OctateZero OctateZero

December Vault Discussion

December Vault Discussion

It's a fantastic look into the mundane workings of a development team — I really appreciate the transparency and learned a lot. Thanks to everyone involved.

Initial feedback:

On the number of world types, I see the issues in play. For "even-ness," though, I'd suggest starting with seven types—two easy, two medium, two hard, and rainbow. The current "one medium type" list seems odd.

"Super Melee should stay Super Melee." It's good to hear about the process your team has gone through to reach this decision, and I'm glad you ended up where you did.

I like the model of ship customization you're pursuing. Here's a few to throw in the blender:

 - Flock of Spacegulls: a cloud of sensor decoys you can leave behind while running… far away.
 - a trio of docked escort fighters that can be launched for close defense.
 - treatment plant that converts crew waste to energy. Produces less as crew dies off.
 - solar panel for trickle recharging when in a system (hat tip to the Escape Velocity series).

601,485 views 197 replies
Reply #26 Top

The phamshyt doesn't look like a snail or other mollusk to you, IBN? What's that's thing on the left? Not a shell? 

Also, Phamysht.... Man, that name. I mean, I think I get it - a play on the word "famished" and maybe they're even hungry all the time? But that raises the question - why would they name THEMSELVES based on a weird alternate spelling of an English word, a language they don't know and have never come across? Or if they did come across such a word, and wanted to give it an alternative spelling... 

It just rubs me the wrong way, like how every trashy couple these days wants to be "original" and misspell their baby's name on purpose - like Avery being spelled Ayvereigh. Or Lauren being spelled L'wren. True story. They can both have a party with their friends Reychelle and Phamysht. 

Also, snails are always Phamysht... I mean famished. 

Reply #27 Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 26

The phamshyt doesn't look like a snail or other mollusk to you, IBN? What's that's thing on the left? Not a shell? 

DuckYakSnail. But yes. That crossed my mind too. If he had more black, he could be Turbo the snail's biker cousin.

But that's just a misleading thumbnail...

 

Also... If there are gigabytes of assets, how come we can't get higher resolution images in the updates? (And why am I asking this question when I know that communication is only one-way?)

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Reply #28 Top

the reason we aren't getting higher quality assets in updates is because higher quality means that ~100 MB archive suddenly becomes 1 GB or 500 MB quickly (they did say all the assets they got are 16 GB).  I would also echo adding in a seventh type of planet.  Call it gaia or something like that-with exoplanets out there and the sheer number of systems, I could see these having maybe a 5% chance (35 planets based on 700 systems) of showing up.  Also, I echo the reuse of assets with recolors as it will get boring landing on the same 6 types of planets day in and out (see: NMS-almost every planet is the same with a few minor differences; might take a little more work to make them slightly different; more of a mineral on planet type 1 [re-texture 5] but more of mineral X on planet type 1 [re-texture 3]) so a change in scenery will be welcome and probably stave off the "there's only six planet types" negative review in Steam.  Add more planet types in expansions and DLC but have 7 including gaia in the base game regardless.  

I also have to echo saying 120 days is probably too short a timeframe.  By all means get it out to us but I would say add an extra month to re-iterate will probably be worth it in this case if not longer to make sure every quest works correctly.  I wouldn't know how long a company like Square Enix re-iterates their quests in FFXIV, but their last major patch was September 26 and the next patch is hitting sometime this month (January).  If they can take 90 days ish on a patch with a few quests localized into multiple languages (probably longer than 90 days as work likely started before 3.4's release), as a veteran with expertise in making RPG's, Stardock should probably to be safe, take a lot longer than 120 days to re-iterate.  

Sure, I would release the quests as they are to founder's after the 120 days but re-iteration should be occurring after release based on feedback and bug reports with it.  I would go so far as to make the initial release with quests closed beta open to founder's with a code provided in this sub forum to reduce negative comments.  

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Reply #29 Top

I literally just lost 20 minutes of my life to reddit misleading thumbnails! Hilarious!!! I'm going back after this, but thanks IBN, nice work

Also, good answers and comments Wizisi! I agree! 

Reply #30 Top

Yeah, Stardock defo dropped the ball on alien names. It's only 12 out of 13 are 2-syllable names..... Probably procedurally generated too. XD

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Reply #31 Top

On the planets, if your story says earth-like worlds are exceptionally rare like many sci-fi stories do, then I don't think you need a "water and forest" planet like others are saying.  On the other hand, you definitely must find a way to squeeze an ice planet into the lineup.  Like other people are saying, there is a good chance that ice planets are the most common type in the galaxy.  It certainly makes a lot of sense that they would be, and this is a very old issue too me.  There is probably a whole lot of ice out there.  Rainbow... it's SC.  Acid I see the pretty rainbowness of that too, and the varied lander gameplay from other worlds.  Volcanic is valuable for the same reason as acid.  The only redundant ones are desert and moon... but you need moons, so it's really not redundant.  So I don't see dropping any except maybe Crystalline, but I get Crystalline thing in a big way so keep that too.  I would say you need to add at least 1 more to just barely get by (also having non-landable gas giants, you can also use any planet type or large asteroids as moons), you need to add an ice planet.  There are both smaller ice planets, and much larger ice giants postulated by our real world science... you actually get two planet types for one by simply blowing it up to become an ice giant.

As for Crystalline... My universe started out with a planet type I called "Crystaline", too.  Hoping yours will be as cool as mine... But here's something I learned along the way.  If you want to use the actual scientific name, then... 

"Silicate Planet" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_planet#Types  ...and of course the "Diamond Planet" listed on this same page is pretty interesting too, huh;-)

 

Super Melee... Maybe you could secretly let me in on your office super melee remotely and I cab see if maybe I could vastly speed things up a bit?  I know... not gonna happen:-(  Was looking forward to mid-January, it's been a long time since I had a top down space shooter to play.

 

I think I am a big fan of the Menk-Mack.  I remember liking the weapon/device combination, and I love the little guy it comes with.  Of course The Measured is the ship I see most likely to be valued to low to where I want to take 6 of them, haha.

 

I love the ship in warp/hyperspace on page 17, that looks amazing for the game that SC is.  And I still go against the majority on the planets.  I love the look of the planets, and especially the star on page 18.  I really, really dislike the thick grey lines.  Make them look "star trek TNG-like" modern.  Definitely a not as think, or grey.  Maybe something either dotted or dashed since if I remember right they were little dots in SC... dashes could probably be made to look more modern.  Maybe uniquely oblong shaped dashes of some kind.

 

I know what it is I don't like about the girl now, it's the bun in her hair.  Either cut it off or let it down, haha!  That's probably just a personal taste thing, though.

Reply #32 Top

I love that cosplay is a priority in designing the Earthling commander.

Reply #33 Top

I thought "cosplay" just meant dressing up like super heroes, what does that have to do with the picture of the commander?

I always suspected I didn't fully understand what that word meant...

 

Reply #34 Top

So I haven't really read the rest of the discussion here, but I am just going to pitch in my own two cents...

 

Firstly, I want to say a huge thank you for transparency and showing us Founders the struggles and triumphs in equal light, I only hope that with this information that we as Founders can help root out some of the issues within the game, no matter how small they may be (remember, small details do matter!). Open communication with the members of the Founder's Program is a great risk, and I hope that it turns out to be a gamble in Stardock's favor. However, tackling the major issue at hand I think it is fascinating to see the developmental issues with creating over 700 star systems, and how the Stardock team is dealing with issues of procedural generation and the like. Personally, my experience that simple procedural generation does result in bland and boring planets, as you rightfully described. However, there is one route that really works to "spice up" procedural generation, so to speak, and it has ended up working in actual application. This kind of procedural generation is the kind seen from the likes of XCOM 2, or a system where the map (or world in this case) is made up of several patches to form an overall quilt, so to speak. Each patch is hand-crafted to make sure that certain identifiable traits of a planet are not distorted and mixed into a absurd mess (volcano merging into other mountains or pieces of terrain). These large patches of map design would be connected by transitional pieces, which act as breathing space to the map, and to keep the flow consistent and manageable. This would give volcanic planets a similar theme to one another, but with great variations of map layout and structure to the planet, making each new trip equally enjoyable and exciting (and adding an element of mystery to the mix). In addition to these basic structures I would talk to the art team to find an appropriate amount of features for each different kind of planet (volcanic planets, for example, would have a high "spawn rate" of volcanic patches, with a negligible spawn rate of lakes and oceans). After determining the primary features of each planet type I would suggest making 3-5 "sub-types" for each planet type, with each sub-type having high "spawn rates" for certain features than another (one volcanic planet would be very mountainous, while another would be filled with liquid rock covering a great portion of the planet and so on). It is very important to understand that I state "spawn rates" because I want there to be a chance to have mountains on flat planets, and lava oceans on the mountainous worlds, as not only does this make each planet more diverse and colorful from the same sub-type, but the juxtaposition and contrast of having such defining features on these planets makes these landmarks stand all the more out, and makes each new world feel like a discovery when you run across a unique feature. "Hey, remember that time when you were on the liquid lava planet and came across this massive and hollow canyon, which inside held a plethora of heavy metals" or "Remember when you were climbing up those mountains and spotted a lake near by, and after reaching it you found a pool of resource X." These defining features are critical to breaking up the same tried-and-true landscape of these sub-types, and makes each planet more distinct from the next. A planet generation with these spawn rates would look something like the following...

SPAWN CHANCE FOR PLANET FEATURES:

TYPE 5: (Volcanic)

SUB-TYPE: 1 (FLAT)

Plains Patch: 40%

Ocean Patch: 10%

Mountain Patch: 5%

Volcano Patch: 5%

Cave Patch: 10%

Canyon Patch: 10%

Hills Patch: 20%

TRANSITION PATCHES:

Flat: 50%

Hilly: 10%

River: 20%

Rough: 20%

 

And then you would generate the planet, of course, it would be a lot more complex than this, and you would have to account for minor details, NPCs, technology and all sorts of things. But the basic concept is there, and as shown in XCOM 2 if executed properly the theme of the map remains the same but the adventure never gets stale because there is always something new to find or explore on each planet, turning planet exploration from a monotonous chore to something you can really cherish and look forward too. The sub-types keep the base planet type from becoming boring, and variation within the sub-types keeps these kinds of worlds fresh and interesting for a much longer time than they would be otherwise.

 

Edit: The spawn chance would apply to each individual patch, not the overall planet, and each planet would have anywhere from 10-30 patches depending on how big we wish them to be, this is so a flat planet does not only have a 40% chance to actually be flat, it will just have a lot of flat spots filled with some diverse landmarks sprinkled here and there.

 

Edit 2: Also, 10,000 stars is now a must-happen mod for me, I want to just lose myself in 10,000 stars and really have a true feeling of isolation and exploration, my goodness, it may not be great for the base game and story, but for a survival/exploration mode it would truly be amazing (like an actual proper NMS with diplomacy and better ship combat to boot!) 

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Reply #35 Top
  • I'm really glad modders are getting tools to build custom planets. Maybe even star systems?
  • Memory & performance issues. NEVER LESS VARIETY. Always lower fidelity over less variety. Less variety means more repeating stuff. It's noticeable, it pulls you out of immersion. I don't even care if it takes the game 5 minutes to load. I just don't want loading screens in-game.
  • Ship design is looking good. How many rings do we get to play with? Adjacency bonuses on components? I don't have any thoughts on Magellan's components at the moment, but I have an idea on the rings design. For the sake of role-playing and customization, can the rings be Hexagons, bigger Octagons (for 8 components), Ovals, etc.?
  • We definitely need an Ice world. Scrap Rainbow in favor of Ice and add Rainbow in an update. I never cared for rainbow worlds in SC2. And not having Ice planets, while having desert ones is dumb. Ice planets can be something in-between desert (snow dunes) and crystalline (ice formations) ones, only with colors and crystal shapes resembling ice instead of minerals. I definitely second the notion of recolor planets for the sake of variety. I'd like to visit a black sand desert planet or emerald crystalline world or even teal volcanic planet with cyan magma... I mean we're not exactly trying to imitate IRL universe, right?
  • Galaxy/sector starmap. 10000 stars would be cool if you kept the density of 700 and increased the area size.... I'd love THAT. And I really hate the idea of starting in the corner of the map...
  • I'm glad that THAT default star system camera angle lost. It's only good for still pictures. I'd prefer ~10 degrees tilt. Not more than that. I really love the star system backgrounds. I hope they are animated.

 

Human theme needs a bit longer melodic bits in it. Right now they are kinda too short - leaves you with a sense of in-completion.

Ice Planet exploration music is great! I like how it's not intrusive, but fairly memorable - Ambient is exactly what planet exploration music needs to be. Defo a fan of own music per planet type. EDIT: listening to is more - it's perfect. Nothing needs to change IMO.

I'm not gonna comment on a 1 year old Mukay rig vid. We've already seen it and my old comments on it still stand.

 

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Hunam_, reply 30

Yeah, Stardock defo dropped the ball on alien names. It's only 12 out of 13 are 2-syllable names..... Probably procedurally generated too. XD

Actually...

I think we would have had better alien names if they had used a name generator...

http://fantasynamegenerators.com/alien-names.php#.WGnQTlUrK9I

http://www.scifiideas.com/alien-name-generator/

  • Wruopakx
  • Zoewrelea
  • Chux'orbi
  • Froq'emmy

This one might have given us some cool ship descriptions too...

http://www.springhole.net/writing_roleplaying_randomators/spaceships.htm

This moderate-sized ship is shaped vaguely like a coral growth merged with a soda bottle and is in poor condition.  The interior has a quaint atmosphere and is done in rich colors.  It is not very fast, is not very sturdy, and is not very fuel-efficient.

This tiny ship is shaped vaguely like an ant attached to a snowflake and is in average condition.  The interior has a fairytale-like look to it and is done in colors that remind you of an old computer.  Also, strange lights have been seen moving in the ship when all the light are off.  It is fairly fast, is very sturdy, and is very fuel-efficient.

Reply #37 Top

Quoting cuorebrave, reply 26

The phamshyt doesn't look like a snail or other mollusk to you, IBN? What's that's thing on the left? Not a shell? 

Also, Phamysht.... Man, that name. I mean, I think I get it - a play on the word "famished" and maybe they're even hungry all the time? But that raises the question - why would they name THEMSELVES based on a weird alternate spelling of an English word, a language they don't know and have never come across? Or if they did come across such a word, and wanted to give it an alternative spelling... 

It just rubs me the wrong way, like how every trashy couple these days wants to be "original" and misspell their baby's name on purpose - like Avery being spelled Ayvereigh. Or Lauren being spelled L'wren. True story. They can both have a party with their friends Reychelle and Phamysht. 

Also, snails are always Phamysht... I mean famished. 

 

I mean, are we forgetting the SIRENS-I mean-Syreen?

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Reply #38 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 37

I mean, are we forgetting the SIRENS-I mean-Syreen?

:thumbsup:

Paul and Fred - setting trends for decades.

Reply #39 Top

Well

...

Weirdly interesting, kinda of lazy to write something now, but will soon! ;)

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Reply #40 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 37


Quoting cuorebrave,

The phamshyt doesn't look like a snail or other mollusk to you, IBN? What's that's thing on the left? Not a shell? 

Also, Phamysht.... Man, that name. I mean, I think I get it - a play on the word "famished" and maybe they're even hungry all the time? But that raises the question - why would they name THEMSELVES based on a weird alternate spelling of an English word, a language they don't know and have never come across? Or if they did come across such a word, and wanted to give it an alternative spelling... 

It just rubs me the wrong way, like how every trashy couple these days wants to be "original" and misspell their baby's name on purpose - like Avery being spelled Ayvereigh. Or Lauren being spelled L'wren. True story. They can both have a party with their friends Reychelle and Phamysht. 

Also, snails are always Phamysht... I mean famished. 



 

I mean, are we forgetting the SIRENS-I mean-Syreen?

Well, for the record - they're not called Psywrenns... My point still holds. 

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Reply #41 Top

Exploration Focus:

So in a game of 700 planets,there will be roughly 116 desert,116 moon,116 crystalline,116 volcanic,116 acid,116 rainbow surfaces.

Sorry to be harsh but I already know what players will say about that.It kind of makes planet exploration null and void don't you think?

When you explore it's about discovery isn't it.Trying to find something new then finding something new pushes you to go discover something else.

Isn't it what we do on earth currently.We keep searching for new explanations,new understanding,searching deeper and deeper into space.

I really believe if we only have 6 planet texture surfaces it will negate the desire to explore and possibly shorten the interest of playing the game.This will mean the other aspects of the game will need to take up the slack.

I think 500 to 700 planets is a good size but there will be players out there that will want more.

Hyperspace:

I liked the image of going into hyperspace.

Music:

I was born in the 60's and never could get into the 80's Synth pop.Especially having been spoilt with the greatest rockbands of that era.So I'll let this generation decide what is appropriate music for the game.

Ships:

I liked the variety of ships.I hope there are racial differences in their use.So playing a new race is very different to playing another.

 

Reply #42 Top

^ You really need to check out Jean-Michel Jarre. It's the best space music out there since I was born.

Reply #43 Top

Pretty sure exploration isn't just about what kind of planets are out there, but what is on them. The moon is  just a rock, yes, but it's our rock. Also it has robots on it. Sure, Mercury is pretty much like any planet in close proximity to their sun, but...OMG LOOK AT ALL OF THESE RADIOACTIVES. Pluto is just a boring little spec- ...what the hell is THAT doing there? See  my point? Even within OUR OWN solar system in SC2, there was a reason to explore every planet, even though we KNEW what was there.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 43

Pretty sure exploration isn't just about what kind of planets are out there, but what is on them. The moon is  just a rock, yes, but it's our rock. Also it has robots on it. Sure, Mercury is pretty much like any planet in close proximity to their sun, but...OMG LOOK AT ALL OF THESE RADIOACTIVES. Pluto is just a boring little spec- ...what the hell is THAT doing there? See  my point? Even within OUR OWN solar system in SC2, there was a reason to explore every planet, even though we KNEW™ what was there.

I can't wait to explore 116 Lunas, 116 Mercuries, and 116 Plutos. That sounds like a fun game to me! And all those gas giants that I get to bump into to see if they have anything? Omg!

It will be even bigger than ME1, and I didn't think they could fit any more clone worlds, clone space ships, or clone bases into a game.

/s

Reply #45 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 44


Quoting Volusianus,

Pretty sure exploration isn't just about what kind of planets are out there, but what is on them. The moon is  just a rock, yes, but it's our rock. Also it has robots on it. Sure, Mercury is pretty much like any planet in close proximity to their sun, but...OMG LOOK AT ALL OF THESE RADIOACTIVES. Pluto is just a boring little spec- ...what the hell is THAT doing there? See  my point? Even within OUR OWN solar system in SC2, there was a reason to explore every planet, even though we KNEW™ what was there.



I can't wait to explore 116 Lunas, 116 Mercuries, and 116 Plutos. That sounds like a fun game to me! And all those gas giants that I get to bump into to see if they have anything? Omg!

It will be even bigger than ME1, and I didn't think they could fit any more clone worlds, clone space ships, or clone bases into a game.

/s

Well, SC2 didn't have a lot of planet variation, but each planet it did have was somewhat unique. Another thing I would suggest for planet generation (possibly in addition to my previous suggestion) is to sprinkle technology and structures, ruins, or certain artifacts more freely across the worlds. I remember in SC2 I could count the amount of times something came up on the energy screen on one hand, and it is a shame, because when these signals did pop up, it was very exciting to go down and find out what the fuss is all about.

Reply #46 Top

I said Synth pop Hunam.

There were some great synth pop bands but I couldn't get into it as it was a time of R.E.M,The Smiths,INXS,U2,Chilli Peppers,The Go-Betweens and so many more.Also I wouldn't class Jarre in that style.I would think of him as Ambience,Trance,progressive rock music.Phillip Glass I liked too.But above all I love Dead Can Dance  for their Pagan/Gothic rock and ethereal music.

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Volusianus, reply 43

Pretty sure exploration isn't just about what kind of planets are out there, but what is on them. The moon is  just a rock, yes, but it's our rock. Also it has robots on it. Sure, Mercury is pretty much like any planet in close proximity to their sun, but...OMG LOOK AT ALL OF THESE RADIOACTIVES. Pluto is just a boring little spec- ...what the hell is THAT doing there? See  my point? Even within OUR OWN solar system in SC2, there was a reason to explore every planet, even though we KNEW what was there.

Very True  but remember there is a difference with  gamers out there and their expectations.No Man's Sky was partly hammered for it's repetition wasn't it.

To be honest it would make my day if NASA found a planet with a forest on it.

Reply #48 Top

I wasn't a fan of SC2's planetary mini game at all, and There isn't enough that could be done to SCO to fix the problems with it with the limited budget and resource constraints.

At what point do we just dump the Super Mario Galaxy approach and cut out this mini game altogether?

Reply #49 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 48

I wasn't a fan of SC2's planetary mini game at all, and There isn't enough that could be done to SCO to fix the problems with it with the limited budget and resource constraints.

At what point do we just dump the Super Mario Galaxy approach and cut out this mini game altogether?

We don't. Ever. That is my limit, absolute heresy.

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Reply #50 Top

Quoting IBNobody, reply 48

I wasn't a fan of SC2's planetary mini game at all, and There isn't enough that could be done to SCO to fix the problems with it with the limited budget and resource constraints.

At what point do we just dump the Super Mario Galaxy approach and cut out this mini game altogether?

Okay, you've gone off the deep end. Are you insane? Maybe we just dump the traveling between stars and ship combat, too. 

Speak for yourself, buddy. I would like to hear one single person agree with your approach to cutting out planetary exploration altogether. It's preposterous! 

EDIT: GOD. Thank you, Vulsianus. Thus guy's gone crazy now, it finally happened. If IBN had his way, there would be 14 planets, with no filler and every planet has a quest object on its surface, and you don't have to explore of even land, just click on it to gather whatever you need. And it would all be done with 4 player, local multi-player, All clicking over and over on the same 14 planets and then battling each other. 

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