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[general balance] in depth analysis of weapons (updated .981)

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[general balance] in depth analysis of weapons (updated .981)

from Elemental Forums

it seems after a long time in the beta weapons are still wip

lets examine them in details


bows

after a long time last patch changed them, i like the direction they are taking, they seem decent to good early game, and "working" later

-champions: every assassin and archer is hard to judge but surely its improved, maybe not the best option but seems decent

-troops: one of the best options, ranged for weak troops save  build time and provide good dmg early and mid game

cant say exactly if they are balanced but they are improved

after .981 troops with bow cost way less and so they are pretty good

 

daggers

still very bad

basically they are weaker swords

crit only works if stacked, thats a huge con

-champions: only viable high level with all crit traits and other items so basically only for assassins, and still probably best sword provide more dmg

-troops: daggers will never work on troop

 

swords

the best right now

every champion melee need one, most mages could use one, its a decent option for troops always and they provide initiative and good dmg

-champions: just the best, high initiative and counterattack, you need those

-troops: a decent option always, maybe sometimes you want something with more dmg to go all out but you can also train armored things with swords

-2h: they seem balanced, a lot more dmg but slower id still go with 1h for champion

after .981 shortswords have been balanced but longswords are still too good but they are also a higher tier

 

maces

specilized weapons, good option on troops while less viable on champions

the dmg is slighly higher than swords but they have a HUGE initiative penalty meaning theyll come after swords and with less attacks

the special ability is weak but can have some secondary use

-champions: you never want any of these unless you drop the ones with superhigh dmg or great abilities

-troops: its situational but as source of dps they can work, also special ability become good if stacking these units or end game when dmg is higher and there are larger troops

 

spears

buffed last patch they really needed it

right now they are still weak overall

-champions: spears are useless early cause enemies dont have armor, the only situation i find them viable is when fighting a hard hitting counterattack enemy

-troops: sometimes good cause of armor piercing and decent dmg

 

axes

still weak, backswing like every other ability is inferior to counterattack for championsand the initiative and dmg is not superior to swords like it should

-champions you just cant use them

-troops backswing sometimes can be handy but against too many things the backswing attack is just dodge like the normal, basically backswing is good when enemy dont have dodge lol

-2h axes: for some reason they dont have initiative malus but they are not light, the dmg is not really that high compared to 1h so they are not really a good option compared to 1h

 

maul

they basically are maces 2h but at least balanced

you have low init but you are rewarded for it having a HUGE attack dmg, probably the higher of the game, that also make bash not useless too

-champions: the damage makes up for the maluses, you probably cant afford it always but sometimes having such a dmg could work

-troops: its a choice but troops has to deal dmg b4dying so this is a good option in some case

 

 

theorycrafting: why EVERYTHING is inferior to counterattack

 

basically counterattack is 1 more attack each turn so basically 100% bonus dps (or 1/n bonus if you have n champions with counterattack (even though you could still place champions to tank each 1 enemy and use all counterattacks))

 

lets examine bash

bash if working make the opponent lose a turn

this means the MINIMUM to make it even with counterattack is 50 dmg

but this only applies 1 v1

if enemies are n 50 bash just means 1/n enemy dps

so basically to get in pair with counterattack you need to have 50*n dmg and you get why bash is so incredibly inferior to anything

ofc there is one exception where fighting with high number a solo creature (like a boss/dragon or so)

they are usually immune to bash but if they arent its possible to havewith 5 6 troops with bash a number making it worth if not to reduce incoming dmg

anyway its just a non real situation

also dont forget swords have good init bonus while maces a malus

(like stated in other posts this is true for monsters or unarmored units, while against firs tiers or armor mace seems to perform similarly as swords, against plate this is true again)

 

lets examine spear

immune to counterattack  is basically the same as having it yourself a choice between attacking both twice per turn and attacking both once

but its the more effective the more your enemy outdmg you

so basically its working for a tank even if thjere is a flaw cause tanks have  a trait to make themselves immune to counter

anyway at least there is some situation where you want a spear

also another flaw is that making a tank immune to counter prevent other melees from attacking the enemy

 

lets examine axes

backswin basically provides an additional attack when miss

so if acc = real accuracy it has a 100-acc chance to make another attack with acc chance to hit

you can see the flaw in this, basically the more accurate you are the less it procs, on the other hadn the less accurate you are the more it procs but with less effect being the backswing inaccurate

anyway as pure math its still far inferior to 100% bonus of counterattack usually you tend to have accuracy in the order of80 90 so backswing is 1/5 to 1/10 as primary melee while being a good addition for additional dps (but stilll dont forget base axe stats ARENT better than swords)

 

 

 

42,808 views 82 replies
Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting MiamiBigAL, reply 76
Okay, how about this logic:

A very old game has managed to implement focus-fire AI, from a non-professional amateur modder with a day job.  Therefore, it is safe to assume that it does not take a leap of faith to believe a professional game designer, 15 years later, can do at least the SAME thing.

Note that the tactical battle systems of both games are virtually identical.

 

 

 

man this game is soooo much complex

also mom had 3 1.44 disk of code and  tactical battles are like 3434324 times complicated in FE

 

also not to say but a modder can do whatever he wants, devs need to focus on what make the game better on average and this can or cannot be making focus fire ai and stuff like that, there may be other priorities unfortunately

Reply #77 from Elemental Forums Top

So how do people think attack bonuses from traits should be handled? I would say no more than a maximum of +3 should be gained from 3 traits. Anything more and you are breaking the armor balance.

Elemental: Reforged
Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

The game is really missing traits that MoM had.  First Strike.  Flying.  Trample. 

also having certain weapons be slightly more effective vs. those types also mounted and heroes.  FWIW, we don't have a summon hero or champion spell either.

I don't really have a problem with the traits as they are now.  Never thought about finesses/brute in that way since it hard to imagine a direct impact. Guess you could make it so they're mutually exclusive.  Can't choose one if you already have the other.  If something had to be done about it. 

 

I also notice that if you have a ranged or magic ranged (bow or staff) ,  lethal didn't seem to do diddly.  But a melee weapon holding champion sees his number go up 2 points and be green.  So either bug or need something for those types.

 

Also some traits are just too OP for champions.  I like path of defender but dang they can make a tank into uber tank.  Complete immunities to criticals and counterattacks.  C'mon here.  At the most should just reduce it by 50%. Same for being able to stack resistances to 100%.  Could be capped somewhere lower.  Complete immunity is god like.

The auto defend thing is whack, since anyone wearing any kind of shield already has something like that already.   Part of reason why I still push for just slightly more attack values on 2nd tier weapons and above.  The shield bonus to defending is more profound at every tier. 

Reply #79 from Elemental Forums Top

And adding to auto-defend is a human advantage. It totally screws over the AI, besides the more complicated balance problems. I am guilty of adding it in large amounts to PathoftheKnight, but that is much later in the game and there are ways to break armor in my version. Something like that is needed or just teach the AI to defend.

Reply #80 from Elemental Forums Top

Why is it human only?  Do other AI not choose traits when making units?  Can't we just increase it's importance so it values that more and uses it ?

Reply #81 from Elemental Forums Top


Interesting, there seems to be far more the game then I realised.

I just hope it can change to make it worth something.

I actually agree with the OP analysis. Why?

Because I dont know what the armor EVEN DOES! I never built nor fight against plate or even chain. I have my heros to fight with. A sword is the BEST weapon by far becuase it doubles my combat power, I get 2 attacks instead of one. I am always outnumbered, and so counter attack is always powerful for me. IF i fight a mega character I usually have random super magic weapon (so its whatever i find) and have lots of magic. So say blunt v cut is not that relevant for that.

I have been force making troops recently and I have always magic weaponed them. In that case it is often the magic that matters to me. ie I like lighting hammers for the level adjusted attacking, not the bash or blunt, as I nurse maid them and keep them safe so they last a long time.

So i get why say bash is useful in an ideal world. But not in the current game, you can argue that is no reason to change swords but a reason to fix the game. But you assume that it will get fixed. If not it may be easier to adjust weapon stats.

 

Reply #82 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Supreme, reply 81
Why is it human only?

 

All AI units are predesigned. The cool thing is that it uses your designs too. Of course if you never play a given faction, their units tend to suck. Which causes you to not want to play them. It's a good idea to play through each faction and make every combination of good unit you can think of. Helps the AI out alot. Of course, the devs have been better about updating unit design, but they tend to make subpar units. They don't seem to be aware of the exploits and efficiency calculations. Perhaps this thread will help.