What? Why? HARD is for a difficult challenge - if you want to teach someone the ropes of the game, easy AI is what you are looking for. I wouldn't complain that they are too hard if you are playing on hard in the first place. If you don't want a challenge, go for easy.

I for one am happy that the AI is tougher now. Actually, I like all of the changes made in Beta 2. Especially the buff to Wail - it was useless with Beta 1.

But I completely agree - it is a bit insane now to go the diplomacy route when everybody is so far into the negatives at the start of a match - I say that the racial and loyalist/rebel relationship penalties need to be significantly lowered to make diplomacy viable in FFA. And the supply cost of envoys reduced. And the cost of diplomacy research reduced. Then I will be appeased.

Basically the whole diplomatic system needs to be changed, it is not working well in almost any field.. I guess not many important research (and fulfilling their requirements) is cost-effective at this time there.. Online noone use diplomacy, only the resource giving thing and the Truce among rogues.. nothing else.. this shows how good diplomacy is in Sins.

I always play on a 6-player-map with all races(loyalist and rebel) and all AIs are cruel. The teams are all unlocked and no alliance to begin with. Each time, the start is very difficult, but after the beginning it's a super match and makes a lot of fun. And i think the diplomacy works great. I get a lot of requests for trade relationship and after some time, i get an offer for peace. After that, it is easy to form a good alliance with them. And it's not so important, if the AI is rebel or loyalist, as long as you don't rush the Ai^^ And it happens very often, that the AIs are forming peace or alliances among themselves.

Sry for my english, but english is not my native language.

There is absolute no problem with your english, actually better than many native english speaker's..

Well with that -10 penatly it is hard to convince the AI to be your ally, as it destroys your enyovs at every of his worlds..

Diplomacy is bad among humans.. Envoys cost too much in the way of money and supply.. You can decide, fleet or ennvoys, guess wich is better.. And the pacts, most of them are too late to get, and doesnt really have a hhuge impact on the game. Most of the times you are better off doing your job solo, only helping your ally militarily..

I agree, and huge random FFA's are my preferred mode of play.  Plus I might agree with his remark regarding researching all diplomacy tech, but I'm talking about getting hit really early with large fleets even on normal very early, with huge fully fleshed out fleets within a couple hours even on normal.  If I invested everything I had in diplomacy that early, I'd have no way to defend myself because I wouldn't be able to invest in warfare nor economy.  My argument is not that the AI is too hard period.  My argument is the AI is too hard and too aggressive for their corresponding levels of difficulty.  And for someone like my friend who's still wrapping his head around the economics, the research, the defenses and starbase, where and when to buy what and trying to experiment with tactics of his own, he's just not getting that chance because of how relentless the AI is right now on normal and hard.  I primarily use normal to teach friends to play the game.  I put it on hard to give them a challenge and get them used to being hit more often and to learn to adapt to changing circumstances.  Then I typically play at the unfair setting as that difficulty gives the best balance with considerable challenge on good changing circumstances and adaptation requirements.  The AI as it stands right now, completely throws that out of whack.

In my opinion, diplomacy shouldn't be an option to be safe in the beginning. If you need an ally at the beginning, just take an AI in your team and play with unlock teams. Diplomacy works great in mid-game and endgame if you play against the AI.

But i agree with the rest of your post. The best AI would be a cruel or vicious Ai, who is less strongly at the beginning. As for myself, i can't win alone against an cruel or vicious AI, if i'm not go straight for the titan or if i have to defend more than one or two planets. That means, that i can't expand and build up my economy at the beginning. The conclusion is, that the match takes more time and the real fight at eye level starts in mid-game. Bye-bye you beautiful start phase  :'(

But the AI on normal, hard or unfair in mid- or endgame sucks~

I wonder about the graphical improvement to lightning/shadowing. Is it going to be a part of the final 1.50 release?

If you have problems with normal or hard ai, you may need to read about some strategies online, but nvm, diplomacy, so yes, if you are under attack you will never be at peace with the attacker due to the penalty of killing ships, and you wont have enough money to research diplomatic stuff.. vicious circle

No, this has been postponed for a future update.

Doesn't really concern me because I don't have the time to dedicate to online gaming, so your point is completely irrelevant from my POV.

Besides, the Kostura doesn't need a buff. Deliverance Engine does. The Advent are basically bringing a water gun to a nuke fight...literally. The Deliverance needs something that will make it worthwhile and justify the trouble to build it. Right now, the effects of the Deliverance Engine are even hysterical compared to the Temple of Communion. If the Temple of Communion has a better effect than the Deliverance Engine, that's a problem.

You know the deliverance engine got a big buff last patch right?

And it's still nowhere as useful as Novalith/Kostura. A planet with a 50 population with a Temple of Communion parked right next to an enemy planet is far more useful. If Deliverance did what Temple of Communion does, then everything would be peachy.

It doesn't matter for me...if I abandon ICO, it will be for modding and friendly MP...either way, it's a time sink....

Sorry but I have to ask:

Is there some reason why corvettes are essentially immune to the most powerful titan attacks the vasari can field?  To me, this is akin to Stardock re-introducing the seeker spam "i win" button from the early days of Entrenchment.  Now all anyone has to do is spam corvettes and they can take down titans?  If my titan is able to even level up that high, I expect its special attacks to pound everyone into the dirt.

Corvettes, in large numbers, have always been intended as a counter to Titans, but they were less effective against Vasari Titans due to being affected by the above abilities.  Corvettes have somewhat taken the role that Seeker spam used to fill, but they are a lot easier to destroy than Seekers were back in the day.  While corvette + frigate spam can be effective early game, corvettes become a lot less useful towards late game, with the exception of raiding or hunting down unescorted Titans.

Its nice that there is an option to attack that is hit and run and not an all-out assault, it makes a player have to pay attention.

Corvettes are immune to every other titan ability that does damage. The Vasari not falling into the category was yet another huge advantage they didn't need. I think titans are more than powerful enough that its okay for them to rely on their normal weapons for one kind of enemy.

You are getting this increase only on the planet the starbase resides.

Now, if you calculate tax income and ressource income per minute before building the - expensive - starbase and then compare it to the tax and resource income after the upgrade you will notice that your total income is only minorly affected.

As Tax and extaction values are rather low numbers to start with, the 30 % increase needs a lot of time to pay itself of.

Especially if you had to use black market for metal or crystal.

100 Metall = 450 Credits on average

100 Crystal = 450 Credtis on average (assumming it is not on high demand, as it often is).

If you take all this costs together and divide them trough the increase in tax and extraction, you will have said 18 minutes.

Nope, they shouldnt.

Advent culture is no more dangerous than TEC or Vasari culture. As such, building more culture centers makes no sense at all. Now consider that Advent have worst economy and you can see why Advent need trade ports above all.

Besides.... the ammount of culture centers to STOP a capital ship heavy Vasari late game fleet is INSANE. You need to solely build culture centers arround all adjacent planets..... and scuttle anything you have build there so far. To loose research labs and trade ports is highly annoying and costly.

If you want Vasari to stay FIRST in military, you have to agree that their economy is nerfed down to THIRD and not currently second only to the TEC.

The Vasari were meant as a Gurrelia Faction.... good ships but LOWER numbers of them.

Guess what... the Vasari carrier cost the same as TEC or Advent carrier in fleet supply..... similar to most other ships.

The fleet supply cost for Vasari is only minorly higher than for the other races, add a few special resarches and it actually lower.

You cannot have second best eco, first in military, best abilitys and best of dirty tricks all together and stay balanced.

It is simple impossible.

Telecinetic push is highly ineffective against Vasari Bombers.... they are more than durable enough to withstand its damage and so you at best buy yourself 30 second delay.... and that is not enough.....

Yes fighters do counter bombers.... BUT only over time..... Fighters dont do anything against the first 10 - 20 bomber volleys...... which means that your Titan + capitalships = goodbye.

If it worked for you, you never faced large numbers of bombers, especially not phase missile ones.

Because TEC expulsed the advent 1000 years ago and they have been a trip of revenge ever since then.

The Vasari on the other hand, are on the RUN... fleeing from their own destruction. They should be a gurellia faction that can only win by using dirty tricks...... but right now they can STEAMROLL everything without dirty tricks....... and with dirty tricks they are unstoppable.

The reality is, that culture is worthless as a mean to win you the game. If Advent player does not "neglect" culture, he will be steamrolled even by TEC.

Culture is far to easy countered to make it viable in any way.

Advent culture would need a tremendous buff and would need devastating consquences for enemies to be of any value...... and that would probably require an rebalancing of the entire game.

We dont speak about giving things up... we merely speak about toning them down to reasonable levels, so that non Vasari player can ejoy the game, too.

Balancing the Varsi VS Advent matchup can only contain minor buffs to the Advent or buffs that only help Advent agaisnt Vasari (Phase Missile Block for example).

If you give Advent a good economy.... they will steamroll TEC.... while still being helpless against Vasari.... so this does nto solve any problems.

Since Phase Missiles are by far the most important reason why Advent suck VS Vasari.... I really dont see any disadvantages in giving them a considerable nerf in combination with Advent Phase Missile block technology that does more than add 2 seconds of survial to their important ships.

 @ Developers:

Please consider: 

• a phase missile nerf - especially on the bombers
• Phase Missile block technology for the Advent coming with the shield researches.
• A hard nerf to the Disruptor Nanites on the Vasari Missile Platform... 5 minutes duration is incredible OP.

Thank you.

And you are OK with that? Obviously yes, as your suggestions are related to Vasari and nerfs to them, regardless of the fact, they have nothing to do with culture being worthless.

Buffing Advent will cause TEC serious trouble, so for obvious balance reasons the Vaasari should be weakened somewhat, not to be the strongest military, best dirty tricks and second economic faction.. My vote is on weakening their military severely, their dirty tricks would compensate them for it, and Vasari lovers would not lose their favourite toys like the OP titans or the other dirty stuff that is unbalanced when having the best fleet in the game.. But I doubt Vasari will be further balanced before Sins2..

TEC VS Advent is balanced.

Vasari VS Advent is not.

So balancing Vasari logically involves nerfing them.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

So...any word when the final version is coming out? I kinda figured it would be on the day the DLC releases, I dunno. I might try the beta again, but the AI seems to crush me even on Normal in the beta for some reason.

4th of june. AI is quite difficult now, dont know about normal, but on Hard its income advantage is quite obvious. I just played small comp stomp game with my buddies against 3 Hard AIs and 2 of us tried to take one AI out early. It took quite a some time as he managed to produce as much units as we 2 had combined.

Or i played another game lately, 2 vs 2 hard AIs and won it after six hours only cause we played Capital Victory and i played Vasari Loyalists and went fully mobile, which turned to be unsolvable for the AI.  They tried though and i had to rebuild my fleet several times after they threw everything they had against me. My buddy ended steamrolled and there was nothing i could do about that. 

That said, i dont complain. At least its a challenge. But i dont want to even know what are Cruel and Vicious like. They have to be unbeatable. 

@ Aresiv> You did not answer my question. Or perhaps you did indirectly. I have to wonder then, why did you choose Advent as your faction of choice, if it does not bother you that its main supposed strength is in your opinion worthless. I would be lively if the Vasari mobility was just a useless gimmick and would require a fix. Did you just fancied the look of their ships the most?

aries4 u are forgetting something ELSE about advent eco. namely. there trade ports do double duty. the increase extractor rate AND do trade. seems damn nice to me. 

also vasari do have fewer numbers. all their ships (minus caps and titan) eat more fleet supply. i personally think they should MASSIVELY buff the vasari. but everything is ungodly expensive. o you want a cap? that will cost as much as a titan

think 4 times stronger  6 times cost increase on everything. if u haven't already. go play SOA 2 and pick borg. they should make them like that.

"Balancing the Varsi VS Advent matchup can only contain minor buffs to the Advent or buffs that only help Advent agaisnt Vasari (Phase Missile Block for example)"

they DO have phase missile block. go look at their culture upgrades.

"

uess what... the Vasari carrier cost the same as TEC or Advent carrier in fleet supply..... similar to most other ships.

The fleet supply cost for Vasari is only minorly higher than for the other races, add a few special resarches and it actually lower."

IDK where u are getting the carrier cost increase difference from but you are wrong. advent carrier is 20 fleet supply. VAS 12 or 14 cant remmeber off the top of my head. personally i HATE strike craft and use them onlyto defend against strike craft.

evern though the advent carrier cost 20 fleet supply they have 3 squadrons instead of 2. and more fighter per squadron. 

"

Telecinetic push is highly ineffective against Vasari Bombers.... they are more than durable enough to withstand its damage and so you at best buy yourself 30 second delay.... and that is not enough.....

Yes fighters do counter bombers.... BUT only over time..... Fighters dont do anything against the first 10 - 20 bomber volleys...... which means that your Titan + capitalships = goodbye.

If it worked for you, you never faced large numbers of bombers, especially not phase missile ones."

i have lots of time and as a well they vasari bomber will withstand the push. there are fewer bomber in a squadron. 3 bomber if i recall correctly. but they are HIGH QUALITY unlike advent who have i think 7 per squadron and they are made of paper machete like all advent ships. 

"The Vasari on the other hand, are on the RUN... fleeing from their own destruction. They should be a gurellia faction that can only win by using dirty tricks...... but right now they can STEAMROLL everything without dirty tricks....... and with dirty tricks they are unstoppable."

they ARE using dirty tricks arent they? according to you. MAW, PHASE MISSISLES. 

but seriously i think the massive buff tho VAS but make them ungodly expensive would be way nicer. and as a way to counter act feeding (which is noob as hell and why i dont play 5s anymore) they only get half the money that is sent to them.