Sinkillr Sinkillr

FIX Cobalt attack behavior (screenshots)

FIX Cobalt attack behavior (screenshots)

Seriously... this is causing me to hate playing tec... 

The problem I am talking about is when your cobalts try to attack a fleeing enemy ship (lets say a cap). The idiot cobalts run to cap, decide to stop JUST at the edge of their attack range, decelerate and shoot one volley, and dilly dally for 3-5 seconds while the enemy cap laughs and retreats with sub 500 health. This is extremely frustrating, as even a few seconds could have meant a dead enemy cap. None of the other light frigates have this kind of behavior, as the disciples and the skirmishers stay with the fleeing target, and shoot while moving.

 

(If you still dont understand, think of how like in starcraft 2, the terran marines have to stop to shoot their rifles (TEC). Then stop and think about how unbalanced it would be if they could suddenly shoot while moving (advent and vasari).

 

Now I know what the multiplayer folks will come out and say; you have to predict the path of the fleeing enemy cap and move to its destination, thus enabling the cobalts to shoot while moving. But this is only a partial solution. Often times, the severe lag in multiplayer makes your ships not auto-fire at all, even when within range of enemy ships. And if your opponent decides to surround his fleeing cap with other ships, the crap ai decides to shoot at them instead of the cap. And keep in mind you can't decide to shoot at the cap itself, as that immediately makes the cobalt decelerate and resume their idiot dance. This also is a problem when skilled players decide to play ring-around-the-rosie with repair bays, as then the cobalts become useless (other light frigates are ok at dealing with this).

 

This wouldn't be a problem if all light frigates had this trait. However, the fact that only the cobalt is singled out means that tec are at a disadvantage when it comes to lf spam with other races, especially advent, as their lf are more cost efficient.

 

I propose that all light frigates in the game (disciples, skirmishers) be given this attack behavior, as I think it would mitigate the heavy light frigate spam tec/advent early game is becoming. This would also increase the skill ceiling, as this behavior can be microed with (but virtually impossible unless you have fantastic rig or no lag game). Or you could decide to remove it altogether, making cobalts equal with other light frigates.

 

Screenshots- There are multiple captures, so make sure to watch them in order

cobalts- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/6lqx.jpg/

Disciples- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/3wu3.jpg/

 

 

P.S. vasari loyalist titan still broken. I tested it and it killed 90 cobalts plus marza with only 5 overseers. It was level 1, and had all health upgrades. Tec was slightly upgraded

67,824 views 59 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 22

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 21I think this proves my argument... the cobalts are clearly doing some sort of Indian war dance; the disciples in contrast are neatly packed together, always staying in close proximity to the marza and shooting at it.

A Marza has a max speed of 525.

A Prog has a max speed of 450.

Now you are just throwing numbers around without explaining how they lead to a different conclusion... a simple explanation of "because Prog has speed of 450, x resulted" would be helpful to your argument... 

In any case, it would seem like the faster speed of the Marza would result in the disciples exhibiting more of the behavior, not less... because when they decelerate to shoot, the Marza would now be farther away in comparison to the prog... which is what we saw with the cobalts... making your implied assumption that ship speed is the sole reason for this faulty. I'm not positive you even looked at my screenshots...

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 23

I don't play online as ZombiesRus5 

What is your ICO nickname then?

Reply #27 Top

I 100% agree with Sinkiller here and have noticed that as well. The problem only affects LFs not disps. And disciples do appear to shoot sideways and LFs(small ragnarovs) dont which is what causes them to do that turnng thing ilustrated in the screenshots.

I would also like to know Zombie's ICO nick, his high ground know-it-all modder attitude is tiring.

 

Reply #28 Top

Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 27

I 100% agree with Sinkiller here and have noticed that as well. The problem only affects LFs not disps. And disciples do appear to shoot sideways and LFs(small ragnarovs) dont which is what causes them to do that turnng thing ilustrated in the screenshots.

 

Are you trolling this thread?

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 26
Now you are just throwing numbers around without explaining how they lead to a different conclusion... a simple explanation of "because Prog has speed of 450, x resulted" would be helpful to your argument... 

When you collect data you should attempt to keep variance between the tests down as much as possible. Given a Marza and a Prog have different speeds it may impact what you observe. 

As the person presenting the hypothesis it's your job to prove it not ours. It's our job as suspect reviewers to point out the flaws in your data gathering and observation.

But in the interest of fairness I recorded a simple video of disciples FF'ing a Marza on the run and Cobalt's FF'ing a Marza on the run. Their movement behavior is identical which is what my assumption was.

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Reply #29 Top

I swear I am watching confused sperm under a microscope...

Reply #30 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 29

I swear I am watching confused sperm under a microscope...

Sin's frigates like to fight like the British in the first 5 minutes of this clip.

The British fail though when the movement starts after the first 5 minutes.

Reply #31 Top

Nice dodge zombie, keep hiding behind your forum nick. By the way, just you know to point out that disps and lfs actually act differently even in your videos... I suggest you do some more testing as that doesnt show anything.

What sin has stated in an accepted fact in multiplayer and if you struggle to accept that fact thats your problem. Its not a hypothesis and it doesnt need to be "proved".

P.S: That film was so terrible lol as all amercian "historical" films tend to be.

Reply #32 Top

Im not sure if that was a poor attempt at trolling or what. There are a number of things wrong with your video, one of which is that the disciples are moving to the OUTSIDE of the gravwell starting from the inside, and the cobalts are at best parallel to it. That is why you see the some of the discs behaving strangely at the start of the video, because some of them get caught in the center yellow ring. Plus, I seem to recall ships move faster when they move closer to the center than to the edge.

There are numerous other factors too that I dont feel writing it all out, like the path of the marza. You should try to have it move in a straight line, like in my screenshots.

If I'm not feeling too lazy today I will try to set a video up.

Reply #33 Top

Look, all ships in the game move the same... they act slightly different though when they have different stats. The same goes for firing weapons. 

Now, before I get into the rest, I will say that there is a well known issue with ships turning (I believe that was mentioned), that may be what you are thinking of. 

All 3 light frigates have the exact same speed, acceleration and firing range. However, some of this may get messed with if you're running mods.

Are you running any mods? Now or ever?

Have you manually edited any sins files recently or ever?

There is no gameplay difference between MP and SP. 

You say you get this in MP, can you confirm it does not happen at all in SP? 

I have seen other MP games (like WOW) where lagging causes a player to appear in one place, but not be there because the local pc has not received the new location info.

How fast and stable is your internet connection? 

Do they act like they are following a waypoint, stop and change direction, accelerate and repeat?

Are there any ships your cobalts chase that do not experience this issue? 

Are you messing with the default attack ranges, auto attack behaviors, or doing anything other than right click to attack?

You seem to always mention a group of cobalts, does this occur at all with lone cobalts? 

 

Reply #34 Top

I think it is safe to say no one was using a mod for any of these pictures or videos...and I think it's safe to say Jingly and Sinkillr aren't regularly using mods....

I'm not convinced that cobalts act any differently than disciples, but I'm open to the possibility...the only 2 stat differences I can see being even remotely relevant are the fleet formation rank and the weapon cooldown times....

It doesn't make sense that this issue would only occur on ICO or be related to lag....why would lag affect one ship over another?  That just doesn't make any sense...

You could say that maybe only lag occurred in their TEC games, but Jingly and Sinkillr have lots of games and it would be virtually impossible for them to only have experienced lag when playing TEC (unless they only played TEC, but that's not the case either).....

I will say this....there is a pathfinding issue with titans doing stupid stuff when trying to phase jump, and it does not seem to affect all titans equally (VL seems to be the worse IMO)...could it be that different size meshes affect ship pathfinding?  That seems unlikely but, well, who knows.....it is a fact that the progenitor sometimes spazzes out, continually flipping around near instantaneously and the only likely explanation is that it has a super narrow mesh...

Reply #35 Top

I keep saying this but noone listens, its due to the fact the disps are more able to shoot "sideways" or off the straight line than LFs are. Lfs are affected by the Ragnarov behaviour / turning / line of fire which makes them turn 90% degrees when unable to FF in a straight line. At least it appear to "look" that way .

Disciples are simply more flexible. Everyone whos been playing this game and micro his ships with more than just right clicking on the taget will know this.

Its an accepted fact just like AL titan's "ability" to do backflips in one place for no reason when surrounded by lots of small ships.

@Seleu nothing to do with fleet formation as i have never ever used fleets in sins. Dont even know how they work lol. Not sure about weapon cooldown times, is it the same for both?

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 21

I got some screenshots.

Make sure to watch all of them in order:

Cobalts- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/6lqx.jpg/

Disciples- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/3wu3.jpg/

I think this proves my argument... the cobalts are clearly doing some sort of Indian war dance; the disciples in contrast are neatly packed together, always staying in close proximity to the marza and shooting at it.

So much for having no idea what I am talking about...

You clearly need to make it a video, the screenshots are not conclusive enough as evidence.

Reply #37 Top

Now that I know who Jingly is- I find his trolling in this thread even funnier.

 

Reply #38 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 37

Now that I know who Jingly is- I find his trolling in this thread even funnier.

 

 

At least i dont hide behind my forum nick mr BrainDead, besides its never been a secret since its the same on ICO.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 38


Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 37
Now that I know who Jingly is- I find his trolling in this thread even funnier.

 

 

At least i dont hide behind my forum nick mr BrainDead, besides its never been a secret since its the same on ICO.

Lol, the irony of this statement is pretty humorous.

 

Reply #40 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 37

Now that I know who Jingly is- I find his trolling in this thread even funnier.

 

Way to completely misrepresent what actually happened in ICO chat to your benefit... IIRC Jingly said he was trolling in his methods but in essence agreed with my main idea. 

We need more player input in this, preferably multiplayer folks, not snobbish, stuck up, and rude modders

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 40
We need more player input in this, preferably multiplayer folks, not snobbish, stuck up, and rude modders

How eloquent...........nice to know how you really feel about me...

Reply #42 Top

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 33

Look, all ships in the game move the same... they act slightly different though when they have different stats. The same goes for firing weapons. 

Now, before I get into the rest, I will say that there is a well known issue with ships turning (I believe that was mentioned), that may be what you are thinking of. 

All 3 light frigates have the exact same speed, acceleration and firing range. However, some of this may get messed with if you're running mods.

Are you running any mods? Now or ever?

Have you manually edited any sins files recently or ever?

There is no gameplay difference between MP and SP. 

You say you get this in MP, can you confirm it does not happen at all in SP? 

I have seen other MP games (like WOW) where lagging causes a player to appear in one place, but not be there because the local pc has not received the new location info.

How fast and stable is your internet connection? 

Do they act like they are following a waypoint, stop and change direction, accelerate and repeat?

Are there any ships your cobalts chase that do not experience this issue? 

Are you messing with the default attack ranges, auto attack behaviors, or doing anything other than right click to attack?

You seem to always mention a group of cobalts, does this occur at all with lone cobalts? 

 

No modding/editing whatsoever. It happens in singleplayer as well, thats where the screenshots originated. But, to say gameplay is the exact same between MP and SP i think is not correct. I notice units tend to react faster in multiplayer such as faster auto-attacking between targets. I have pretty good internet/computer and get no late-game slowdown late game (besides "the lag" everybody seems to get). 

Not sure about the single cobalts thing...

EDIT: I meant to say slower auto attack in multiplayer... 

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 41


Quoting Sinkillr, reply 40We need more player input in this, preferably multiplayer folks, not snobbish, stuck up, and rude modders

How eloquent...........nice to know how you really feel about me...

Nowhere in the post does it mention you... I actually think you are nice and helpful.

Zombie on the other hand...

Reply #44 Top

You've had three multi-players comment on your thread. Two are actually recognized in the MP community. The other is an apparent Troll on many threads in this forum and admitted to who he actually is on ICO. I won't spill who Jingly is because I find it somewhat humorous and am glad he found a way to reinvent himself. Also, I'm glad he's doing well in PvP games.

Sel and I at least gave your opinion some decent consideration and compared game files, looked at overall differences between the two units and generated tangible tests in regard to what you think you are seeing.

Simply try harder if you think you are right.

 

Reply #45 Top

Ok zombie that last comment was harsh and unhelpful and I take it back. I still think you are totally wrong though so I will post video later in the day

Reply #46 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 42
I notice units tend to react faster in multiplayer such as faster auto-attacking between targets.

I think there are a lot of little things like this that may have to do with alloy...faster on ICO is definitely not the same as faster while in SP...

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 43
Nowhere in the post does it mention you... I actually think you are nice and helpful.

Aye it alright, I just saw "modders" and well, there's only 2 of us in here....

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 44
The other is an apparent Troll on many threads in this forum and admitted to who he actually is on ICO. I won't spill who Jingly is because I find it somewhat humorous and am glad he found a way to reinvent himself.

About that...uhm.....are you sure about that?

 

 

 

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 46
Quoting Sinkillr, reply 43
Nowhere in the post does it mention you... I actually think you are nice and helpful.
Aye it alright, I just saw "modders" and well, there's only 2 of us in here....

Ya the two with extensive PvP experience. I only saw us on the "special" list too.

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 46
Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 44
The other is an apparent Troll on many threads in this forum and admitted to who he actually is on ICO. I won't spill who Jingly is because I find it somewhat humorous and am glad he found a way to reinvent himself.
About that...uhm.....are you sure about that?

Makes for a fun story either way.

Reply #48 Top

I was reading your last few posts zombie and was like what is he on about? My nicks are identical on both platforms but have now realised who you somehow?! got me confused with. All im going to say is that you are trolling yourself and us for no reason zombie and there is absolutely no need for it. Everything i have written in this thread are the observations from the MP community.

@Seley Sin obviously didnt mean you, we love you etc... but some of the modders like zombie and X smth guy have a horrible and unhelpful better than you attitude so its hard not to agree with him. Even look at the replies here, i dont agree with you = you are troll conclusions from zombie.

Reply #49 Top

Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 48
Even look at the replies here, i dont agree with you = you are troll conclusions from zombie.

To be fair, I sometimes pulled that card when people would argue wail wasn't OP....of course, when pro players come on here and said "use radiance to disable culture centers" even though it can't target things without AM, well, hard not to call them trolls...

Reply #50 Top

Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 48
Even look at the replies here, i dont agree with you = you are troll conclusions from zombie.

Actually I was giving you the benefit of the doubt calling your posts trolling... Otherwise you've said some pretty dumb stuff here.