My point remains: there's a use for maces, fighting armored enemies. And I can assure you they're better than swords at doing this.

And they're less good than spears, but let you use a shield and are better at fighting unarmored troops than spears. So basically, maces are between swords and spears, a sort of compromise.

There is of course some truth in this, I just won't use them, since everytime I have used them it have been a total waste of time, so I hope they get worthwhile at some point.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

How do we add magic into the conversation? Dodge is the best way for a unit to avoid staff damage. Elemental resistance is the best way to avoid staff and spell damage. This part of the game is drastically in need of balance. So much so that I am loath to talk about it in this thread. It makes all the work we do in balancing weapons pointless (excuse the pun).

Spell Resistance should be the key to staff and spell defense. Elemental Resistance should be something that magic tree researchers get to get really immune to magic. The default stats for mastery and resistance to magic need to start at 20 and get +2 per level. That would allow for a more interesting balance between the two stats and the potential power of magical damage. 

Anyone have a new take on this?

In general I would like to see weapons do more damage.   As far as balancing weapon types though.  I hate to hear the word nerf at all.  Counter attack is the best cause others don't stack up well against it you say.  I would argue Maul is king.  Then Bash is second.

As to possible suggestions -

*Piercing weapons such as spears and pikes doing double damage to mounted units. Criticals could cause even more damage.

(other ability to put on weapons )

*Parry - chance to deflect 1 attack / turn based on attack value.

*Riposte - Attacking unit chooses to forgo any attack giving it a chance to block 1 attack, and then land a hit of its own with a small increase to damage.

*unhorse - has chance to remove defender from a mount.

*Knockoiut - 80% reduced damage and causes Dazed. Also has a chance to add on blind / confused / cursed.

*Heavy Haft -add weight of weapon to damage rolls.

*Masterwork weapons are lighter weapons than one of regular craft.

*not sure about ranged and magical range, but they could seriously use 2 more tiers and/or bumps in damage.  Great when you get, but effectiveness decrease over time.

Not true; since attack vs. defense does not scale linearly, 2x6 of a dagger would be more effective against low armour and high dodge compared to a 1x12 sword (both do 12dmg vs. zero defense, but 2x attacks of a dagger make it more likely to land at least some damage, and more likely to crit, effectively increasing your accuracy), but it would quickly become less effective against higher armour (4.5dmg vs. 6.5dmg at 10 defense). This sounds like a good spot for a dagger.

I actually quite like this suggestion to replace the dagger initiative bonus, as long as the two attacks are treated as a single action. Basically, a dagger uses double-strike ability on every hit, which makes them useful against low armour and high dodge troops without giving a bonus to mages.

Two counters combined with the removal of 4 initiative isn't too much, as long as we keep the specials away from counter attacks. This means counter attacks should not apply double-strike, and counter attacks should never crit.

 [Edit: Other suggestions]

-Making daggers piercing so that chain's cutting bonus doesn't apply would be nice.

-"Defend" action with a dagger should add +1 counterattack for one round, instead of defense.

They are also heavier and reduce initiative by 4. Compare that to a sword that increases it by 2-4. 8 initiative makes a huge difference.

It would be awesome on so many levels if instead of being prone immune mounted units that were knocked down became unhorsed for the rest of combat. Oh well.

At this point I'd take even having every weapon type be useful let alone every weapon. Hell I'd take their even being working weapon paths for most weapons. Only spears, bows, and clubs really have upgrade paths right now at all.

From a statistic point of view, this is simply not true. If I have 50% chance to hit:

With 2 dagger attacks dealing 6 damage, I have an average of .25 * 12 + .5 * 6 + .25 * 0 = 6 damage (respectively, 25% chance of 2 successful attacks, 25% chance of 2 misses, and .5 chances of 1 miss and one success).

With 1 sword attack dealing 12 damage, I have an average of .5 * 12 = 6 damage.

Strictly equivalent. Daggers suck.

A base spell resistance of 20 would be equal to a base dodge of 20 and i think that would make the combat only longer, because more spells miss and because of the same reason the base spell mastery should not be reduced to 20.

Maybe not 20 and 20. Maybe 20 SR and 30 SM. On top of that staves should be adding modifiers and traits should be offering bonuses. The unit designs are almost totally absent any good mage traits because resistance and mastery are not interwoven into the core battle mechanics. My staves on tier one have no initiative penalty, and add either resistance or mastery. They do 6 damage, so you are unlikely to get that many hits, but you have several strikes and will get very strong with magic buffs and curses. I guess Derek would need to fit the numbers into his balance, but the overall concept is pretty decent compared to dodging staves but not spells. 

You are quite correct, my phrasing was very imprecise

Expected value of the damage output is the same, but the distribution is different, so in a multi-round encounter a sword is more of a gamble against high dodge opponents while a dagger will chip away at them more slowly but surely. Perhaps not very significant, but there are situations where doing less damage earlier is better than missing a few times before a massive hit — for example when applying poison, quite appropriately, or when a first-strike crit, even at half power, is enough to cripple your opponent by removing a significant number of group members. You can exaggerate this effect by giving daggers n attacks at 1/n power; death by a thousand cuts.

So far, these sound like two different weapons, both with situational advantages.

However, and you'd have to tweak the numbers to make it work, it is easy to make two lower-value attacks do even better expected damage output against low defense while a single higher attack remains better against armour, due to non-linear damage scaling. I am sure this is exactly the reason behind the damage formula.

Let me try my hand at maths again:

50% to hit zero defense:

2x7  -> 0.5 * 14 = 7 expected damage
1x12 -> 0.5 * 12 = 6 expected damage

50% to hit 10 defense:

2x7  -> 0.5 * 5.75 = 2.88 expected damage
1x12 -> 0.5 * 6.5 =  3.25 expected damage

I believe my main point stands: this mechanic could add to melee weapon variety and make daggers competitive, if situational, while at the same time making it unnecessary for mages to run around with daggers.

yeah but my point on attacking twice wasnt about number

it was about game mechanics

what difference does it make if you call it "attack twice" instead of just buffing the main number?

its totally equivalent from a gameplay point of view apart that there are minimal difference in numbers outcome in few situations

but it would be just a sword with a different rng

i want weapons to have gameplay difference much more profound

so daggers should do something else

in my modded games im trying something new (for fe but old for other games) that is bleeding, a dot dmg based on weapon, hp of enemy (this might be too good against dragons and hard stuff, maybe i have to give dragons bleed immune or something) traits (so  i have other options to develop assassin champions)

This. I am tired of sticking quick on all my ranged units.

A huge one. Attacking with a dagger fails already on leather. Attacking with a sword, not so much.

I don't see "weak against any sort of armor starting with level" to be a "few situations".

A lot of good ideas in this thread, I liked the idea of available weapons (daggers) with double attack, that would just FEEL cool!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Two attacks at low damage do crap against good armor. A higher attack means great armor penetration. It also looks really cool. ^^

My Mod:

This would be good for a dagger in the hands of an Assassin, who wants to deal several poisons and thus needs several strikes. 

I'm thinking that pretty soon we're going to have to bring up the "positive initiative modifiers on weapons" issue again. 

This really breaks many on the game's other mechanics, if you ask me.

you just cant follow

whats the difference between giving 2 attacks with low dmg and 1 attack with more dmg, STILL WITH A DAGGER

gameplay doesnt change

you click

and see dmg

if that comes from 2 attack or just once is the same

its all irrelevant

what matters is the special ability a weapon handle and stuff like that

One attack with high damage is doing more damage against armor. So daggers are better against lightly armored units with two attacks. A Dagger with one attack would be better against highly armored units. The difference is how they scale with defense values.

I will probably stick to extra counterattacks in my mod though. I am thinking axes need double strike and backswing. I don't want daggers to play the same as axes. Also, the ax will get -5 Initiative after 3 turns, so the unit seems to be tired out after a few of these brutal attacks. 

Backswing is a poorly implemented mechanic and you should wait until they polish it (or ditch it entirely).

And by polish, I mean make it work like it should work: every soldier who fails his attack roll gets a reroll. (Right now, they only get a reroll if they ALL fail, which is unlikely for groups.)

All the extra counterattacks is one of the reasons I actually didn't like your mod

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

i would just pick THE damage that would make it equal to 2 attacks... you cant say its more or less, i pick the one equal...

but ok, ofc the scaling would be slightly different, but how can you consider a different scaling a fix to daggers?

also again i dont care of numbers, i care about gameplay, 2 attacks is totally pointless and unfun, its a just a more complex calculation to do the same thing: plain dmg, maybe dual wielding then would be acceptable, at least you have actually 2 different weapons

 

extracounterattack doesnt make sense for dagger wielder, they are supposed to not get hit cause they are light armored, counterattacking more means just being dead probably

I am confused by you guys not liking counterattacks. This is how I see a counterattack. There are two reasons a unit might justify a counterattack:

1. The weapon you are wielding is capable of striking defensively at close range once an enemy gets close. The dagger is the best example of this. When in battle, the guy with a short weapon can strike quickly but has no reach. So he must rely on the enemy to close in, take a hit and then strike back. This is my justification for high counterattacks on Fending Blade and Daggers.

2. The unit is particularly skilled in martial arts and can turn enemy attacks to his or her own advantage. The basis for having "hero" type units in the game is that they have special abilities that only masters of warfare will ever achieve. A Swashbuckler for instance turns every attack thrown at him to his advantage, which is the only way he survives a battle. He hopes to parry their attacks and strike several more times. He can also handle large crowds of enemies with his clever guises and constant ability to strike back. 

Not saying you have to like it, personal taste and all, but if there is something extremely unbalanced about the damage being done, I am open to suggestions. 

I could talk on about it but I'm in a hurry ATM. so it might be a balance issue it might other stuff. >_< Easier to say when I have the mod installed in front of me, but too many counter-attacks ruins the day IMO.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I don't see a problem with that. The combat is too simplistic and short as it is

This was compiled for 0.980.1, but a quick look at 0.981.1 suggests that the numbers remain the same.

Note that trained troops have 30 weight capacity without traits.  For armors, numbers in parenthesis are weight values.  The "Total" column is the basic defense rating for a full set of that type of armor. Be aware that Champion Plate Armor carries some additional benefits beyond armor rating.

Numbers for most weapons and armor (p = pierce, c = cutting, b = blunt) in 0.980.1 which are available to trainable troops:

Armor Type    Helm        Chest                  Boot        Greaves        Gloves        Total
Leather          1 (2)          3 (5)                  1 (2)         2 (3)            1 (3)          8 (15)
Chain          2+2c (3)    6+6c (6)           2+2c (3)    4+4c (4)    2+2c (4)         16 (20)
MW Chain    4+4c (3)    8+8 c (6)           4+4c (3)    6+6c (4)    4+4c (4)         26 (20)
Light Plate    3+3b (4)    8+8 b (10)        3+3b (4)    5+5b (6)    3+3b (6)         22 (30)
Plate            5+5b (6)    10+10b (12)    5+5b (6)    7+7b (8)    5+5b (8)          32 (40)
Champion    6+6b (6)    11+11b (12)    6+6b (6)    8+8b (8)    6+6b (8)         37 (40)

Altar gets Athican Leather instead of a Leather Cuirass (5 defense, +25% Fire Resist, 5 weight). As such, Altar gets a leather armor set with 10 defense for 15 weight, and can achieve fire-immune trained troops with: Athican Leather, Dragon Hide Cloak, Ring of Embers.  Other factions can achieve 75% fire resistance.

Shields                  Defense       Def while Def'ing    Dodge Bonus          Weight
Wooden                    2                  5                             2                        5
Round                      4                   10                          4                         5
Kite                         6                  15                            6                       10
Tower                      8                   20                           8                       15
Bronze (Krax)          4                    10                    4 (+8 vs ranged)        5
Golem (Gilden)        10                   20                         10                       45

Weapons        Attack    Weight    Hands    Init Bonus    Specials
Spear             7p           10          2             0            Ignore 33% Defense, Immune to Counter
Boar Spear    11p          10           2            0             Ignore 50% Defense, Immune to Counter
Pike               16p          10          2              0           Ignore 66% Defense, Immune to Counter
War Hammer    9b          15          1           -4             Bash
Mace               16b         15           1          -4             Bash
Maul                28b         25          2           -6             Bash
Axe                 9c          10           1           -2             Backswing
Battle Axe       15c         20           2            0             Backswing
Dagger             6c           0           1          +4            +4 Crit Chance, +1 Counter
Shortsword      10c           5           1          +3            +1 Counter
Broadsword     12c          10           1          +2             +1 Counter
Longsword       18c          10          1           0              +1 Counter
Greatsword      21c         20           2           0              +1 Counter
Shortbow         8p          10           2            -8            Ranged
Longbow        10p           10          2           -6             Ranged
Yew Longbow    11p         10         2            -4             Ranged

Altar Weapons
Fending Blade    10c       5             1            +3        +5 dodge, +2 Counter
Athican LS         20c      10            1            +2        +2 Counter

Gilden Weapons
Battle Hammer    11b    15            1             -4        Bash
Sledge                28b    25            1             -4        Bash
War Club              5      10            1              -4        +2 Attack vs Men and Fallen

Tarth Weapons
Heartwood SB    9p        10           2               -6        Ranged
Ithuane LB         11p      10          2                -4        Ranged
Ram's Horn LB    12p     10           2               -2        Ranged, Ignore 50% Defense

Ythril Weapons
Great Axe            21c    20            2               0        Backswing
Trog Battle Axe    15c    20            2               0        Ignore 33% Defense

* Note about Kraxis:  Kraxis replaces the 2-handed spears with 1-handed spears with the same stats.