FIX Cobalt attack behavior (screenshots)

Seriously... this is causing me to hate playing tec... 

The problem I am talking about is when your cobalts try to attack a fleeing enemy ship (lets say a cap). The idiot cobalts run to cap, decide to stop JUST at the edge of their attack range, decelerate and shoot one volley, and dilly dally for 3-5 seconds while the enemy cap laughs and retreats with sub 500 health. This is extremely frustrating, as even a few seconds could have meant a dead enemy cap. None of the other light frigates have this kind of behavior, as the disciples and the skirmishers stay with the fleeing target, and shoot while moving.

 

(If you still dont understand, think of how like in starcraft 2, the terran marines have to stop to shoot their rifles (TEC). Then stop and think about how unbalanced it would be if they could suddenly shoot while moving (advent and vasari).

 

Now I know what the multiplayer folks will come out and say; you have to predict the path of the fleeing enemy cap and move to its destination, thus enabling the cobalts to shoot while moving. But this is only a partial solution. Often times, the severe lag in multiplayer makes your ships not auto-fire at all, even when within range of enemy ships. And if your opponent decides to surround his fleeing cap with other ships, the crap ai decides to shoot at them instead of the cap. And keep in mind you can't decide to shoot at the cap itself, as that immediately makes the cobalt decelerate and resume their idiot dance. This also is a problem when skilled players decide to play ring-around-the-rosie with repair bays, as then the cobalts become useless (other light frigates are ok at dealing with this).

 

This wouldn't be a problem if all light frigates had this trait. However, the fact that only the cobalt is singled out means that tec are at a disadvantage when it comes to lf spam with other races, especially advent, as their lf are more cost efficient.

 

I propose that all light frigates in the game (disciples, skirmishers) be given this attack behavior, as I think it would mitigate the heavy light frigate spam tec/advent early game is becoming. This would also increase the skill ceiling, as this behavior can be microed with (but virtually impossible unless you have fantastic rig or no lag game). Or you could decide to remove it altogether, making cobalts equal with other light frigates.

 

Screenshots- There are multiple captures, so make sure to watch them in order

cobalts- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/6lqx.jpg/

Disciples- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/3wu3.jpg/

 

 

P.S. vasari loyalist titan still broken. I tested it and it killed 90 cobalts plus marza with only 5 overseers. It was level 1, and had all health upgrades. Tec was slightly upgraded

67,824 views 59 replies
Reply #1 Top

I find all frigates do this even disciples and yes it's irritating 

Reply #2 Top

On a scale of 1-10, disciples/skirmishers have it 2 and cobalts 9.

Reply #3 Top

I personally haven't found a difference between cobalts and other ships that do this (other LFs and HCs)...

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 3

I personally haven't found a difference between cobalts and other ships that do this (other LFs and HCs)...

^  Long range frigates too

Reply #5 Top

I've never found the long range frigates to have this problem, as their absurd range allows you to scoot-and-shoot easily compared to light frigates.

Seleucia- the point is this behavior seems to be almost exclusively affecting tec lf, instead of all races. Its balanced in the other cases because every race is subject to it.

Reply #6 Top

LRFs also don't move as fast so they are less likely to "overshoot" targets they are chasing...

It's not like I've gone out and proved this, but I just don't feel there is any difference between cobalts and disciples/skirmishers when it comes to this problem...if someone is up for testing it and decisively proving it one way or another, I'd be up for seeing those results...

My experiences tell me though that you will have this problem with all LFs and all HCs...looking at the files doesn't suggest cobalts would be any different either (though that's not proof in its own right)...

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 6

LRFs also don't move as fast so they are less likely to "overshoot" targets they are chasing...

It's not like I've gone out and proved this, but I just don't feel there is any difference between cobalts and disciples/skirmishers when it comes to this problem...if someone is up for testing it and decisively proving it one way or another, I'd be up for seeing those results...

My experiences tell me though that you will have this problem with all LFs and all HCs...looking at the files doesn't suggest cobalts would be any different either (though that's not proof in its own right)...

Play two matches of multiplayer with advent and tec each. I guarantee you will notice it immediately. Plus its not like this came out of the blue, i remember back in diplomacy somebody was complaining about this in the forums.

Reply #8 Top

Is it because disciples can shoot sideways so you can attack move them in parallel to the target you are chasing? Cant quite do that with LFs as they suffer from Ragnarov shoot from the tip disadvantage.

All LRMs are the same as far as i know.

 

Reply #9 Top

Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 8

Is it because disciples can shoot sideways so you can attack move them in parallel to the target you are chasing? Cant quite do that with LFs as they suffer from Ragnarov shoot from the tip disadvantage.

All LRMs are the same as far as i know.

 

WTF? Sounds like sins- but not the same one I'm playing. 

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 6

LRFs also don't move as fast so they are less likely to "overshoot" targets they are chasing...

It's not like I've gone out and proved this, but I just don't feel there is any difference between cobalts and disciples/skirmishers when it comes to this problem...if someone is up for testing it and decisively proving it one way or another, I'd be up for seeing those results...

My experiences tell me though that you will have this problem with all LFs and all HCs...looking at the files doesn't suggest cobalts would be any different either (though that's not proof in its own right)...

if you put an attack target from any frigate on a target that is moving you get odd behavior like this. Faster targets like LF overshoot their targets while LRF will start to stop to fire. In both cases the ships will have to accelerate again with possible turning. 

Corvettes suffer similar issues though they have weapons on all four banks.

Illuminators are just as frustrating when they slow acceleration to fire on a fleeing ship. Side beams don't compensate as the won't be in range unless you are microing all off their movement. 

 

 

Reply #11 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 9

WTF? Sounds like sins- but not the same one I'm playing. 

 

I frankly am confuddled by Seleucia and Zombie's comments... I thought this problem was common knowledge among players... It almost seems like we are playing a different game. Maybe singleplayer and multiplayer are different?

And I have personally never seen cobalts OVERSHOOT their targets... Just barely get in range for one volley and decelerate...

 

Reply #12 Top

Double post

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 11


Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 9
WTF? Sounds like sins- but not the same one I'm playing. 

 

I frankly am confuddled by Seleucia and Zombie's comments... I thought this problem was common knowledge among players... It almost seems like we are playing a different game. Maybe singleplayer and multiplayer are different?

And I have personally never seen cobalts OVERSHOOT their targets... Just barely get in range for one volley and decelerate...

 

maybe you should play multiplayer sometime then. 

Reply #14 Top

I do... I predominately play multiplayer  ;)

Reply #15 Top

There are 2 things you can do when chasing a fleeing ship...

One is to actually select the fleeing ship as a target....it is quite common for fast moving ships like LFs and HCs (technically flak and corvettes too, but who cares about them) to literally overshoot their target...it can happen to both fleeing ships and stationary targets (like SBs and targets holding position), though it usually only occurs with targets that recently slowed down (like a ship getting ready to phase jump)...this results in your ships having to turn to actually face their target (since they flew slightly past it)...I have this happen with all 3 factions' LFs and HCs...it occasionally happens with illuminators but that's not very common...it is not a consistent behavior but it happens enough to be very annoying...

The other option is to constantly give move orders to the location right behind the fleeing target....this usually prevents the chasers from overshooting, but you can sometimes get strange behavior if you don't keep your micro up...I do this when my ships are going to be covering a lot of ground for the chase since that seems to be the situations they are most likely to overshoot...you have to be careful that you don't let the ships actually get to their move location or they'll piddle around trying to get into formation....if the fleeing ship doesn't have to go very far, it's better to just pick it as a target since your ships aren't going to overshoot...

This problem is common knowledge and has been complained about before, but it applies to all faster moving frigates (LFs tend to be the most noticeable since you have them almost every game and they only fire from one bank)...the most problematic unit actually is the Kodiak if you get interception on it, but you don't commonly see that...

 

Reply #16 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 15

There are 2 things you can do when chasing a fleeing ship...

One is to actually select the fleeing ship as a target....it is quite common for fast moving ships like LFs and HCs (technically flak and corvettes too, but who cares about them) to literally overshoot their target...it can happen to both fleeing ships and stationary targets (like SBs and targets holding position), though it usually only occurs with targets that recently slowed down (like a ship getting ready to phase jump)...this results in your ships having to turn to actually face their target (since they flew slightly past it)...I have this happen with all 3 factions' LFs and HCs...it occasionally happens with illuminators but that's not very common...it is not a consistent behavior but it happens enough to be very annoying...

The other option is to constantly give move orders to the location right behind the fleeing target....this usually prevents the chasers from overshooting, but you can sometimes get strange behavior if you don't keep your micro up...I do this when my ships are going to be covering a lot of ground for the chase since that seems to be the situations they are most likely to overshoot...you have to be careful that you don't let the ships actually get to their move location or they'll piddle around trying to get into formation....if the fleeing ship doesn't have to go very far, it's better to just pick it as a target since your ships aren't going to overshoot...

This problem is common knowledge and has been complained about before, but it applies to all faster moving frigates (LFs tend to be the most noticeable since you have them almost every game and they only fire from one bank)...the most problematic unit actually is the Kodiak if you get interception on it, but you don't commonly see that...

 

Read my OP again Seleucia... explains why this doesn't work and why the problem exclusively affects cobalts and not other light frigates...

Reply #17 Top

Me and Zombie understand what you are saying...you claim that TEC LF's have this problem while the other 2 factions don't...

What we're saying is what we observe, which is that none of the ships have this problem you describe...what we observe is that ships tend to overshoot, which is (I would think) the exact opposite of what you are experiencing...if we are seeing ships overshooting all the time, then we cannot simultaneously see them stop right after getting in range and not doing anything as those would be contradictory observations...

There is another issue where ships in the middle of combat will do 90 to 180 degree turns, then turn back to face the enemy...this plagues LRFs the most though, not LFs, and it occurs in stagnant battles where the fleets are slugging it out, not while ships are pursing targets...

Reply #18 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 2
On a scale of 1-10, disciples/skirmishers have it 2 and cobalts 9.

You don't know what you are talking about... all frigates behave the same way. 

I have no idea why you are imagining TEC LF behave differently from any other. 

Considering your MP experience is no more vast than mine I can only assume it's a lack of experience with the actual game.

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 17
Me and Zombie understand what you are saying...you claim that TEC LF's have this problem while the other 2 factions don't...

What we're saying is what we observe, which is that none of the ships have this problem you describe...what we observe is that ships tend to overshoot, which is (I would think) the exact opposite of what you are experiencing

Sorta... I've noted both behaviors. Overshooting targets and stopping to shoot targets. The majority of skilled players compensate by microing ships to move in the direction of a fleeing target without explicitly targeting it.

 

 

Reply #19 Top

How is stopping to shoot targets a problem?  Isn't that what you want ships to do, stop and shoot at their target instead of overshooting it?

Reply #20 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 18




You don't know what you are talking about... all frigates behave the same way. 

I have no idea why you are imagining TEC LF behave differently from any other. 

Considering your MP experience is no more vast than mine I can only assume it's a lack of experience with the actual game.

I have played around over ~200 multiplayer games in the past 5 months... 150 of those being Tec. It is definitely not lack of experience... I have never seen you online (might be because of different name) so I don't understand where your coming from...

Seleucia- The problem is when the cobalts stop to shoot, they decelerate. It takes time to accelerate again... usually around a few seconds, which can mean the difference. If they overshoot it, they are at least farther to the target's destination then if they stopped, so they dont have to fully decelerate.

At this point I think a 3rd party has to jump in and back one of us up...

Reply #21 Top

I got some screenshots.

Make sure to watch all of them in order:

Cobalts- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/6lqx.jpg/

Disciples- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/3wu3.jpg/

I think this proves my argument... the cobalts are clearly doing some sort of Indian war dance; the disciples in contrast are neatly packed together, always staying in close proximity to the marza and shooting at it.

So much for having no idea what I am talking about...

Reply #22 Top

Quoting JinglyGoo, reply 8
Is it because disciples can shoot sideways so you can attack move them in parallel to the target you are chasing?

disciples don't have side lasers  :|

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 21
I think this proves my argument... the cobalts are clearly doing some sort of Indian war dance; the disciples in contrast are neatly packed together, always staying in close proximity to the marza and shooting at it.

A Marza has a max speed of 525.

A Prog has a max speed of 450.

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 21
So much for having no idea what I am talking about...

The only noteable difference between a disciple and a cobalt is a cobalt has formation rank of 0 while a disciple is 1.

They have the exact same weapon range and speed and nominal difference in durability and dps (balanced by supply).

Unless you want to say their mesh is an altering component there just isn't much for real differences between the two entities.

 

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Sinkillr, reply 20
I have played around over ~200 multiplayer games in the past 5 months... 150 of those being Tec. It is definitely not lack of experience... I have never seen you online (might be because of different name) so I don't understand where your coming from...

I don't play online as ZombiesRus5

 

Reply #24 Top

Would the formation rank do anything to affect ship behavior in these circumstances?

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 24
o

Well it does modify the formation range of groups or freets of units. This would actually put the cobalt at the front of a fleet.

Why it is 0 I don't know as this the formation rank of Heavies.