuing trademark infringement.

In retaliation, Reiche and Ford filed a countersuit seeking to cancel the Star Control trademark and for copyright infringement due to the sale of the classic Star Control games on GOG and Steam and are even suing GOG despite the fact that Reiche and Ford were the ones who claim to have helped get the classic Star Control games onto GOG.

Q: Why did Stardock file the initial lawsuit against Paul and Fred?

A: We had no choice after Paul and Fred filed DMCA claims against the distribution not only of Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which they admit they had no involvement.  The DMCA claims were reversed, but it was clear that our ability to create more experiences in the Star Control multiverse for fans would be at risk if they are allowed to continue to misrepresent their new game as being associated with Star Control without a license while simultaneously making broad, unsupportable claims of ownership on ideas and concepts that are present not just in Star Control games but games in general.  

Q: How did these unfortunate events come to pass?

A: Here is a timeline of the order of events:

  1. Stardock acquires the Star Control brand, copyright to Star Control 3, the license to use the Star Control classic characters, lore and the right to distribute the classic DOS games.  The DOS games are already available on GOG  with Atari listed as the publisher. (2013)
  2. Stardock discuss plans for the new Star Control.  They state that their employment by Activision prevents them from working on a new Star Coxntrol game and request that we not use the aliens from Star Control 2 but do not contest Stardock's right to do so.  (2013)
  3. Upon learning that Activision has blocked their ability to be involved and that Paul and Fred hope to one day to continue their stories, Stardock offers to transfer its rights to Star Control to them, thus uniting the Star Control brand with Paul and Fred's licensed IP.  (2013)
  4. Paul and Fred ask what Stardock acquired from Atari to which Stardock responds: The trademark, assets to Star Control 3 and the right to sell distribute, market and promote the original trilogy.
  5. Paul acknowledges Stardock's position and asks how much it cost.
  6. Paul and Fred politely decline the offer to acquire the Star Control IP. (2013)
  7. Stardock announces a reboot of Star Control and explicitly states that it will not include the characters from the classic series out of respect for Paul and Fred. (2013)
  8. Stardock spends the next 4 years and millions of dollars developing Star Control: Origins. (2013-2017)
  9. Stardock provides Paul and Fred regular updates on progress including video of pre-alpha footage, design notes, screenshots.  Relations are amicable and supportive. (2013-2017)
  10. Stardock updates Paul and Fred on Star Control: Origins release schedule and begins planning its 25th anniversary which will include releasing the classic games onto more channels.  Stardock asks if there would be any interest in having SC2 ships appear in Super-Melee. The games are submitted and approved by Steam in preparation (Summer 2017).
  11. Paul and Fred contact Stardock to inform them that they will be announcing a new game that will utilize the characters from their universe.  (Fall 2017)
  12. Stardock is both pleased and concerned about the timing of their plan, points out the licensing agreement would allow Stardock to use their IP (albeit at a higher royalty than Stardock was hoping for). Stardock asks that they coordinate these announcements together ensure there is no confusion and about the games appearing competitive. (Fall 2017)   
  13. Paul and Fred state they plan to make a sequel to Star Control II which would violate Stardock's trademark rights (you can't claim your product is a sequel to another company's product).  Paul and Fred also assert that Stardock does not have a license to their IP.
  14. In the email below Paul and Fred state that each party should work within its respective rights: Stardock having the Star Control trademarks and Paul and Fred owning all the IP rights to the works they created. Note that at this point, Paul and Fred recognized that owning the registration to the Star Control trademark also includes many common law trademarks. Hence "trademarks" plural.
  15. Stardock responds stating that as far as Stardock is aware, while Paul and Fred own the IP they created, Stardock does have an active licensing agreement that controls how that IP can and can't be used.  Stardock also reiterates that it has not used this license out of respect for Paul and Fred. (October 2017)
  16. Stardock states its concern at the idea of Paul and Fred representing their game as a "direct sequel", asks to schedule a call to discuss.  Note that at this point, Brad, like many, is under the impression that Paul and Fred essentially created Star Control on their own, a two-man team with licensed music was not uncommon thing back in 1992 (Stardock later re-evaluates that position after learning that the project had a large budget for 1990 and immense talent on it). (October 2017)
  17. Paul and Fred respond that they simply don't agree but provide no evidence as to why the licensing agreement would have expired. (October 2017)
  18. Stardock provides its reviewed legal position.  Stardock isn't using any IP from the classic games other than the right to market and sell them as they have been for several years.  (October 2017)
  19. Stardock points out that it has a license to the IP to use provided it pays a royalty of 10% (which is why Stardock has asked in the past for a new licensing agreement as 10% is too much for a cameo of a classic character). Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell suggests talking on the phone to iron things out. (October 2017).
  20. Email includes proposal:
  21. Paul and Fred refuse Stardock's proposal and begin to demand changes to Star Control: Origins.
  22. Paul and Fred, knowing the date Stardock was planning to announce the Fleet Battles beta, preemptively announce Ghosts of the Precursors as a direct sequel to Star Control II; use the Star Control II box (which is owned by Stardock) as the only art on the page for it; promote it to the media and to social media as the "true" sequel to Star Control.  (October)
  23. Despite having just stated that their efforts should be "separated" by each parties rights (Stardock with the trademarks) Paul and Fred almost immediately violate that understanding by using the Star Control trademarks throughout their announcement.
  24. The Star Control trademark is mentioned 4 times in the announcement, each with an (R) without mentioning Stardock leading a reasonable consumer to believe it is their mark (Ghosts of the Precursors is listed once). 
  25. Paul and Fred claim they "released" Star Control II on the same page that shows Star Control II with the Accolade mark misleading the relationship between Accolade and Paul and Fred (who, regardless of their tremendous work, were contracted by Accolade to create content that was then licensed into Accolade's product).
  26. The media follow-up by referring to it as "Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors". (October)
  27. Paul and Fred promote the idea that it's Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors and not its own game:
  28. The above is one example among dozens.
  29. Paul and Fred publicize coverage of their new game with each post using the Star Control mark but not a single one using the term "Ghosts of the Precursors".  Looking below, what's the name of their new game?
  30. Many posts and articles appear, endorsed by Paul and Fred that state that their new game is a "direct sequel" to Star Control.  Some refer to it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.
  31. Stardock moves forward on its 25th anniversary plans, release the beta of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles beta and relaunches the classic DOS games for the 25th anniversary on Steam. (October)
  32. Paul and Fred's attorney contacts Stardock's CEO.  This is the first time lawyers have been involved.  Lawyers take over. (October)
  33. Paul and Fred begin to demand that Stardock begin policing the Star Control community for fan art that they believe violates their rights (including members of this forum and on Steam). (October)
  34. Paul and Fred begin demanding the removal of features from Star Control: Origins including the ship designer (a feature that has been part of Stardock's games for over a decade). (October)
  35. Paul and Fred begin demanding insider builds of Star Control: Origins for inspection and begin insisting various broad features are their property despite having no right to do so. (October)
  36. Paul and Fred reject numerous attempts to create a co-existence agreement that would permit Ghosts of the Precursors to go forward independently.   (November)
  37. Paul and Fred insist they have the right to associate their game with Stardock's trademarks including referring to their game as the "true" sequel to Star Control. (November)
  38. Paul and Fred demand that the DOS games be removed from distribution while still providing no evidence to support their claim that the agreement had expired. (November)
  39. Paul and Fred begin to make public defamatory blog posts and tweets about Stardock. (December)
  40. Paul and Fred file DMCA notices against Steam and GOG not just for Star Control 1 and 2 but also Star Control 3 which Stardock holds the federally registered copyright for and that Paul and Fred had no involvement in. (December)
  41. Stardock's attorneys file a suit against Paul and Fred for trademark infringement and other causes of action. (December)
  42. Paul and Fred's attorney files a lawsuit against Stardock alleging copyright infringement and other causes of action. (February).
  43. Paul and Fred's PR firm releases a press release to the wire services accusing Stardock of "copyright theft" do press interviews attacking Stardock. (February)
  44. This post is initially made. (February)
  45. Paul and Fred post an email exchange they claim is between themselves and Atari, something they had not shown to Stardock and still have not provided to Stardock to evaluate. 
  46. Paul and Fred post what they claim is a Stardock settlement proposal in violation of federal rule 408. Stardock denies the accuracy. (March)
  47. Paul and Fred's PR firm targets Stardock CEO, Brad Wardell personally on Twitter for abuse with an inflammatory and completely inaccurate social media post. (March)
  48. Paul and Fred like a tweet that purports that these activities have cost Stardock up to 50% of potential sales and may lead to review bombing of the final game:  (March)
  49. To make clear that Stardock's concern is regarding the protection of its Star Control IP and not the sales of Star Control: Ur-Quan Masters, it decides that it will be suspend sales of the classic games until the dispute is resolved starting April 4. (March 2018).

Q: Don't Paul and Fred contend that the 1988 licensing agreement with Accolade has expired?

A: That is their position.  However, since the dispute began, Stardock has chosen to err on the side of caution and operate as if that is the case.   Stardock requested that GOG and Steam remove the games for sale pending a resolution.  The 1988 agreement, however, does not have anything to do with the Star Control trademarks were were always owned by Accolade and were assigned to Stardock.   

Stardock's ownership of the Star Control trademark is incontestable.  You can review the federal registration that dates back to the 1990s here.

Q: But isn't it true that Star Control: Origins has very similar gameplay to Star Control II? That you explore planets, travel through hyperspace to different star systems, meet with aliens? Couldn't their copyright of Star Control II mean that Star Control: Origins is too similar?

A: You cannot copyright an idea.  Putting aside that Star Control itself borrowed many ideas from many other games, copyright protects creative expression. Not game play.  

There are articles you can read that discuss this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone 

https://venturebeat.com/2013/03/16/defeating-mobile-game-clones-why-copyright-protection-is-not-enough/ 

https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/11752/is-it-legally-possible-to-make-a-clone-of-the-game 

Obviously, anyone who has ever played Angry Birds or Candy Crunch already knows this.

That said, Star Control: Origins is not a clone of Star Control II.  The 25-year gap in game technology allows Star Control: Origins to deliver a much richer experience.  So while the core concepts remain true: You are the captain of a starship traveling through this part of the galaxy, meeting aliens, engaging in battles, exploring planets, the implementation is very different.

In short: Gameplay clones aren't illegal and even if it were illegal, Star Control: Origins is not a clone. 

 

Q: Why does Stardock claim that Paul and Fred were not the creators of Star Control?

A: Paul and Fred were the designers of Star Control I and II.  In the credits, on the box and elsewhere they had previously officially listed themselves as either developers or designers.  

While Stardock has no objection to “creators” in the casual sense, legally, and when trying to promote a product in commerce, they are not. Most of the Copyrighted material people think of as being important to Star Control was created and owned by others. 

For 25 years, Designer was their official designation.   

It is Stardock's opinion that they have begun to focus on referring to themselves as "creators" in their marketing in order to give the impression that Ghosts of the Precursors would have the the same creative core as Star Control II.   This is not the case.

What most people do not realize is Star Control II had, in essence, the dream Sci-Fi team as mentioned in this 25th anniversary tribute. The lead animator went on to lead the animation at Pixar and is the director of the Minions movies.  Many of the alien designs were created by the artist who went on to design Darth Maul and other Star Wars and Marvel movie characters.  Many of the most quoted lines came from seasoned Sci-Fi writers.  The engaging music was created by others.

We respect Paul and Fred’s crucial contributions as well as the rest of the talented team who worked on Star Control.  

Q: Who owns the Star Control trademark?

A: Stardock is the legal owner of the federally registered trademark for Star Control.  You can view it here. https://www.trademarkia.com/star-control-75095591.html 

Q: What does Stardock want out of this lawsuit?  

A:  Our ONLY goal is to protect our ability to tell more stories in the Star Control multiverse.  We remain fans of Paul and Fred and their contributions to Star Control.  However, given the confusion they’ve created in the market by promoting their new game as a “true sequel” to Star Control II combined with their abuse of the DMCA system to take down even Star Control games they had no involvement with, we are forced to act to prevent them from continuing to create confusion.   

Consider some of your favorite games or movies. Now imagine if someone instrumental to the development of that game or movie went on to claim to be making a sequel to that game or movie without the consent of the owners of that trademark? What would be the result?

Q: But doesn't Paul and Fred own all the in-game IP?

A: Paul and Fred own whatever IP they created.  What that is remains to be seen. Stardock does not claim to own any copyrighted material within Star Control II which is why the new Star Control: Origins is set in its own universe with its own characters and story.

However, as of April 2018, neither Paul or Fred had any rights to any of the art and much of the writing in Star Control II. However, even if they did, it would be irrelevant as Stardock isn't using any copyrighted material from Star Control 1, 2, or 3 in the new Star Control games.

On the trademark side, simply because you were contracted to work on a game does not grant you the right to make a new game and claim it is related regardless of what copyrights you think you may own (otherwise, you could argue that Unity and Epic could start to make sequels to other people's games).

For example, Paul Reiche is the President of an Activision studio.  Blizzard is another Activision studio.  Stardock was once contracted to develop a StarCraft expansion (StarCraft: Retribution). One can imagine the response Stardock would receive it it were to announce a new game as a "direct sequel" to StarCraft: Retribution.

By contrast, not only did Paul and Fred announce their new game as a "direct" and later "true" sequel to Star Control, they even used the Star Control II box, that was acquired by Stardock, to promote it.

As much as we respect Paul and Fred, the fact is, Paul Reiche was contracted as an independent contractor (not as a company) by Accolade to develop Star Control for Accolade.  This is a fairly routine method that developers get products made (Stardock's own Fences, WindowBlinds, Groupy, IconPackager, etc. were developed using the same method).

Q: Do these legal issues have any impact on Star Control: Origins?

A: UPDATE:

Apparently yes.  Despite Star Control: Origins having nothing to do with Reiche and Ford's games, they have filed DMCA take down notices to Steam and GOG to take down Star Control: Origins.  They claim (with not specificity) that they own copyrights in Star Control: Origins

Game sites don't make legal judgments on the merits.  They simply remove the content.  No one, to our knowledge, has ever tried to do this on a shipping game before.  

You can read our response here.

 

Q: Why did Stardock trademark Ur-Quan Masters, Super Melee, and other names from the original games? 

A: Once Paul and Fred began to challenge the validity of our intellectual property we were forced to take steps to solidify our common law rights. Specifically, Paul and Fred have worked to try to separate Stardock's Star Control mark from its association with the classic games.  

The reason companies were bidding to acquire the Star Control trademarks and willing to pay $300,000 for it was for the association with the classic series.  The trademarks, being in active use in connection with the beloved classic series, made it valuable.  

When Paul and Fred began to seek to cancel the Star Control mark and make public statements that Star Control: Origins isn't related to the classic series Stardock felt obligated to respond by reinforcing its intellectual property rights to the classic series.  

As background: Stardock always had the common law trademark to Ur-Quan Masters. It's the sub-title to Star Control II after all and was, by Paul and Fred's admission, available in commerce on GOG even before Stardock was involved. Super-Melee is literally a promoted feature from Star Control. The alien names are so strongly associated with Star Control that if you Google Star Control aliens they come up as the first entry.  

They have made it very clear that they believe that they have the right to associate their new game with Star Control on the basis that they have previously licensed content to Star Control games. They have no such right.

Q: Why did Stardock really need to trademark the Star Control 2 alien names?

A: Star Control fans expect new Star Control games to have the Spathi, Ur-Quan, Orz, etc.   We originally chose not to include them in Star Control: Origins in deference to Paul and Fred who asked us not to.  

However, in December 2017, Paul and Fred posted:

This creates confusion because Stardock alone owns the Star Control universe. That doesn’t mean it owns any lore or stories created by others. It just means that Stardock has the right to determine what is canon in the Star Control universe.  

The Star Control aliens are associated with Star Control. That doesn’t mean Stardock can use expressions and stories of those aliens without permission. But it does mean Stardock has the right to create its own stories and expressions for the Ur-Quan, Spathi, etc.

When Paul and Fred were contracted to develop Star Control I and Star Control II for Accolade, they were allowed to keep certain copyrights to the works they created. But all trademarks were explicitly defined as being owned by Accolade. 

Incidentally, their name was put into a diagram because they literally announced their game as a sequel to Star Control II.  They associated their new game with Star Control, not the other way around.

Q: Is Stardock trying to prevent Paul and Fred from making new games in their universe?

A: No.  Stardock wants them to create new games in the universe they created.  However, this needs to be handled in such a way that there is no confusion as to the relationship between Star Control and the works they licensed for Star Control II.

Q: If Stardock wants a new game from Paul and Fred, why did the settlement offer that Paul and Fred publicly posted that they claim came from Stardock demand that they "surrender" their IP?

A: It is regrettable that Paul and Fred chose to violate confidentiality and post, without context, a settlement offer.  Paul and Fred have been offered many settlement proposals with many different terms and are intended for negotiation by both parties to try to reach an amicable settlement.

Stardock paid over $300,000 for the Star acontrol IP which included the trademark and copyright to Star a Control 3. The Star Control brand is, in our view, far more valuable than any copyrighted material within a 25 year old DOS game. Source code and alien art. Nothing else, as far as we can discern, falls under copyright protection. You can’t copyright “lore” or timelines, or alien names, or game designs or UI.  

Thus, all we would gain would be the ability to have Ur-Quan that look just like the old Ur-Quan and space ships that look like the classic space ships. The greater value would be to make sure this kind of dispute didn’t happen again. But that value would still not overcome the damage they’ve caused in the market place due to the confusion on who owns Star Control and the ill will due to their PR company issuing false and misleading press releases and publicizing the dispute in a way to maximize ill will. Not to mention the considerable and rising legal costs.

None of this would prevent Paul and Fred from making a new game if that really is their desire. Stardock, in turn, would have been happy to license, free of charge, any IP they needed to make their new game.

Our respect for the work Paul and Fred did 25 years ago remains undiminished.  However, that respect does not give them the right to disrupt our product development at the 11th hour or misrepresent their new endeavors as the "true" sequel to our products.

Our dedication to bringing you a new Star Control game remains unchanged.  BETA 2 of Star Control: Origins is due in a few weeks.

For those interested in reading the details, our complete initial filing available online:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4385277-Stardock-Legal-Complaint-2635-000-P-2017-12-08-1.html

Stardock 25th anniversary post documenting the creation of Star Control:

https://www.stardock.com/games/article/485810/star-control-ii-25th-anniversary---on-the-shoulders-of-giants  

 


Thank you for being fans of Star Control, and supporting our effort to make a great new game in the Star Control franchise.

And if you have questions that you’d like to see added to this post, feel free to reach out to me directly via Twitter at @kevinunangst

Kevin Unangst

Vice President, Marketing and Strategic Partnerships

Stardock Entertainment

1,790,118 views 728 replies
Reply #201 Top

When I first heard about this project I was excited, though somewhat tempered by Stardock's decision to not include any assets from SC1 or 2. When I heard F&P wanted to a do a direct sequel to SC2, I was elated. Here, after 25 years, we were going to get not one, but two StarCon games, both a soft reboot of sorts and a follow-up to SC2. I did find it suspicious that they announce their game after Stardock beings work on its on SC game, but if that's what it took for them to finally do a follow-up, then so be it.

Then I kind of stopped paying attention for awhile (life stuff and all that) only to come across this today, with the release of the latest Origins trailer. To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement, though most of that disappointment is directed to F&P. It seems like Stardock did everything it could to be supportive, generous, and operate in good faith, while F&P have shown a significant lack of professionalism.

I would have thought the existence of StarCon 3 would be the end of any IP arguments, since that was made using the brand and assets form the first two games without their input whatsoever, and them getting an opportunity to even do a sequel to SC2 after 25 years was pretty generous.

Hopefully this will all be settled at some point so both games can co-exist peacefully (who woudn't want more StarCon after all this time???), but right now it's not encouraging.

 

Reply #202 Top

Quoting amateurspaceman, reply 201

I did find it suspicious that they announce their game after Stardock begins work on its on SC game, .....

....... To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement, though most of that disappointment is directed to F&P. It seems like Stardock did everything it could to be supportive, generous, and operate in good faith, while F&P have shown a significant lack of professionalism.

This...;)

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Reply #203 Top

Agreed. ^ 

Reply #204 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 200

The only sig I've ever had/used was an old BIOS error code that was simply idiotic....

"Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue."

LOL I've gotten this error message a few times long ago in the past and always thought the same thing. "I would hit F1 if you would detect my keyboard jerk".

Reply #205 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 200


The only sig I've ever had/used was an old BIOS error code that was simply idiotic....

"Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue."
 
One of the most memorable sig lines I've seen was an engineer in a sci-fi forum.  Apparently Pentium processors had trouble with division, I know this because...
 
"I am Pentium of Borg.  Division is futile, you will be approximated."
 
Reply #206 Top

One thing that someone brought to my attention:

The sheer arrogance to suggest that Galactic Civilizations "borrowed heavily" from Star Control II.  The two games are nothing alike.  For guys who made a stink about the accurate statement that they did not create the Star Control trademark (Accolade did) they sure have no problem trying to take credit for other people's work imo.

Reply #207 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 206

One thing that someone brought to my attention:

The sheer arrogance to suggest that Galactic Civilizations "borrowed heavily" from Star Control II.  The two games are nothing alike.  For guys who made a stink about the accurate statement that they did not create the Star Control trademark (Accolade did) they sure have no problem trying to take credit for other people's work imo.

Yes, I will attest to Gal Civ being it's own unique creation. I played GalCiv 1 and 2, they definitely did not play (IMO) like anything else in the genre (for better or worse depending on your preferences in 4X space games). Being inspired by other ideas does not equal "borrowing" from other games. If game developers didn't take inspiration from other game designs and sometimes take that inspiration to make something amazing, we'd all be really bored as gamers! I wish we could get the SotS guys to make a sequel though. I guess they got bored of that genre and wanted to focus on something new? Might be wrong, but I thought they are working on some kind of F2P/gacha type game. Ok I've strayed....back to your usual scheduled programming.

Reply #208 Top

Lol, they call it "borrowed heavily" and then provide the quote they got that from where you said the precursors were inspired from SC2. Inspired is borrowing heavily, FFS. Nor is the concept of an ancient race of superior technological people who aren't around anymore remotely original in SC2. What a bunch of nonsense.

I can't believe I used to idolise those jerks. Screw P&F.

Reply #209 Top

Quoting bleybourne, reply 208

Lol, they call it "borrowed heavily" and then provide the quote they got that from where you said the precursors were inspired from SC2. Inspired is borrowing heavily, FFS. Nor is the concept of an ancient race of superior technological people who aren't around anymore remotely original in SC2. What a bunch of nonsense.

I can't believe I used to idolise those jerks. Screw P&F.

My thoughts exactly.  The concept of ancient first-ones or whatever isn't new.   I simply preferred the SC2 variation of them.  But Galactic Civilizations is a turn-based strategy game.  There are no races or ships or gameplay elements or anything that one could argue were even inspired by Star Control.

 

Reply #210 Top

The concept of "Precursors" is in almost every sci-fi story that attempts to tell a story on a "galactic scale".  It always emerges to any story writer as a means of conveying that the galaxy is a lot older than the current "stellar nations" and species that occupy it.  The desire to convey this is where this concept comes from, and why it appears in nearly all "galactic scale" stories.  SFB calls them "The Old Kings", in Stargate it is "The Ancients".  My own universe has a similar thing.  They all do.

All Brad was saying, from what I read, is that Star Control II had inspired him to include a similar thing in his universe.  But if it hadn't been SCII, just more time working on it would have led him to create his own version of the concept just as it does with everyone else.  Anyone writing such a story eventually realizes "someone had to have come before all of this", and adds a hint of that too their story.  Had he not been inspired by SCIIs precursors early in the process, he would have arrived at it on his own later in the process... just like just about everyone else who writes a story like this does.

There is absolutely nothing unique or original about the Precursors of SCII, in fact it is a thing that just about anyone who writes such a story eventually arrives at on their own.

Reply #211 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 206

One thing that someone brought to my attention:



The sheer arrogance to suggest that Galactic Civilizations "borrowed heavily" from Star Control II.  The two games are nothing alike.  For guys who made a stink about the accurate statement that they did not create the Star Control trademark (Accolade did) they sure have no problem trying to take credit for other people's work imo.

Right, but below that is apparently a block quote from yourself? Is that not accurate? I think they're talking about the borrowing of Precursors? I never played GalCiv, so I have no idea. Not sure where that quote is from either.

Reply #212 Top

For information on the precursor civilizations from GalCiv, the Arnor and the Dread Lords, I suggest reading this and this.

Reply #213 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 211

Right, but below that is apparently a block quote from yourself? Is that not accurate? I think they're talking about the borrowing of Precursors? I never played GalCiv, so I have no idea. Not sure where that quote is from either.

Galactic Civilizations is a 4X strategy game in the same vein as Master of Orion or Civilization.  Like pretty much all these games, there are various "goodie huts" around the map for players to collect early game bonuses.  The sci-fi story rationale for those goodie huts is that there was a precusor race who left artifacts around.  

The argument that this constitutes "borrows heavily" says a lot more about the person making that claim that the target of the claim.

Reply #215 Top

Quoting chapel976, reply 214

sounds like it's not game design they're suggesting was borrowed, but story elements.

Even that’s a big stretch. As others pointed out, the idea of “ancients” is not new.

Moreover, the Arnor are a fully developed and unique manifestation of the concept, far more tha. Anything in the Star Control games. There’s even a published book with an Arnor in it (Destiny’s Embers).

Reply #216 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 206

One thing that someone brought to my attention:

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The sheer arrogance to suggest that Galactic Civilizations "borrowed heavily" from Star Control II.  The two games are nothing alike.  For guys who made a stink about the accurate statement that they did not create the Star Control trademark (Accolade did) they sure have no problem trying to take credit for other people's work imo.



Why the double standard, here?

Stardock's own filing says, quote: "50. Upon information and belief, and contrary to the common public understanding and what they have portrayed to the public, Reiche and Ford may not have created any of the artwork, animation or characters incorporated in the games, or otherwise substantially contributed to the authorship of Star Control I and Star Control II"

Is there some reason that putting the adjective "heavily" in front of your own admission of "borrowing" would be significantly more insulting than suggesting that they had nothing to do with creating Star Control 1 & 2?

It seems to me that legal filings are going to be full of these little "gems" from both sides, and no one benefits from slinging mud like this.

Reply #217 Top

It’s not about insulting or not. It is the ridiculous nature of suggesting Galactic Civilizations borrowed heavily from Star Control. No one who plays GalCiv is going to think Star Control.  They have almost nothing in common.

Reply #218 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 217

It’s not about insulting or not. It is the ridiculous nature of suggesting Galactic Civilizations borrowed heavily from Star Control. No one who plays GalCiv is going to think Star Control.  They have almost nothing in common.

It's pretty ridiculous to claim that Paul and Fred aren't the creators of Star Control, despite referring to themselves that way for two decades without objection, and having their names on the box, and credited in the manual of Star Control 3. Heck the second line of Paul's wiki bio is "Reiche is best known for being the co-creator, together with Fred Ford, of the Star Control universe." And no, that's not a recent edit - the first version, from 2004, says "Together with Fred Ford the creator of the Star Control Universe."

And yet, here we are. Legal complaints tend to produce ridiculous-sounding statements from both sides.

Reply #219 Top

Just look at the quotes carefully and what they state to be the creators of - Star Control Universe. That is lore centric and is different from the definition of creating the Star Control Game.

Reply #220 Top

Quoting Inferno83, reply 219

Just look at the quotes carefully and what they state to be the creators of - Star Control Universe. That is lore centric and is different from the definition of creating the Star Control Game.

From wikipedia: "When the original creators released the source code of the 3DO version as open source under the GPL in 2002, an open-source project was created aiming to create an embellished remake called The Ur-Quan Masters."

Or from their Petition to make a new game, which was aimed directly at the then-trademark-holder: "A while ago, Toys for Bob, the creators of Star Control 1 and 2 (but not 3), made it known that they were in talks with the Powers That Be at Activision about what their next game should be. "

Or the 2013 UQM Wiki entry: "Toys For Bob itself holds the rights to the Star Control games it created"

Or just google "who created star control" and watch as Google populates an infobox showing it was F&P.

They have been treated as the creators of the game for decades, now. Accolade is listed as the publisher, and nothing else. I can't find a single reference to them as the "creator" of the series.

Quoting Stardock's,

50. Upon information and belief, and contrary to the common public understanding and what they have portrayed to the public, Reiche and Ford may not have created any of the artwork, animation or characters incorporated in the games, or otherwise substantially contributed to the authorship of Star Control I and Star Control II


That seems pretty ridiculous given the decades of history to the contrary, but again, legal filings tend to involve ridiculous claims.

Reply #221 Top

Making a claim doesn’t make it a fact. 

The lawyers were referring to the creation of the Star Control product. That was Accolade, the guys with the big logo on the front of the box.  They weren’t commenting on the creation of the content that made up the product because the specific authorship was unknown.

Paul and Fred do make a lot of claims that people, like me, took to be true. The fact they now claim that Galactic Civilizations borrowed heavily from Star Control should give you pause. 

Reply #222 Top

Quoting GMOrz, reply 220

They have been treated as the creators of the game for decades, now.

If you repeat anything long enough/often enough it can become lore....

...but it doesn't become law ...;)

Reply #223 Top

There was a man who claimed for decades to the Emperor of the United States out in San Fransisco.  They even printed money for him.  That doesn't mean he was, in fact, Emperor of the United States.

Reply #224 Top

Quoting SWVRoma, reply 223

There was a man who claimed for decades to the Emperor of the United States out in San Fransisco.  They even printed money for him.  That doesn't mean he was, in fact, Emperor of the United States.

To be fair, he was only slightly more crazy than the current Emperor. So I can see why people would find his claim believable.

 

I agree the legalese of the "creator" debate is nonsensical compared against the common vernacular. But it's also fair P&F have been making equally ridiculous claims about Star Dock legalise and otherwise... With the notable thing in my eyes being the fact that they have been making way more of them. Throw everything at the wall, see what mud sticks. :-/

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Reply #225 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 163

2. Because THIS was their response:

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This was in November.  They absolutely knew we would eventually have to seek legal action.  But if you look at their public posts, they act as if they're shocked, shocked that this would happen.

Where does this quote come from?