Ashes balance suggestions

from AshesoftheSingularity Forums

Callum recommended changes implemented:

  1. Hermes sight increased from 600 to 750
  2. Hermes Radar range increased from 1000 to 1200
  3. Archer Logistics cost increased from 1 to 2
  4. Medic Heal rate lowered to 66% of its current value
  5. Medic Logistics cost Increase from 1 to 3
  6. Martyr Shields increased from 60 to 105
  7. Martyr Logistics cost reduced from 4 to 2
  8. Capacitor Energy per second regeneration increased from 1 to 4
  9. Capacitor Shields reduced from 500 to 400
  10. Masochist Logistics cost increased from 2 to 5
  11. Athena Main gun damage reduced by 10%
  12. Athena Radioactives cost increased from 30 to 60
  13. Athena Secondary weapons damage halved
  14. Mauler Logistics cost increased from 4 to 7
  15. Mauler Radioactives cost lowered from 80 to 60
  16. Mauler Metal cost reduced from 380 to 350
  17. Mauler Armour Penetration removed
  18. Destructor Main weapon damage increased by 30%
  19. Caregiver Logistics cost reduced from 30 to 10
  20. Caregiver Heal rate increased by 400%
  21. Apollo Anti-Air damage increased by 33%
  22. Apollo Logistics cost increased from 3 to 5
  23. Overmind Metals cost increased from 2000 to 3000 (2400 after global reduction)
  24. Overmind Radioactives cost reduced from 5000 to 3000 (2400 after global reduction)
  25. Overmind Secondary weapon damage doubled
  26. Overmind Now spawns 5 Drone Swarms instead of 3.
  27. Retributor Primary weapon damage increased by 150%
  28. Retributor Primary weapon minimum range removed
  29. Retributor Secondary weapon damage Quadrupled
  30. Prometheus main weapon penetrates all armor
  31. Substrate Dominator requires Orbital Archive [REQUIRES AI UPDATE FOR THIS TO WORK]
  32. Substrate Punisher Requires Gateway [REQUIRES AI UPDATE FOR THIS TO WORK]
  33. Furies and Dominator now have 15% armour Penetration
  34. Hades Metal cost decreased from 270 to 250
  35. Hades Radioactives cost decreased from 330 to 300
  36. Strategic Bomber Armour lowered from 16 to 14 (80% damage reduction to 70%)
  37. Strategic Bomber Health increased from 4800 to 6600 (This is still a nerf because of armour)
  38. Strategic Bomber Logististics cost lowered from 100 to 80 (Same as Harbinger)
  39. PHC Pan (scout air) health increased
  40. Instigator Health tripled
  41. Instigator Metal cost lowered from 800 to 500
  42. Instigator Logistics cost lowered from 20 to 1
  43. Searcher Shields increased from 300 to 1400
  44. Air Marauder Damage increased by 50%
  45. Air Marauder Logistics cost increased from 4 to 15
  46. Rampager Damage increased by 50%
  47. Rampager Health and shields doubled
  48. Rampager Logistics cost reduced from 30 to 15
  49. Rampager Rainmaker range increased from 400 to 800 (to match other weapon)
  50. Advanced Sky Factory only requires Air Factory Now only requires Air Factory [REQUIRES AI UPDATE]
  51. Aviary Now only requires Assembly and Quantum Relay [REQUIRES AI UPDATE]
  52. Sensor post radius default increased from 1800 to 2500
  53. Sensor post Radioactives cost increased from 20 to 80
  54. Sensor post health reduced
  55. Listening post health reduced
  56. PHX Nexus armor reduced to 18 (90% damage mitigation)
  57. Smarties health and damage increased
  58. Barrager Armor reduced, weapon damage increased
  59. Artillery Post projecile speed greatly lowered
  60. Artillery Post accuracy reduced
  61. Artillery Post Range lowered from 3500 to 3000
  62. Artillery Post Damaged lowered from 300 to 250
  63. Drone Bay Metal cost increased from 240 to 350
  64. Repair Bay Metal cost increased from 140 to 300
  65. Annihilator Damage reduced by 33%
  66. Annihilator Metal cost increased from 180 to 200
  67. Heavy Annihlator Damage reduced by 33%
  68. HA Metal cost increased from 240 to 300
  69. Disruptor Health Reduced from 4000 to 3000
  70. Sky Ender Damage increased by 600%
  71. Sky Ender Now has 20% armour piercing
  72. Sky Ender Ranged increased from 1500 to 1800
  73. Sky Ender AOE reduced from 150 to 120
  74. Star Burst Damage reduced from 200 to 50
  75. Constable Health increased from 900 to 1200
  76. Falcon Flak Gun Health increased from 900 to 2700
  77. Falcon Flak Gun Armour increased to give 50% damage reduction
  78. Falcon Flak Gun Damage output increased to 240%
  79. Falcon Flak Gun Rate of fire increased to 133%
  80. Falcon Flak Gun Cost increased from 150/30 to 470/80
  81. Air Eliminator Armour reduced from 20 to 12 (95% to 60% damage reduction)
  82. Air Eliminator Health increased from 1500 to 4000
  83. Sentinel Health reduced from 4500 to 3500
  84. Oblivion Gun Armour reduced from 20 to 12 (95% to 60% damage reduction)
  85. Oblivion Gun Health increased from 3000 to 4000
  86. Substrate Pulverizer gun Shields reduced from 4000 to 2500
  87. Exterminator Turret Health reduced from 6000 to 3000
  88. Regenerator Tech requirements moved from Subspace Streamer to Energy Modular [REQUIRES AI CHANGE TO WORK]
  89. Call Engineer Quanta cost increased from 30 to 50
  90. EMP Quanta cost increased from 100 to 150
  91. EMP Shield damage reduced from 10000 to 2000

 

34,771 views 27 replies
Reply #1 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Discuss. :)

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I play ss mainly and the changes seem very appealing to me at least in attack , caregiver will become worth building , overmind becomes slightly more than a mobile shield generator and I like the reduced costs on rads too, sky ender is more potent, mauler I'm a.bit disappointed to losing the armor piercing but I see Athena gets more nerfs so that might be right , nerfs to ss defense could be warranted,  searcher shield buff is very welcome as it was extremely weak before

The strategic bomber changes don't seem a net nerf to me as overall 10 percent armour reduction and 50 percent increase to hp seems to superior ? Arnt those changes saying 10 percent more dps will be retained detracting from 50 more health ?

 

Are these changes in the 2.1 beta ?

Reply #4 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Looks great - should dramatically refresh the current somewhat stale meta in MP.

Reply #5 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Great to see all of my changes accepted! This will make the MP game so much more exciting to play. Looking forward to seeing the game improve and grow.

If anyone wants to see the intention and reasoning behind the changes, you can read the document here. it also has a much easier to read formatting.

Also, a couple of errors. There was a typo with the Instigator, logistics cost is 10 and not 1! Also, the Dominator Requires the Quantum Archive and not Orbital Archive.

Reply #6 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Those changes are definitely needed! Very nice!

I think Ashes needs upgradeable orbitals too. When you get in late game, your orbitals have nearly no effect at all. For example the Intensive Care orbital seems to heal a defined amount of health, which is less effective the more HP your units have. In this case the solution could even be to make Intensive Care regenerate %maxhealth per second instead of regenerating a fixed amount of health. So with that in mind either make the orbital's effects based on % or make them upgradeable, but that's just my suggestion.

Another point is the balancing of the Ascendency Wars - especially Imminent Crisis. I remember Stardock (don't know who) saying that the game is meant to evolve along the story. I find it strange that in some missions your enemies have much more units/buildings to rely on. For example i remember one mission where the enemies can build refineries and the player can't. That seems like some kind of "soft enrage" (as you would call it in MMORPG) and i don't know if that is meant to be so - especially to have such a "game mechanic" that early in the campaign. I mean... when you play againt the opposite race... ok, there it would be reasonable to have bigger differences in technology, but not when playing against the same race as you are.

Reply #7 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting Galaxio, reply 6

Those changes are definitely needed! Very nice!

I think Ashes needs upgradeable orbitals too. When you get in late game, your orbitals have nearly no effect at all. For example the Intensive Care orbital seems to heal a defined amount of health, which is less effective the more HP your units have. In this case the solution could even be to make Intensive Care regenerate %maxhealth per second instead of regenerating a fixed amount of health. So with that in mind either make the orbital's effects based on % or make them upgradeable, but that's just my suggestion.

Another point is the balancing of the Ascendency Wars - especially Imminent Crisis. I remember Stardock (don't know who) saying that the game is meant to evolve along the story. I find it strange that in some missions your enemies have much more units/buildings to rely on. For example i remember one mission where the enemies can build refineries and the player can't. That seems like some kind of "soft enrage" (as you would call it in MMORPG) and i don't know if that is meant to be so - especially to have such a "game mechanic" that early in the campaign. I mean... when you play againt the opposite race... ok, there it would be reasonable to have bigger differences in technology, but not when playing against the same race as you are.

i agree with this. scaling orbitals would be good. as well as including the new tech in the campaigns since the AI has access to it..

i like the changes as well. although I notice that the SS have even fewer options of dealing with armour now, since mauler lost its minor AP. any bit helped.

Reply #9 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I have a suggestion too: we need more more resilient AA, especially for the PHC, the Apollo is unarmored, and can die even one barrage from an enemy Punisher, while it takes 3 or 4 try for it to destroy only one bomber. And ok, the Constable is a cheap and fragile AA, but the Falcon and Air Eliminator have ridiculously low hp in contrast with their Substrate counterparts, and they are falling down rather quickly under a serious aerial assault despite being supported by a heap of repair bays...

Reply #10 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Call engineer 50 quanta is too much, almost on avatar level.

 

Also I have played some games lately and phc aa is underpowered compared to sub one. The problem is not single damage but lack of aoe dps. Trying to kill 4 strategic bombers requires 10× the investment in resources, in order to have a chance to survive.

 

So phc aa lacks aoe and is very expensive for what it does. 

Reply #11 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I haven't played the game for a while, and i don't really play MP games, because i don't have a lot of time.

I will support those changes if it will make the game more Balanced between the 2 sides

Each side need to have a good counter against the other

If Substrate have a great Bomber then make a great AA for the PHC, things like that.

Reply #12 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Poblem is that sub have two tier 3 aa with aoe vs only one tier 3 aa phc who lacks aoe and its mad expensive.

Reply #13 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

I agree with most of the changes, however, if SS air is going to be tech walled, PHC air should be tech walled as well. If the idea is to stop people from abusing early air rushes, it should go to both sides. But it also feels a little gimmicky as PHC was given constables that require no radio or factory to build off the get go, and they only take 30 seconds to place. In essence if PHC can have air at 1:30, so should SS or vice versa. As it stands now PHC can get air wicked early compared to SS, and you're saying "it's ok, ss has t1 aa(sky cleanser)" which is malarky. also moving punisher behind gateway? What the heck is that about? Seriously?

Furthermore the annihilator changes are too great. Across the board you've increased cost and reduced damage. That's a great way of saying "hey don't ever use this again". Try one change at a time or scale back the nerfs. This may go too far when considered in a full game.

Why are we removing the armor penetration on maulers? How does this effect their dps? Did anyone in the beta try 1 mauler vs 1 Athena? Who won? what if you took two armies of same logistics count and crashed them into each other? who won? what was the army comp? Is there a spread sheet of all the clashes to accumulate data to support balance changes? Also it's been a while since I looked, but the dps tool tips between mauler and athena are drastically different, take a look at that.

I main SS and have some faction bias which apparently makes me blind to proper balance, but how many times do I have to watch 3 maulers die to 1 athena with 5 medics healing it? Could we change the mechanics so a unit/building can only be healed by 1 medic/repair bay at a time? I've also seen on some tiny maps repair/drone bay creep. Player just builds these and creeps across the map, and it's effective because every building is withing range of at least 3 repair bays, you can destroy them, but it takes a lot of effort considering the low cost of these buildings, which you've increased, but if a player isn't building much of an army the increases in static defenses isn't much of a deterrent. I'm not saying it won't help, but it doesn't seem like much. 

Love the change of tech wall for regenerater. 

The AA changes seem solid, but why are we buffing constables if we're putting a pretty severe tech wall on SS air, this is again a double handicap for SS air vs PHC AA game. You've tech walled SS air so they can't get to them as soon or as many by X time, and buffed PHC AA. Why? I may be biased, but this feels like a lot of love for PHC players.

And even though I am biased, the starburst nerfs are warranted, that thing is crazy good atm. 

I would say the pulverizer and exterminator gun nerfs are a bit much, but with the change in regenerater, they should be fine.

When do these changes go live?

Reply #14 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting priestxes, reply 13

Why are we removing the armor penetration on maulers? How does this effect their dps? Did anyone in the beta try 1 mauler vs 1 Athena? 


"The Mauler has full armour Penetration which allows it to vaporise Dreadnaughts and the Hera far too quickly. This can not be intentional as it makes Eradicators obsolete."

For reference, the Athena has no armour or armour penetration, resulting in nothing changing in this interaction. In fact, not only is Athena getting a cost increase, it is getting its damage nerfed while mauler gets a cost decrease. The removal of Armour Pen is only going to equalise Athena and Mauler time to kill against Zeus, (Currently Mauler kills it faster) while preventing the Mauler from murdering Dreads and Hera, the role of the Eradicator.

Yes these changes have been tested. You can refer to this doc to read the reasoning behind all of the changes, such as Sub air locking. It's a shame Brad didn't include the explanations and formatting.

 

Reply #15 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting priestxes, reply 13
When do these changes go live?

yes i would also love to know when this is going to happen, as we know, these patches for balance could literally come out evert single week.. arty too strong, hang on let me change a number in a spread sheet.. 500kb patch inbound.. ah over nerf on the annihilator.. 500kb patch inbound..

on punisher vs hades.. broooooo!! u know urself PHC cant rush air! and u know how risky it is... also.. can a hades kite ANYTHING?? ive never ever seen a hades rush, but how easy is it to rush a punisher? and if the rush fails, u still have a fully functional factory.. unlike a failed hades rush (still laugh at the idea) u now have a air factory that isnt going to do much vs the prepared opponent who survived ur rush (yes i know its minor res differences, but they exist)

all in all im actually worried this patch is an over nerf on PHC.. already the 2 sides are quite balanced (even if there are UP or OP units) we need to see how the actually working caregiver now works in armies.. and thats double the rads on an athena!! double! almost double the price on those drone bays.. double!! imagine fighting half of what u have been fighting.. thats huge! and the medic is weaker.. and the arty is even worse at killing armies.. people are already complaining PHC is too weak, arty is useless etc imagine how they will feel when these take effect..

also those tech walls wont come out soon (i guess) due to the required AI update..

Reply #16 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

OK, I've read your document, some key things you missed. Stopping SS air as PHC leaves your ground game weak, even though you buffed smarties(which can shoot at both air and ground effectively making them a 2for). Tech walling SS air gives PHC players what sounds like a much needed reprieve to expand before having to defend against air. You mention it is like poker, luck of the draw since there is no scouting currently. But you fail to explain how you don't flip the table on the SS. SS still has to prepare for both a ground game and defend against the early air. You tell me this is ok because SS has t1 AA(sky cleanser), the sky cleanser is a crappy version of the constable that is mobile. If the constable is not enough for PHC, sky cleanser is not enough for SS. I understand you buffed both, but it is too much for one patch. 

Building a constable to prepare for an early SS air attack is a drain of metal that could be going to ground units instead, or so you say. The sky cleanser is equally a drain on resources that could be going to a ground game. Building blossom launchers so early is a drain that could be going to maulers/martyrs/reapers/drone hives instead. You have not addressed the core root of the issue. Scouting.

I see you've increased hermes sight range, trippled pan health, massive buff in shields for searcher(still slow, and no sight increase...) All steps in the right direction, however, I just watched you gameplay commentary on your youtube. The one posted on these boards. Not once did you scout with a scout unit, until the mid game. you also didn't build a lot of anti air. He however built plenty of anti-air. Why? Did he scout your air factory? Or did he just do it because it made sense to be prepared?

You think it is too easy for an SS to go early air without any sacrifice, and that if a PHC player did the same, it's huge because it's an investment they can't get out. Either they keep using the air factory or it's useless. This makes sense. I get this, but now PHC player can rush early air, and SS will never see it. so they have to prepare for it anyways, while PHC can go on knowing they are safe until the 3 minute mark. 

Yes it's like build order poker, but you've gimped one side and left the other open, and said "well it's a risk they have to take." Building a dominator first was risky as well, it generally meant delaying your blossom launchers and more importantly, your quantum archive(and all tech derived from such) which allows for t2 units(aside from drone hive) which sets your armies back quite a bit. 

 

Back to the mauler vs athena, I didn't realize athena had no armor, glad to see the medic changes are in the document, maybe they'll make it into the game at a later date. I see you looked at costs vs effectiveness and logi cost. Did you look at build time? why do maulers take 6 seconds longer? may not mean much in a 1 to 1 ratios, but over a 45 minute long game, that time adds up... And maybe all the bitching i've been doing is moot. Maybe the caregiver will change the balance of power, but I'm looking at the game as it is and right now PHC army with medics beats the pants off SS unless SS out numbers them or has better orbitals/upgrades/unit comp. Some of these changes will be welcomed, others not so much. 

Reply #17 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting Quesocito, reply 15


Quoting priestxes,
reply 13
When do these changes go live?



yes i would also love to know when this is going to happen, as we know, these patches for balance could literally come out evert single week.. arty too strong, hang on let me change a number in a spread sheet.. 500kb patch inbound.. ah over nerf on the annihilator.. 500kb patch inbound..

on punisher vs hades.. broooooo!! u know urself PHC cant rush air! and u know how risky it is... also.. can a hades kite ANYTHING?? ive never ever seen a hades rush, but how easy is it to rush a punisher? and if the rush fails, u still have a fully functional factory.. unlike a failed hades rush (still laugh at the idea) u now have a air factory that isnt going to do much vs the prepared opponent who survived ur rush (yes i know its minor res differences, but they exist)

all in all im actually worried this patch is an over nerf on PHC.. already the 2 sides are quite balanced (even if there are UP or OP units) we need to see how the actually working caregiver now works in armies.. and thats double the rads on an athena!! double! almost double the price on those drone bays.. double!! imagine fighting half of what u have been fighting.. thats huge! and the medic is weaker.. and the arty is even worse at killing armies.. people are already complaining PHC is too weak, arty is useless etc imagine how they will feel when these take effect..

also those tech walls wont come out soon (i guess) due to the required AI update..

 

I agree balance change iterations need to be closer, once a month feels to long for when things are obviously broken. 

 

PHC can rush an early fury to snipe extractors/constructors just fine. The Fury is after all comparable to a dominator per my conversation with GG on discord. We're not talking hades vs punisher, punisher is already tech walled behind quantem archive, now we're moving dominator to quantum archive and punisher to gateway, while fury/hades have no tech wall and the explanation given is, PHC can't stop early air effectively enough and if they decide to go early air against SS, well they give up ground expo so if SS survives PHC air, there will be less ground resistance. That's a pretty big "if"

If SS goes early dominator, they too will be behind on their tech and ground expo. But that isn't enough for PHC players to make up with their easier to obtain early t2(not in mass granted)?

But for the sake of argument, how quick can PHC get an athena if they rushed it off the bat? Not accounting for resources| :30 second for factory, :32 for amory :44 for athena. Total time 1:46 SS mauler time| :32 for assembly, 1:00 for qa, :50 for mauler 2:22 

so delaying the QA for mauler for an early dominator sets back everything. It's a risk.

now lets do it for fury vs dominator with new changes. Dominator| :32 for assembly, 1:00 for QA 1:00 dominator total time 2:32

for phc fury| :30 for air factory, 1:00 for fury, 1:30 total time. that's a 1 minute window of difference. doesn't seem like much, but it makes a world of difference. 

a one minute difference in the early game makes strategies/tactics/build orders busts or fails. And your defense of this is "lulz bro, punisher > hades" that's hardly the matter at hand. 

So what this effectively does is limit SS strats early game. All we have left to do is expand, PHC can go air or expand, meaning SS still has to worry about both. Building AA at every region is a given, but the timing is important, do it now or wait? for PHC, after the changes, they'll be able to wait longer. 

Reply #18 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting priestxes, reply 16

 Did you look at build time? why do maulers take 6 seconds longer? may not mean much in a 1 to 1 ratios.


Ah, no I never thought of build time, that's a good point! I believe Cruisers also build way too fast compared to Frigate units of equal cost. Build times start to get iffy, because should Substrate have longer build time due to combined production in Assembly? Either way, this patch already has an insane amount of changes which will shake up the meta and the faction dynamic, we don't have to fix the entire game in a single patch. Perhaps Substrate will become stronger than PHC this patch? The build times is something we can certainly examine next patch, still lots of other things to look at. I've already got a list.

Since I'm now on the team working on balance, hopefully we can get balance updates out more often.

Thanks for all the feedback, I appreciate it! 

Reply #19 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting priestxes, reply 17
moving punisher behind gateway? What the heck is that about? Seriously?


a one minute difference in the early game makes strategies/tactics/build orders busts or fails. And your defense of this is "lulz bro, punisher > hades" that's hardly the matter at hand. 

So what this effectively does is limit SS strats early game. All we have left to do is expand, PHC can go air or expand, meaning SS still has to worry about both. Building AA at every region is a given, but the timing is important, do it now or wait? for PHC, after the changes, they'll be able to wait longer. 

so im lolling at u because of the first line of the quote.. or did u forget u said that earlier?

u are a good player. u know how the game works. u know how people can use punishers to achieve monumental things. this is why i laughed at u for freaking out about the tech wall on the punisher. i dont see why i need to explain further to you of all people, thus i just laughed. but since it seems u might need a little more explaining for something u already know..

a punisher (weapon has 1500 range) used well can defeat almost anything (contrary to ekko tek's amazing disbelief) it doesnt matter how strong a constable is, a punisher can/will kite it to death or just avoid it and kill everything else. not so with a hades, since a hades drops bombs. meaning a hades has to get close up to raid ur base. in the early game u either have to build a risky air factory and rush a fury or u have to build constables all over the place (which could still die to punishers) SS AA is mobile, meaning u need less of them, and meaning if need be u can spam them even if ur (GLASS) engineer dies. which is about the first thing that dies to a air raid. a mobile force (SS AA) is almost always > immobile (PHC). also u need ZERO special build order to either rush a punisher or rush AA to defend against an air attack. u dont need a special air factory. u dont need rads (for a fury) u dont need (DEAD) engineers. u just need the factory that u had in the first place to produce the units u were producing anyway.. also calculate this.. how long does it take an assembly to produce AA, when u have an engineer tasked to aid it, compared to trying to build a constable with ur dead engineer, how many engineers does one even have early game in order to produce constables to defend an area with. compared to pushing out a couple sky cleansers..

now on to the rest.  imagine the fury rush fails, u built an air factory which is now currently useless, unless u continue to push air(which ur opponent should now be prepared for). now imagine the SS rush fails, ur assembly can still churn out the very units u need (i have never seen a fury rush, i have seen tons of dom rushes)

if anything the problem does not lie in tech walling the dom, it lies in allowing the fury to also be rushed. the point of this entire idea was to stop people from killing the majority of others with a simple cheese tactic. rushing doms isnt strategy. it isnt skill. its a mechanic - producing a highly mobile unit that can almost insta cripple an economy before the opponent has the chance to even establish any form of defence or even deploy intel in order to determine that said cheese is happening. killing someone in the first 4min of the game seems completely and utterly opposite to the whole concept of ashes.. "a grand strategy where if u dont APM like a monster in the first 2 min of the game ur dead"

Reply #20 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

also i know its not a total dice roll, u can check ur opponents score, and if it spikes drastically in the first few min then u know theres air units coming

i also dont see why a game of ashes supposed scale is supposed to be balanced around what tactics one can deploy in the first 2:30 of the game..

even a phoenix in STARCRAFT takes longer to rush than 2:30..

Reply #21 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

My point is, that the changes are unfair to SS, you just admitted as much. But qualified it by saying it rarely happens. I am a good player, and I can tell you that sky cleansers don't perform half as well as you think they do in defending your base against an early fury doing drive bys and sniping engineers and extractors.

I understand air factory is a bigger investment than an assembly as it is more tuned to a specific purpose where as assemblies are more flexible, but that does not address the issue that a player *could* cheese with an early fury. And yes it does happen. You may not see it often, but you do see it. And the constant yammering about how it is soo much of a risk to the PHC player the SS shouldn't worry about it, is mindless. Also I put a guide to early cheese in my guide for BOTH factions, because it does happen, at one point it happened a lot.

I have never done an early punisher rush, because it doesn't seem effective to me, I understand some people did and that's fine, but if you're going to tech wall one factions bomber, tech wall the other. Balance. But you say "lolz that factions bomber sucks, no need to tech wall" then buff the damn bomber. 

Punishers are a lifeline to SS since their armies are so outclassed by PHC ground yes they are a little op, maybe a slight nerf instead of a tech wall is needed. But a tech wall on one faction instead of the other or both is not the right path to "balance" and it's silly to say so. 

 

Reply #22 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting Quesocito, reply 20

even a phoenix in STARCRAFT takes longer to rush than 2:30..>4min actually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo69R6X5afs

its the first video i could find proving how long it takes to get an air unit in even such an APM intensive game..

Quoting priestxes, reply 21

My point is, that the changes are unfair to SS, you just admitted as much. But qualified it by saying it rarely happens. I am a good player, and I can tell you that sky cleansers don't perform half as well as you think they do in defending your base against an early fury doing drive bys and sniping engineers and extractors.

i think we both want the same thing in a way, just from 2 different directions.. i think its ridiculous beyond logic to allow people to rush any air to ground units in 2:30..

i say tech wall the fury.. lets see how many people will complain. in the meantime, i say keep the tech wall on the doms and punishers, BECAUSE THOSE RUSHES HAPPEN MORE OFTEN SO THERFORE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT SHOULD BE BALANCED FIRST...

another option is to considerably lower the damage dominators and furies do to engineers and buildings (just like age of empires did to light cavalry) (omg i cant use an AOE analogy sorry)

you know the hades is less effective than the punisher. especially since the punisher can be micro'd so well. and the hades has been buffed... by a 7% and 10% reduction in cost. thats nothing compared to what a micro'd punisher can do..

Reply #23 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Actually I looked at the changes and thought, that's pretty nice that PHC doesn't have to worry about early air, it is a bit of a distraction to have build blossom launchers every time i a take a region. Then I noticed there was nothing in the patch notes that limits the early air for PHC except of course, the risk.

I apparently don't understand that such players as play this game never take a risk and thus I am safe and sound in knowing that a PHC player will never rush an early fury. And if they do, I shall be safe knowing I can immediately begin to queue sky cleansers and that will protect me. And PHC player will be behind in his ground game. He'll have effectively handed me the game. 

These changes are great. Carry on. 

Reply #24 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

Quoting priestxes, reply 23
These changes are great. Carry on. 

besides the sarcasm, compared to the dominator rush which certainly was not high risk at all, for the same reward? u cant say they're equal bro..

im still saying tech wall the fury to make the sides equal though, but if fury and dom have the same air rush time, it is SS that comes out ahead due to flexibility. continue to deny it as u wish..

Reply #25 from AshesoftheSingularity Forums Top

does anyone know which patch is live? 20MB update today.. im doubting its all 91 changes here..