Elestan wasn't banned for having a different opinion.  There's a certain threshold of obnoxiousness we'll put up with on our own forums.

Ok. I'll bite.

First, you really don't seem to grasp the legal situation.  Stardock acquired the Star Control IP in 2013.  That includes everything except for the music of Star Control II (which we've subsequently licensed and/or acquired), the source code for Star Control I/II and the alien and ship art for Star Control I and II.   

If you believe there is a wealth of copyrightable material Star Control II beyond the source code, you are mistaken.  It's some dialog trees and image files.  It was a DOS game, not Lord of the Rings.

Second, as the timeline makes it clear, Paul and Fred, not Stardock instigated the dispute when they decided, after 25 years, to suddenly show up five days before our beta posting to announce that they were making the true sequel to Star Control II complete with our logos, box and trademarks.  They had produced no art of their own, no logo, not even a website.  It was pretty obvious way to step on the Star Control: Origins announcement.

They then followed this up by aggressively promoting it to the game sites as the sequel to Star Control II (often not mentioning the name of their game) and even promoted it as Star Control: Ghosts of the Precursors.  They were very aggressively trying to connect their game to Star Control.  If they wanted to do that, they should have done what we did and spend the money to acquire the trademark.  

Third, when we asked them to not use our trademarks in the future to promote their game, they refused.  Simultaneously, they were making bigger and bigger claims on what they believed (wrongly) to own.  

As it turned out, Paul didn't actually own any copyright able material that we can tell.  Fred allegedly owns the DOS source code (which he lost).  The artists were contracted and paid for by Accolade and had no formal arrangement with Paul and thus they continued to own the art just like the composers continued to own the music. 

Paul not owning any of the relevant copyrights doesn't mean that Accolade owned them either.  But it is pretty bold to be issuing DMCAs when your copyright claims are that that tenuous. That was the last straw for us.

Fourth, rather than simply agree to cease using Stardock's IP, Paul and Fred filed a counter-suit trying to cancel our trademarks and making a series of ridiculous claims on what they believe they own.

These are their words:

• Star Control: Origins refers to the Precursors as an ancient, advanced alien species that explored the universe long ago but then vanished, which are characters referenced in Reiche and Ford’s Star Control Games and an important part of the plot of the game. [104]
• Players of Star Control: Origins will travel to and explore new star systems and planets and encounter various alien species via hyperspace travel, just like in Reiche and Ford’s Star Control Games. [105]
• Players of Star Control: Origins will search for Tzo Crystal and earn or collect resource units to exchange for things, just like in Reiche and Ford’s Star Control Games. [106]

They think these ideas/concepts/whatever are theirs.

Now, in August, Paul and Fred not only submitted DMCA take-down notices against Riku's music (Arilou and Melnorme music) but they also sent a DMCA take-down notice of the Fleet Battles.  Feel free to tell me what IP of theirs is in Fleet Battles. Go ahead and justify that.   

We aren't the ones trying to "seize" anyone's IP.  Stardock acquired the Star Control IP.  We only began to integrate the species names into the Origins universe lore due to Paul and Fred trying to cancel our Star Control trademark and thus making it crystal clear that their intent was to sever Star Control: Origins connection to the classic series.  

If we have to include the names of the classic alien species into new Star Control games in order to make clear that Star Control: Origins is related to the classic games, we will.  I am not thrilled about that but we aren't the ones who created the confusion.

The fact that Paul and Fred threatened to DMCA Star Control: Origins itself, and was only prevented from doing so by the courts, has significantly altered our thinking.   On the one hand, we are willing to "let the courts decide" and have made sure that Star Control: Origins can stand the most rigorous scrutiny. But on the other hand, it greatly reduces the chances that we will ever permit Paul and Fred to work on any games that have any connection to Star Control again. 

We cannot co-exist with someone who would try to destroy years worth of actual work (we've spent more time actually working on Star Control at this point than they did), put our employees jobs in jeopardy and try to bypass the legal process.  

The fans have waited 25 years for a new Star Control game.  Paul and Fred had innumerable opportunities to acquire Star Control over the years including a direct offer from me.  They declined.    Now the Star Control franchise will be rebooted.  And thankfully, it's a very, very good game.

I bet there’s a helluva lot more fans who want a new Star Control than there are people who know or who care who programmed one of the versions decades ago. I vaguely remember some of the aliens and the slave shield thing. What I remember the most is exploring and meeting interesting characters.

I'll take a game that's basically what we're getting: something that keeps the spirit of Star Control 2.

Sure, I would have liked a proper sequel to SC2 that pretends SC3 never happened, but what I've seen so far is gonna make me happy.

I remember when that revamp of Master of Orion came out...it might've been okay if it hadn't been for one weapons-grade deal-breaker: travel was only possible along star-lanes instead of free travel from star to star as long as the fuel held out. Much like Star Control, MoO2 was way better than the original, and that should have been their model, as SC2 seems to have been the model on which SCO has been built.

And, unlike the MoO-remake, SCO has not yet come with any deal-breakers. There are one or two things I wish weren't so, but nothing that has made me go, "Oh, to Hades with that!" Not even the cumulative effect of the few things I would have done differently equals that level of Not Okay™.

So, yeah...much as I've been a die-hard SC2 fan since it first came out and would have preferred that sequel version, I will definitely take what we seem to be getting, and I'll probably be happy with it. Quite happy.

Hear hear. I've had my fill with the No True Scotmans thinking they represent more than a trivial number of fans. I've seen nothing but entitlement and venom from that crowd.

Other than Elemental, which StarDock made good on, they've done right by me. I can't think of any other gameco I'd rather see bring Star Control back and from what I've seen it looks like they've done it justice.

I vote for SCO...if Paul and Fred had a product that was weeks away from coming out, I would support their effort.  But getting all riled up when in less than a week SCO will be out, is so counterproductive and very bad form.

If Paul and Fred could look at this from the gamer's point of view whom have been waiting decades for SCO to come out, and now Paul and Fred want to kill the effort, they should care for their fans more than this.  

If it really becomes a legal battle. and Paul and Fred get say Star Control 1 and 2, I don't see how Star Control 3 could be anything but outright Stardock's property.  I mean to Paul and Fred, Star Control 3 was the bastard child they never wanted at all and is solely Accolades.  And what was Accolade's is Stardock's.  Star Control 3 had original alien races like the Arilou and Chmmr.  Stardock should be able to write to their heart's content about what is in Star Control 3.  Now, I don't want them to break up the Star Control series.  I think it should be Stardock's as it was Atari's, as it was Accolade's.

I have the feeling that if Paul and Fred get the first two Star Controls as their own, all that content is going to waste because it won't come out.  Even if it was a fact that Ghosts of the Precursors were to begin now...it took Stardock 5 years to make SCO.  Who here really believes that Ghost of the Precursors has more than just the very beginning of the project?

You know, if both had projects that would come out in a week, I would be buying both.

From what I heard, Stardock supported the idea of Ghosts of Precursors (which is a good title by the way), and from what I heard their eyes were too big for their stomachs.  I vote for SCO also because they were reasonable.  

I'll get off my soap box now, and look forward to SCO in a week.

Paul & Fred have taken no action that would threaten SC:O. The worst case from their legal action is that Stardock can't sell games they had nothing to do with making (Star Control 1+2).

Conversely, Brad has been quite clear that if he wins, he'll hold veto power over Ghosts and any use of the classic races, on top of collecting millions in damages.

The problem is, it was never Atari's or Accolade's, and those companies openly acknowledged this. Accolade licensed the classic races for Star Control 3, rather than do what Stardock is doing and simply use them without permission. Atari needed a license from Paul & Fred to sell the classic games on GOG, but Stardock failed to get a similar license when they tried to sell the games.

If Stardock was content to stick to the material it actually purchased, which amounts to the "Star Control" trademark, and the races new to Star Control 3, I wouldn't be here complaining.

I've quoted the Star Control 3 license text before, and I'm happy to quote it again: Effective February 1, 1995, Accolade and Reiche entered into Addendum No. 2 to the 1988 License Agreement, a copy of which is attached as Exhibit 3, to allow Accolade to develop and publish “Star Control III” without Reiche but using “characters, names, likenesses,  characteristics, and other intellectual property rights pertaining to Star Control I and Star Control  in which Reiche has an ownership interest” (hereinafter “Reiche’s Preexisting Characters”), in 2 exchange for the payment of an advance and royalties to Reiche.

So, clearly Stardock can't have acquired the material from Accolade, since Accolade didn't own it - they merely had a license to use it in Star Control 3.

This division of IP was well-discussed even in the 90s, so it can hardly have come as a surprise to Stardock to learn that they only purchased the singular "Star Control" trademark, and the original IP from Star Control 3 (not, as you keep claiming, rights to the licensed SC1+2 IP contained therein)

Fans were pointing out that the trademark might well be invalid as early as 2011, two years before you bought it. It's not Paul & Fred's fault if you were unaware of the risk when you made your purchase. Given you're currently using that trademark to sue them for millions of dollars, it seems entirely reasonable to me that they'd want to ensure the trademark is actually valid.

The problem is that they haven't actually taken any such action. They've even offered to review the builds to ensure there's not any issue prior to release. The only possible risk here is if Stardock insists on including the Reiche IP without a license. Even then, you've acquired an injunction that stops them from being a threat.

So, the only threat is hypothetical, has been pre-emptively neutralized, and only comes to pass if Stardock feels entitled to use something that isn't actually theirs.

I really can't see how you put the blame on Paul & Fred here. Especially when you're currently suing them for millions and seeking the right to veto (destroy) their game.

F&P think they own ship vs ship battles.  They think they own resource collecting and sale there of as a concept.  They think they own very obviously Star Trek inspired ship designs to the degree that no other ship can look remotely similar.  They think they own the concept of hyperspace travel, exploring space, and making contact with other races.

I played SC1 and SC2, PC and console, when they were released.  I played SC3.  I will play SCO.  And frankly?  F&P can go retire in obscurity.  I appreciate what they started, but they've made every excuse possible over the past quarter of a decade to NOT create a sequel.  They're simply setting Stardock up as the next big bad bully that won't let them make their hypothetical game, but here's a petition!  Send us your love letters!  We feed on your devotion!

I wouldn't trust them to review SCO for "offending materials".  They're delusional at best , they're evil and manipulative at worst.

This is the same thing that happened with Richard Garriot and Ultima 9.  It wasn't his officially and EA made him come out with an incomplete project.  In Garriot's case I support him and that should have been allowed to release a whole game.  But it wasn't Lord British's, and you are going to say that Lord British had less ownership of Ultima, than Paul and Fred had of Star Control.  EA won that one, but in this case and circumstance I side with Stardock.  They completed SCO and were a whole lot nicer than EA.  

And when we are talking Ultima...it was a whole lot more popular than Star Control, though I did enjoy Star Control myself, and though Star Control was popular too.

You say, Paul and Fred haven't done anything...except threaten taking a hand to SCO.  Threats are how it begins, and then actions must be taken.  So you can say to your heart's content that nothing has been done when you already have taken the first step cause Stardock to have a defense to it.  You may blithely say Paul and Fred haven't done anything when it has already caused effects.  

To your second point, what did Stardock purchase for 400,000$?  I don't think Stardock would enter such a deal where they had both hands tied behind their back and had to pay royalties.  If Paul and Fred had such ownership, why was Star Control 3 so condemned by them.  Doesn't sound to me like they owned and had the handle on Star Control 3 like you purport them to.

To your third point, you are mad that Paul and Fred had to file a counter-suit...when you were the one who threatened changes in the first place.  You threaten so much you forced the suit.  You have fingers of your own and you used and pointed them.

To your fourth point, you say they haven't taken action when that is precisely what you did.  You began the rift and forced their hand.  

SWVRoma

To the last reply of yours, you think that Ship vs Ship is such a revolutionary I idea that it would solely be thought of by Fred and Paul.  Mono y Mono is about the oldest idea in the book.  

Landing on planets IS different on SCO...you need to fly it manually to the surface and maneuver it.   Picking up resources on a playing field...StarCraft does that, lots of games do that.  Now back in 93 are you going to lay claim to all the games that had resource gathering later.  

I'm glad you like SCO.  All I wish is that this doesn't change SCO and Stardock too much making the game less impactful than it could be.

Cheers!

They seem to think it was and that they own the concepts.  

They also want to force Stardock to police fan-created content that resembles things from SC1/2, again to make Stardock the big bad.  

GMOrz, the ethical fluidity you display when trying to justify Paul and Fred’s threat to send bogus DMCA notices against Star Control:Origins is impressive. 

Except DMCA Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles I assume you meant to say.

I noticed you still haven’t explained or justified their DMCA of Star Control: Origins - Fleet Battles.  

The court documents already make clear what the consequences a DMCA notice against SCO would be so I won’t repeat them here other than to say it would be catastrophic.  

We shouldn’t have had to file for a prelimary injunction to prevent their abuse of the DMCA system in the first place.  

If Paul and Fred truly believe they have rights to our work, there is a mechanism for that called a court of law.

1) Attacking minor details doesn't really undermine any of their core points

2) You're completely misunderstanding those. They're not claiming they own any of that. They're saying it's part of a "a pattern of minor infringements." There's a spectrum between a fair-use supported cameo, and a pixel-for-pixel copy, and these are all minor details that show that Stardock is more on the "infringing" side than the "cameo" side.

You can read the license agreements for yourself if you don't believe me. They are not your standard license, because Paul & Fred were willing to take a pay cut if it meant owning the setting, aliens, and characters they'd created. I am not aware of any contract giving Lord British those rights.

And now Stardock has an injunction preventing that, so why does the legal battle continue? The "threat" has been resolved.

Well, according to the bill of sale, they bought the "Star Control trademark (singular, not plural as Brad likes to represent it), and the new IP from Star Control 3 (i.e. the K'tang and the Dak-Tak-Lak-Pak, not the Orz or Pkunk).

Of course, fans were questioning the validity of that trademark for years before the sale, but presumably Stardock did it's research and was aware of that issue...

Stardock illegally tried to sell their games, despite even Accolade (y'know, the people Stardock bought the trademark from?) agreeing with Paul & Fred that this requires a license.

Stardock refused to stop selling the games.

What action are you expecting Paul & Fred to take here?

And what ever happened to the concept of "proportional" responses? Paul & Fred's DMCA is a few thousands in damages. Stardock is asking for millions. That's like beating someone up and then claiming it's their fault for tapping you on the shoulder.

My ethics have been constant throughout.

Conversely, back in 2015 you insisted "We’ve made sure to post this publicly repeatedly so that there is a written public record that Stardock has zero rights to the classic Star Control 2 lore (aliens, ships, story, etc.)." Now you're claiming that not only will those races show up in Origins, but that Paul & Fred will actually need your permission to use them.

Not being privy to the confidential contents of an unreleased game does, sadly, mean I cannot comment in depth on that one particular example. If you'd like to give me a free pass to the game, I'd be happy to review it and respond back.

I can say it clearly wasn't a significant threat. It was a single court filing, they gave you ample time to respond to it, and you've already resolved the issue.

If I could say the same about your lawsuit against them, I'd be a happy Stardock / Origins customer.

I'm not sure why you find my point so confusing, but I'll repeat it again:

Explain to me why Accolade had to pay to use the aliens in Star Control 3, but now you expect Paul & Fred to pay you to license them for Ghosts?

If you truly believe you have rights to their work, there's a mechanism for that called a court of law.

I think everybody in this conversation needs to stop holding back and tell us how they really feel.

There’s only so much intellectual dishonesty I’m willing to read before I tune someone out.

GMOrz, you are either choosing to be ignorant of the dispute and it’s elements or you are choosing to misrepresent the facts of the dispute.  In either case, I’d advise you to move on.

This is actually sound advice (except for people with a stake in this, better to let lawyers deal with it).

And honestly, I've read both sides of the argument. Not being a legal expert, I can't tell with 100% certanity who's right but as a layman it seems to me that Stardock is in the right. Heck, the guys bought Star Control stuff (IP, trademark, whatever) for hundreads of thousands. Now they want to make that investment reality.

Meanwhile the two guys who had a hand in the old SC games have had FRIGGIN TWENTY+ YEARS to make a sequel. Didn't happen. I say this is on them. To me all this seems just petty sabotage. Those two guys had all the opportunities and they knew there was a fan base. Ghosts would've been a big hit by name alone some 10-15 years ago when SC2 wasn't so ancient. Now we have a whole new generation of people and most don't even know about the old games, except the diehard old fans but we're a minority I'm pretty sure.

Seriously, I hope really, really hard that whatever lawsuits are tossed around, Stardock wins them all and buries that duo for good. They abandoned the fans and now try to manipulate us by acting like the victim. No more. SCO, my body is ready!

/rant

...really? Cuz I was bein' a brat.   

Ha! I just needed to vent a little bit, that's all. To me it's infuriating that the (I shall not use their names) Duo abandoned the fanbase while telling us sugarcoated lies about how they would "love to" make a sequel "but reasons" for years and years.

And now? After decades and someone else standing up to the task and delivering us a new (hopefully) great gaming experience in our loved SC universe, NOW these guys begin a "passion project". Funny how those "reasons" all of a sudden vanished. Heck, I'm 100% sure that game will never even see the light of the day. Or maybe they'll vomit out some half-baked junk by 2035.

I'm almost literally sick by their behavior. Thus, the rant. I just don't feel the need to wrap my opinion in extreme politeness (but please say if I go overboard!) or play an internet lawyer. Professionals will deal with the technicalities. I'm just a guy who loved the old games and am happy to see the franchise make a comeback.

The Duo is only hurting us with their scheming. They're hurting both the new dev and the fan base by possibly robbing us some elements of the originals. Disgusting.

...Wow, looks like my rant goes still on!

Alverez is a salty sue~ 

I've been following this legal battle for a while, and it's giving me a headache!

Being a game developer, I do understand how Paul and Fred feel about what they created with Star Control 2. That being said, I don't understand their actions over the last 15-20 years. If it was indeed their intent to someday release a sequel then (1) Why did they release the source code for SC 2 to the public back in 2002, when they should have been making the sequel? (2) Why did the not acquire the rights when they had the chance? (3) Why did they wait so long to decide to make a sequel? 

I remember when I heard about the source code being released. I remember thinking to myself, I guess they will NEVER come out will a sequel. If it were my code, and I was planning on releasing a sequel, I would never have released the source code. That's pretty much like telling the fans... WERE DONE!  Here's the code....see what you can do with it.

I have read some of their allegations regarding the use of melee battles, planet exploration and hyperspace travel being their idea. But was it really? I think we all remember Starflight. Did you know the Paul actually did some consulting work on that project? I wonder how may SC 2 ideas he got from his work there? That game had hyperspace travel, a melee combat and planetary exploration. But I don't recall EA getting all worked up when SC2 came out. 

I've also been a founder for several years and have seen the work Stardock has done, and I'm very pleased. My gut tells me that with all the editor tools they are giving the fans, this will be the best Star Control game yet. These editors helped address the one flaw with SC2. That flaw was that once you won the game, it went back on your shelf for a year or so before you would play it again. You had to have time to forget stuff. The editor will allow the community to create an unlimited amount of content, which in turn will allow players to play many games created by other fans. I think this has scared both Fred and Paul a bit, knowing that SCO is not just a 'play once game and come back to it later' type of a game. This no doubt has but a wrench in their idea of making their own SC game. Thinking that the players would be tired of the story line and then move on to their game. 

Honestly, while I am looking forward to playing the initial story line on Thursday, I am more excited about playing the content developed by other players. I may even make my own multiverse at some point. Kudos to Stardock for making a worthy SC sequel for all of those fans who have been waiting decades!

Actually P&F were very obviously SFB players.  SCII was a player created SFU campaign made as an arcade game.  I've said enough about this already here and elsewhere, but SFB players have always recognized SCII as an SFB inspired game.  This isn't a new issue too us, we liked it for the player created integrated SFU campaign that it was right from the beginning.

Quoting Ddudey, reply 695

Quoting BionicDance,

reply 694

...really? Cuz I was bein' a brat.   

Ha! I just needed to vent a little bit, that's all. To me it's infuriating that the (I shall not use their names) Duo abandoned the fanbase while telling us sugarcoated lies about how they would "love to" make a sequel "but reasons" for years and years.

And now? After decades and someone else standing up to the task and delivering us a new (hopefully) great gaming experience in our loved SC universe, NOW these guys begin a "passion project". Funny how those "reasons" all of a sudden vanished. Heck, I'm 100% sure that game will never even see the light of the day. Or maybe they'll vomit out some half-baked junk by 2035.

I'm almost literally sick by their behavior. Thus, the rant. I just don't feel the need to wrap my opinion in extreme politeness (but please say if I go overboard!) or play an internet lawyer. Professionals will deal with the technicalities. I'm just a guy who loved the old games and am happy to see the franchise make a comeback.

The Duo is only hurting us with their scheming. They're hurting both the new dev and the fan base by possibly robbing us some elements of the originals. Disgusting.

...Wow, looks like my rant goes still on!

Feel exactly the same as you 100%

Can I just start by giving a shoutout to @Frogboy for his patience in continuing to engage in this conversation. He's under no obligation to do so and I think it speaks both to his passion for the game and the fans that he's still here. (And lets be honest, it's pretty clear at this point that the number of people who actually care about the details of this dispute is so small that claiming this will have some major impact on sales is wishful thinking at best.)

Without having access to all of the legal documentation (which at present is only true for the involved parties and the courts), I think it's pretty hard to claim with absolute certainty to know who is the innocent victim here as external observers. Obviously, some people have picked their favourites but there's as much emotion as fact mixed into the arguments being presented by many.

For me personally, I feel there's so much similarity between Starflight and SC2 that to claim SC2 is not merely an evolution of an existing genre but a work of such unprecedented innovation that anything even remotely similar is clear plagiarism, is a little excessive. What made SC2 unique was its specific story and it's pretty clear that, to its credit, SC:O is taking its own direction there. From what we've seen, I feel like SC:O has added as much innovation on top of SC2 as SC2 had made on top of Starflight, so claims of plagiarism are a bit much. One obvious item of genuine dispute is the trademark on the name itself, and while I can't comment on where the ownership truly resides by the letter of the law at this moment, it's pretty clear that P&F were happy to give up ownership over that particular piece of the game at some point in the past.

My personal hope (and one that is probably overly optimistic) is that both parties would reach a point where they decide to actively work towards deëscalation. Obviously this would require admitting some mistakes were made along the way but at this point I'm not sure if a war of IP attrition really serves either party's ultimate aims, and certainly least of all the fan base.

But back to the present. I'm excited for this week's SC:O release because, lets's face it, I think most fans just want to get back into the captain's chair — it's been too long! Hopefully this is just the beginning and we will see lots more exciting stuff from both Stardock and P&F.