The Strategic Zoom debate

You are brave to raise this issue again!

I notice you put in the description the current zoom is 15,000 feet. Earlier in the Alphas, may be in Beta 1 too (I forget) it was greater than that, maybe 25,000 (forget exactly). I thought that was a decent compromise. I think the 15,000 came in when you decided the units should be identifiable from max range (while at the same time making the units smaller). I did see some complaints on Steam in the Alpha from people saying the units were too small zoomed out and they had to zoom in a lot...though they could just zoom out less! I hope your reaction to reduce the zoom was not a knee jerk reaction to some of those players. The previous zoom level allowed just enough zoom out to get a better lay of the land and to direct armies more easily while not creating a disjoint between the max zoom out and the close in view. I see your points on the full zoom out, it does look more like a strategic table top game rather than the more up close and personal feel you are going for. But personally I wish you'd stuck to the earlier zoom out, it was a great balance imho, offering a better compromise while still sticking close to your desired criteria.

(Slight edit to help make a touch more sense)

At 2:25 on you touched on my major complaint about the current max zoom level. As a strategy game that emphasizes terrain with regard to unit/building mechanics, pathing, and region separation, the current zoom level makes it difficult to develop that strategy. Getting the big picture of the terrain is pretty darn important to the gameplay, yet you cripple our ability to get that big picture.

I often find myself lost in your maps. Your maps lack distinguishable features (major lakes, rivers, and mountain ranges) that define and divide the primary play area. All your hills, depressions, mountains, and plateaus look the same. A few of your maps don't have this problem, but most do. In the maps in every other RTS game I've played, after I familiarize myself with the map layout I could close my eyes, pan around randomly, open my eyes, and I could tell you exactly where I was looking. In Ashes you need to be able to zoom out more (or worse, pan around) to figure out where you are looking.

I'm not one of those who wants icons. I want to see an overview of the map terrain so I can strategize. I don't even see it necessary for this to be viewable on the main map. The strategic map could show the terrain as the base map, with the colored regions and units as an overlay. But you have shied away from overlays because you think that is a path toward icons. I don't know how you might proceed, but I can say, as someone who likes Ashes a lot, you have a major conceptual disconnect between map size, strategic dependence on terrain, and zoom level that I think will be a turn off for many.

I am still hoping that the Future of AOTS will have some kind of a really interesting and a new kind of strategic zoom with no icons. That will make every other RTS games out there sucks big time.

I still want to remind you guys about my Strategic zoom Mock-up, did the Dev's looked into it? did they made that kind of Mock-up test in a closed insider build test?

Playing and testing new ideas is a great thing to do while developing a groundbreaking brand new game called Ashes of the Singularity!

Cheers everyone.

Eviator makes a lot of good points. The map generator is going to be great in many ways but one problem is that hills/mountains etc. do all look the same thus creating the problems he mentions. And the disconnect between zoom level and map size will only get larger as the maps get bigger. As I said in my own post I can live without full zoom but more zoom would be better.

As an aside, is there some new lighting in that version? Looks good.

This is true, that's why I do think too that more height variations in the game will help a lot more (add at least 5+ variations)

Well Let's talk about it.

Ty for bring this so important question.

I understand the way your team wants to make a good image and quality vision on all units, but thats possible without icons and with full Zoom.

First 100% agreement icons has to end, I hate and i play FA every days.
As for the Full Zoom.

I still think there is some confusion ... When you Full Zoom is not to understand which units are there because you cant even on SC or FAF, I never used in FAF Full Zoom to see what the different units are there because it is impossible, but for a quick movement of the camera without no major stresses, works perfectly and there is no better mechanism to be a active player in every moments in the game.

Has you see i cant understand what units are there,but i can easy have a fast look of what is happend to make fast decisions.

It is necessary in this kind of battles games  Full Zoom and without the need icons.

I normaly view my game like this.

And AOTS can be bether.

I play TA FA since always and always on Multiplayer , and only those who play SCFA as active player understands the elegance and easy speed that Full Zoom brings to the game,its necessary and results perfection like no other.

But if not possible by AOTS team ,be a modder will alowed me and others think in bether ways to what we think its bether to ower play Style.

This game already have bether look on the units and fights then SCFA,the gameplay and economic system its diferent but also fun, so what i think its you guys have made all possible by mods to this game so impossible not like Ashes.

This, specifically:

Is what we want to avoid.

The issues that Eviator brings up are genuine.  The problem is, over time, we can make sure maps gain more detail as he describes.  By contrast, once you support zooming out, you can't really go back.  It's a one way trip. 

When I play the game with the current default zoom (see above) I definitely don't feel limited.  I think it could be argued that we zoom out to far as even at this zoom out, it's hard to recognize the units.

 When people stream their games of SupCom (as well as when I play the game), the late game is played almost entirely zoomed out and it just isn't engaging (to play or to watch) at least for me.  Now, mind you, to use the Panzer General analogy, that game has a lot of fans and there is a market for that style of game.  But it's not a gameplay style I personally would enjoy.

I may be wrong, but it seems like a false narrative. Without icons or some other way to distinguish units, who would choose to play always zoomed out at max level? I don't even do that now with the limited zoom out we currently have. Playing zoomed all the way out all the time doesn't even make sense in this game, so I don't know why you fear that becoming the established norm. Without icons the full zoom provides strategic awareness (including terrain), easier to give large scale movement orders, and an easy way to whip around the map. But when it comes to scouting, laying structures, selecting units, using orbitals, giving tactical orders, and monitoring the status of battles, people will zoom in by necessity, just as we do now. The degree of max zoom out doesn't change that.

I think the answer you might provide is "if we allow full zoom out, people will ask for icons, and we don't want to give them icons." I guess I don't have an answer for that except to tell them "no", and I can see why you don't want to be put into that situation. I can see this isn't going to change before release, so I'll happily get off the soap box and quietly monitor the reaction from the general public. Maybe everyone will laud you for the decision and I'll eat crow. Or maybe not...

Your video made me smile. You say you want people to enjoy the game but in the end what you really want is people to enjoy the game the same way you think it must be enjoyed. This sounds like "Listen player, let me tell you what is fun and what is not fun : What is fun is what is fun for me, and you have to be ok with it, otherwise, it means you don't know what is fun"

I don't think it's so sinister as that. They have a vision that does not include icons, and I respect that decision. Am glad about it, actually. They want people to see their units, and they cannot be faulted for that. I just don't happen to follow their narrative that no icons necessitates restricted zoom out.

Quoting jetsnguns, reply 9

Your video made me smile. You say you want people to enjoy the game but in the end what you really want is people to enjoy the game the same way you think it must be enjoyed. This sounds like "Listen player, let me tell you what is fun and what is not fun : What is fun is what is fun for me, and you have to be ok with it, otherwise, it means you don't know what is fun"

I would say that we don't want the minority of hard core players to dictate to the majority of traditional RTS players how to play the game.

Once you zoom it out, there's no going back. It's a different game.

Quoting Frogboy, reply 11

Quoting jetsnguns,

reply 9

Your video made me smile. You say you want people to enjoy the game but in the end what you really want is people to enjoy the game the same way you think it must be enjoyed. This sounds like "Listen player, let me tell you what is fun and what is not fun : What is fun is what is fun for me, and you have to be ok with it, otherwise, it means you don't know what is fun"

I would say that we don't want the minority of hard core players to dictate to the majority of traditional RTS players how to play the game.

Once you zoom it out, there's no going back. It's a different game.

 

OK i simply did not get the core message I prefer this

Wow, way to fold to such a weak argument As someone who will likely never play ranked multiplayer I would not consider myself hardcore, yet I still want full zoom out (no icons) because it makes sense for the mechanics of the game. It is possible to have some overlap between hardcore and traditional players on design decisions that fit the game. Which traditional players (not inside Stardock) are telling you restricted zoom out is better? Or are you taking the silent majority as the majority consent? If so, that is a logical fallacy.

When a game is designed and thought of this size, I do not see why  Full Zoom isnt the standard or even the afraid to take risk.

I think 90% of the players here are interested in the full zoom without icons.

It is true that it is an authentic challenge to manage this, but it is also true that if you make it happend  this game will be even more spectacular and will grab mush more players.
You only need to make the most understand that the full zoom is not to understand which units are there ,but a quick movement of the camera in battles and large maps.

And with time you guys with a bit ower help like ASADDF  will find a good way to work with some diferent information about all we see on field, lets risk on single player first to see how it runs only to founders.

Wy not have both options to choose in game ( Full Zoom or Limited Zoom) same has the pan right key mouse we have right now?

Since the tech is capable of doing such full zoom out, then why not offer this option for "Hardcore" gamers ? Well i don't know if hardcore is the good word. There are hardcore gamers playing Stracraft 2 ... I don't really imagine Blizzard voluntary limiting the APS for Starcraft 3 because lots of players can't beat hardcore gamers .....

Honestly, if this option is kept as non usable in ladders, but available for players who like to play the game with full zoom out, then where's the problem ?

I can't believe Stardock is not able to bring a nice overlay for players using full zoom out. When you've build Oxyde engine, you can do everything.

Just so that we're clear:  The purpose of my video was to explain my viewpoint on the debate in question.  I am not expecting to persuade some of you to my point of view, I just wanted you to understand where it was coming from.  The camera zoom level isn't changing.

Frogboy,

I guess you're making a game so that people enjoy playing it, isn't it ?

Let's say full zoom out with a true strategic zoom is just an option available for people willing to play with it, but is only possible for private games, how would this be a problem ? The default would remain conform to your point of view.

I noticed you did not say "The camera zoom level will not change" but "isn't changing", which means you keep an option to go back to a wiser solution

Sry but now you totaly have confuse me !!

What are we talk about it then?

just so we can see his point of view...to me it isn't a big deal..but i would very much like full zoom and i am not a supreme commander groupie..never liked it that much

As I said in the video, I don't have any problem with people modding it for private use.  But we won't support it nor will people be able to play MP with it.

Still just a bit of ambiguity left: won't be able to play MP with it, or won't be able to play ranked MP with it? I'd like the ability to play it with zoom out modded with friends in an unranked comp stomp.

I think that's gonna be parts of The Custom games, or maybe they will add a new section in the game called 'Mod play'.

Sure, just want verification that support for unranked multiplayer with mods is planned because I don't recall sieeing that anywhere.

I'd like verification on this as well. Most of my friends are primarily interested in multiplayer, but will only play if a greater zoom level is possible. If we are able to play modded unranked multiplayer together, that would be great!

No verification either way.  In the near term, you'd have to play with the modding flag on which will disable MP.

Longer term, we'll see.