Want better support for armies

I'm finding that armies are not as good as I would have hopped that they were. I want to like armies, but there are number of problems that seem to make managing them a pain.

1. Dead armies still request units to be built. Not long ago, I quit a game where I lost control over some of my factories. You see, my factories were still building cruisers for armies long destroyed, or destroyed beyond the point of usefulness. It got so bad that my armies were composed of dreadnoughts and frigates. No cruisers were possible because of the overwhelming demand for cruisers for dead armies. The dead armies were still first in line for reinforcements while newer armies have to start at the back of the line.

2. Can't cancel production of army reinforcements. If I order units for armies, I can't cancel them. I can cancel them if I was making an order directly at the factory and then add them to army, but same doesn't seem to be possible for armies that order units directly. I also can't pause production for an army.

3. Some units won't get healed by medics. It seems like a number of my brutes are not at full health. I don't know the cause, only the effect.

4. Can't tell army to replace dead units. I want to click a single button and have the army make an order to replace all killed units. The current way to replace dead units is to order new units. I want the army to remember last configuration and to be able to order units to restore that configuration. Maybe even have a save button so I can use the template for many armies.

5. Leader units can be killed. The leader unit can be killed, making the army no longer be an army. I would have to order the army to become an army once more for it function like an army. I favor dreadnoughts as leaders because they are not easily killed. Cruisers can be a pain because anti-dreadnought units can make short work of them.

6. Only cruisers or dreadnoughts can order units. This is a pain when starting small. You have to add something bigger to the army before reinforcements are possible. Likewise, destroying all cruisers and dreadnoughts will remove the ability to call for reinforcements.

7. Army orders are an open order to all factories. When you make an army order, this will cause all factories to (up to the number of units you ordered) to start working on that order. This does not take into account where your army is, where the factory is, how far away the units have to travel, whether or not they have to travel through enemy territory and possibly get shot at, and whether or not you can afford all factories to be running at once. You could really use some means to pick which factories will build replacement units. I might have managed to get a force behind enemy lines, so the the only factories might want to be using are the ones I built locally.

8. Armies with buildings? There are some locations that you might want to defend using a mix of units and turrets. You add units to the mix because some units have greater firing range than turrets. Much like how an army can smartly manage units in an army, an army with turrets in the mix could have units move to cover weak points and locations where the enemy is concentrating their attack.

9. Withdraw command. I want to be able to tell my army to move in one direction while continuing to point their weapons at the enemy. I find that it is possible to make a move order so sharp that an army will turn around and will retreat without returning fire. There are situations where I don't want that to happen, such as when they are moving too far away from local turrets (and I need them to return to position) or if I want them to withdraw to a nearby friendly army.

10. Choose facing. I want to tell an army which way to face. Telling an army where to go isn't always good enough. If an army isn't prepared to fight an enemy from the proper direction, they will have to adjust that detail when the fight starts. That might mean that you lose some important units in the process because vulnerable artillery is close to the enemy while the meat shields are far away.

40,094 views 7 replies
Reply #1 Top

In addition to your list, I would like to see:

11. Stances for aggressive and defensive. Defensive is the current behavior. Aggressive means subordinate units don't hang so closely around the lead unit so they end up not participating in much of the battles. This is a particular issue for armies lead by Cronus and Artemis.

If the reinforcement system worked better #11 would be less of a need. Let me explain. The current issue with passive units is one of army composition. You want your artillery to stay away from close combat. Ideally the lead unit would be surrounded by a different composition of units compared to close-combat armies. For example you probably need fewer Brutes, perhaps more Hermes and Artemis. An anti-dreadnaught army might have a high proportion of Archers and Nemesis.

But because the reinforcement system is not practicle right now, creating an army means selecting all the units in an area and forming them into an army. Creating a special composition is very difficult and time-consuming, so largely it's not being done. Your armies get composed of a wide variety of units and often the individual army composition is very inefficient. I want armies to be awesome, and that means specializing them. But you need a good reinforcement system to make that happen.

Reply #2 Top

I agree with every single point you made.  I was gonna post a similar topic, but you beat me to it.  This game has the framework in place for greatness, it just needs tweaking.  Medics, especially, need some tweaking.  Often times they will go to the front lines for no reason and heal right next to a unit when they could have easily stayed back.  Retreating is a pain.  I think it would open up a lot more doors for strategy if you had an extra couple of commands.  Like the OP said,


9. Withdraw command. I want to be able to tell my army to move in one direction while continuing to point their weapons at the enemy. I find that it is possible to make a move order so sharp that an army will turn around and will retreat without returning fire. There are situations where I don't want that to happen, such as when they are moving too far away from local turrets (and I need them to return to position) or if I want them to withdraw to a nearby friendly army.

10. Choose facing. I want to tell an army which way to face. Telling an army where to go isn't always good enough. If an army isn't prepared to fight an enemy from the proper direction, they will have to adjust that detail when the fight starts. That might mean that you lose some important units in the process because vulnerable artillery is close to the enemy while the meat shields are far away.

 

I would add a retreat command AND a withdraw command.  Withdraw is fall-back, but shoot.  It would be slower, since they are backing up and shooting, but again, they can shoot.  Retreat is, for a lack of better words, "Run Forest, RUN!"  No shooting occurs, but they move more quickly to the intended point.  For instance, if the enemy calls in an orbital strike, or I see enemy aircraft incoming.

Currently, like eviator mentioned, it's just "Ummm, these guys over here are now an army.  Now, go kill stuff!"  Not the intended mechanic of, "I need artillery here, heavy assault here, fighter escort here."  Speaking of fighters, I want to see some better air cooperation in armies.  You can add them to armies, sure, but they are very useless.  They fly in formation and when attacking don't go on bombing runs away from the leader unit.  Fighters only attack fighters if they are within striking distance of the bombers too.  If I have radar vision, they should go out X distance to engage, that's how fighter escorts in real-life work.  They don't wait till the enemy has a bead on the bombers, they take them out before they can get there.

Reply #3 Top

Lots of good points here.

But a "flee" system like in the Company of heroes games for example doesn't seem right for a high-scale strategy game such as Ashes, in my opinion.

-pac

Reply #4 Top

Really like the idea of "withdrawal", but i do agree that "flee" doesn't make sense for Martyrs, for example, who should sacrifice themselves for the rest of the army. It is in their name! i've also sorely missed the ability to set an orientation similar to how Total War does it (never played the game, but it was demonstrated as a part of the upcoming TW:Warhammer release), though spamming small movement commands does the job.

Here's a few ideas i had in another thread, to help consolidate things. Note i didn't reset the numbers and there could be some overlap here...

 


  1: Adding a bunch of units to another army == forward army mass retreats, breaks formations, stops attacking, oh-god-i-just-lost-the-game. Not sure what the "fix" is but i think if you have a pending movement command, and 50% of the army is really-close to the destination, they should just advance and let the rest of the army catchup and slide into formation.

  2: The ability to priority-target when doing meta-unit vs. meta-unit fights. Basically, if you double-click a particular enemy unit (or maybe the unit-icon in the Army View), the units that are good at fighting that enemy unit will prioritize that unit-type before others (eg, units that are close to the priority-target but it is only "2nd best" at killing it might focus the priority instead of the "1st best". Units that are bad at the priority target will continue to act as normal). Basically, i'd like to be able to tell my Archers/Artemis to focus-fire the Sky Cleaners instead of the Capicators/Reapers because i have a 3x Hades Alpha Strike ready to move in. But my Zues can keep attacking Reapers, my Brutes can being meatshields without 'diving' the Sky Cleaners, my Apollo can still shoot drones, and my Fury can continue shooting their Bombers.

  3: A hot-key to "remove all of this type from army". i will often attach a Fighter+Bomber squad to an excursion/flanking army, but suddenly i get attacked in the center. i want to redirect my Hades without screwing up the rest of my flanking army. Currently, i have to de-activate the army, select the air units, issue the movement, wait for the air units to get out of the way, reselect the army and reconstitute the meta-unit, then re-send them back to attack. Too many steps!

  4: A hot-key to "split this army". Rather than splitting the literal unit-composition in half and into two armies of equal-sized, i'd rather do some sort of density-based clustering algorithm that forms two/three "blobs" and then re-organizes from there into the correct formation.

  5: Better army targeting. You have to really click "on" the enemy meta-unit it isn't enough to click "really close" to the enemy meta-unit. This is espiecially for air units since they'll just fly over them and then act like a dork. Adding to this, Pans rarely attack generators if you issue them an attack command. You have to move them into either the perfect spot or move them around in circles.

 

i do want to point out that the "auto-reinforce" mechanic is a lot less important to me, since i tend to either have my factories build straight to the front or keep them reserved and send the out as waves. In addition, while i think the "leader death" bug certainly happened to me a bunch in the Campaign, it doesn't seem to happen very much in MP. Maybe they stealth-fixed it in their most recent patch.

 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting MegasAlexander, reply 3

Lots of good points here.

But a "flee" system like in the Company of heroes games for example doesn't seem right for a high-scale strategy game such as Ashes, in my opinion.

-pac

Quoting awuffleablehedgie, reply 4

Really like the idea of "withdrawal", but i do agree that "flee" doesn't make sense for Martyrs, for example, who should sacrifice themselves for the rest of the army. It is in their name!

 

 

Well, it was a thought.  But yeah, after thinking about it a bit it does seem like a full-on retreat thing wouldn't work out too well.  I just don't like to lose units and would prefer a fast method to fall back to defenses or something, but I probably shouldn't be as concerned as I am about losing units :P

 

On to the auto-reinforce idea that's been thrown around.  

4. Can't tell army to replace dead units. I want to click a single button and have the army make an order to replace all killed units. The current way to replace dead units is to order new units. I want the army to remember last configuration and to be able to order units to restore that configuration. Maybe even have a save button so I can use the template for many armies.

Quoting awuffleablehedgie, reply 4

i do want to point out that the "auto-reinforce" mechanic is a lot less important to me, since i tend to either have my factories build straight to the front or keep them reserved and send the out as waves.

 

Building factories to the front is a great way to push the offensive, but when factories are on a repeat queue, they don't really make the needed units for reinforcement.  Would it be possible to have reinforcements come first from units that aren't part of an army, like ones that are being auto-created from factories, and then if the right units isn't found, have a factory build them?  That way reinforcements can come from units on the field already, and it would make more sense to have spare units on the field to pull reinforcements from.

 

Quoting awuffleablehedgie, reply 4


Here's a few ideas i had in another thread, to help consolidate things. Note i didn't reset the numbers and there could be some overlap here...

  1: Adding a bunch of units to another army == forward army mass retreats, breaks formations, stops attacking, oh-god-i-just-lost-the-game. Not sure what the "fix" is but i think if you have a pending movement command, and 50% of the army is really-close to the destination, they should just advance and let the rest of the army catchup and slide into formation.

  2: The ability to priority-target when doing meta-unit vs. meta-unit fights. Basically, if you double-click a particular enemy unit (or maybe the unit-icon in the Army View), the units that are good at fighting that enemy unit will prioritize that unit-type before others (eg, units that are close to the priority-target but it is only "2nd best" at killing it might focus the priority instead of the "1st best". Units that are bad at the priority target will continue to act as normal). Basically, i'd like to be able to tell my Archers/Artemis to focus-fire the Sky Cleaners instead of the Capicators/Reapers because i have a 3x Hades Alpha Strike ready to move in. But my Zues can keep attacking Reapers, my Brutes can being meatshields without 'diving' the Sky Cleaners, my Apollo can still shoot drones, and my Fury can continue shooting their Bombers.

  3: A hot-key to "remove all of this type from army". i will often attach a Fighter+Bomber squad to an excursion/flanking army, but suddenly i get attacked in the center. i want to redirect my Hades without screwing up the rest of my flanking army. Currently, i have to de-activate the army, select the air units, issue the movement, wait for the air units to get out of the way, reselect the army and reconstitute the meta-unit, then re-send them back to attack. Too many steps!

  4: A hot-key to "split this army". Rather than splitting the literal unit-composition in half and into two armies of equal-sized, i'd rather do some sort of density-based clustering algorithm that forms two/three "blobs" and then re-organizes from there into the correct formation.

  5: Better army targeting. You have to really click "on" the enemy meta-unit it isn't enough to click "really close" to the enemy meta-unit. This is espiecially for air units since they'll just fly over them and then act like a dork. Adding to this, Pans rarely attack generators if you issue them an attack command. You have to move them into either the perfect spot or move them around in circles.

 

 

I agree with all of this except point 2.  While I would love to be able to prioritize units, if that were possible it would throw off the point of armies in a way.  Currently, if a unit isn't part of an army you can target it individually, but if it IS part of one, there is a specific chain that occurs in combat.  Start up front and work your way backwards. With this mechanic, you have to make your army composition in such a way that you have enough melee units to protect the ranged units and medics.  Secondly, you can always flank with another army to get at the ranged guys in the back.  With prioritization, medics would get selected as one of the first targets in combat, thus making them not useful in an attacking army.  Why make a unit that's just gonna get gunned down quickly?  The same for bombers.  I could get a bomber squadron to target artillery instead of an entire army, or use nemesis units to kill specific targets in one or two shots.  In one of the campaign missions, I think mission 4, I was told that an army of nemesis units were incoming and that I should add squishy units to make more targets for the nemesis to hit, but with unit targeting that wouldn't make any sense.  Perhaps I'm wrong, and if so feel free to let me know, but that's my two cents on the matter.

Reply #6 Top

What I really would like to see and maybe it is in the game already and I just don't know how to use it:

Shooting while moving backwards. So even though your troops are slowly retreating to safer areas, they keep dishing out damage to the enemies.

-pac

Reply #7 Top

Quoting MegasAlexander, reply 6

What I really would like to see and maybe it is in the game already and I just don't know how to use it:

Shooting while moving backwards. So even though your troops are slowly retreating to safer areas, they keep dishing out damage to the enemies.

-pac

 

Yeah, that's the "withdraw" feature that's been mentioned by a few of us on the page.  It would be pretty sick.