Question: Preferred capital build order

Dunovs should definitely be in your build order.  They can wipe out AM from an entire fleet as well as restore shields and disable abilities.

Kol

Kol

Kol

Kol

Kol

Kol

Kol

Kol

Kol

....

Kol x16

Dunov's just seem to die too quickly in any kind of real fight.  I have to spend an inordinate amount of time microing repair and retreating them away from the action. 

I usually like to have 5 Kols, 4 dunovs, 2 sovas, 2 marzas and one akkan. Pre-titans I had 2 akkans and 3 sovas. I tend to roll with alot of hoshikos too, somewhere on the magnitude of 40-70. (AI player only =P)

EDIT: I usually build a free Kol and quickly stake out 5-7 planets and turtle for a while until I finish fortifying the border worlds, upgrading the interior logistics slots and planetary updgrades and finish all my research. Then I start building a massive fleet so I go from one battleship to 16 suddenly. 

Two Dunovs can easily keep your fleet alive, not to mention double EMP means no AM for enemy capitals.

Also, Ituhata, you're putting WAY too much stock in Kols (and capitals in general).  You shouldn't have that many Kols.

Don't to listen to him.

I like the big ships. 

My play style (again versus AI only) has always been build a steamroll fleet and go zerg the biggest fleet I can find and pop all their titans capitals and starbases. I don't really know if 2 could keep my fleet alive at all times, I would think with just two ability cooldowns that you'd end up letting something slip through the cracks...in any case, overkill is my motto. =P

I also try to keep the support fleet numbers down to cut down on the lag, I especially try to avoid using mines and strike craft and that's why I never have that many carriers. 

Volt, why the hate against kol's? I love them!(How weird... This not coming from a troll for once) I really do not get the hate against them I for one hate the sova more than anything, I find it 1 of the most useless capitals of the tec, right next to the new capital(Altho it has its good uses I've noticed)

In late game I usually got 6 dunovs, titan, 4 kols, 2 akkans, 2 marza's. Because fuck sova's ;p

Ezeltje, Kols are the worst capitals by far available to the TEC unless you've got an Armament pact with a Vasari ally (the Kol's DPS will go through the roof, particularly if it's level 6+) or have a level 6 Dunov because of Flux Field.  

GRG is bad for anything aside from killing structures or first strikes (but bombers are better for both of those things).  

Flak Burst is powerful but won't do anything to stem the alpha-strike of critical mass bombers, even against Advent bombers.  You need two at minimum to stop them.  Against Vasari SC, it's more or less worthless.  

AFF is good, but only affects the Kol rather than its surrounding fleet and drains from the Kol's already lackluster AM reserves.

Finest Hour is a great ability that goes fantastically with the aforementioned Armament Pact because it allows the Kol to start spewing out DPS at everything around it as well as regenerating the Kol's limited AM reserves.  When combined with the hull regen, you have the third fastest regenerating ship in the game (and also the hardest capital in the game to kill).

The Kol simply isn't that good under most circumstances.  Under some, it is great, but those are few and far between.

As for the Sova, it is perhaps the best early-game capital.  Carriers always have the advantage early-game due to their SC and on top of that, if you can rush your enemy's homeworld, you can Embargo them and handicap them for the rest of the game.

The Corsev is actually extremely powerful.  Demolitions Team is incredibly powerful though isn't OP anymore due to a lack of Corvette swarms that previously reigned supreme.

All the new capital ships are incredibly powerful.. 

The new vasari cap is the overseers big brother with support swarms regenerating hulls at an incredible value along with armor buffs.

 The new advent cap is supreme if you double dragon 2 of them wiith scream and fracture  which ends up making a chastic burst that also disables abilities. 

The corsev  does not die.. it just stinks of op because it feeds off damage..In any battle the corsev will likely be the one that ends up escaping and Its very important to disable its abilities at all times while attacking it. 

just remember the new vasari cap needs just a tiny bit of micro that involves selecting the nanite swarms to follow the fleet  if they are left behind.

Volt, I guess we have to agree that we disagree, altho the kols AM reserves are crap early on, later on the game when it gets it's level a bit up and you get the anti matter research, it is actually stable using everything(Atleast when I use it, which usually means my culture is at that planet thus more regen) + it is great for taking down frigs/cruisers on land so your colony frig can come in instantly. and the sova...I dislike it because it can't take out any planet that has a flak frig effectivly, because 3/4 SC vs 1 flak means all your SC is dead and he is still happy and alive. 

Idk, but those are just my experiences so far...

Ezeltje, Volt knows what he's talking about. The Kol has been the laughing stock of the TEC capitalship line up for a long time (The Dunov used to share that spot but with titans EMP and Shield Regenerate became a lot more useful). Thats why competitive players like Mecha-Lenin up there find it hilarious that so many newish players like using them, and try to troll them into thinking they're good.

When it comes right down to it, until you get finest hour the Kol absolutely sucks except as a last ditch effort at countering mass bombers. Gauss Rail Gun becomes ridiculously inefficient thanks to shield mitigation, so its usually not worth the antimatter to power it very long. Flak burst is great, though it takes a while for strike craft swarms to become large enough for it to really shine, and if your opponent is blowing them up in one pass you might need several to blow them up. Adaptive force field is rarely worth the antimatter save as a last ditch escape measure, and if nothing else the enemy can just shoot at something else until the Kol runs out of antimatter. Finest hour is a great ability, as it helps the Kols antimatter addiction problem tremendously, but you need to wait to level six, and in serious games you don't always see a lot of level six caps. Now with a level 6 Dunov using flux field on a level 6 Kol, then its a great thing to have, but even this isn't a game winner and it requires two level six caps, and generally isn't worth the effort when you could also have had two level 6 Marza's using missile barrage.

Honestly I'd bet early on the Sova could kill a Kol in a straight out fight. Its a pretty fierce brawler for a carrier capitalship with those missile turrets, which can probably kill militia faster than a Kol can even without its strikecraft. Embargo is also a brutal ability early game, if you can keep a Sova at the edge of an opponents homeworld for a while you've probably won the game. It doesn't scale very well as fleets get bigger, but any carrier capitalship can become fleet supply point efficient, since they can eventually carry 4 carrier cruisers worth of strikecraft.

For TEC, I'd say lead with an Akkan most of the time for the economic boost, and if you get it to level 6 Armistice is a great tactical option to have. The only other thing I'd start with is a Sova, if you know you're close to an enemy homeworld or want to kill militia faster, but it can also do this pretty well as a second cap, so I'd say go with the Akkan.

As far as I'm concerned if you start with an Akkan the Sova should always be your second cap. Marza is a good third cap choice, as is the Dunov if you're facing Advent or titans are starting to come out already (you'll want at least one Dunov with EMP in any fight with an enemy titan, and perhaps several). Which ever one you don't build should be fourth. Now that Corvettes aren't as OP the Corsev isn't as good with Demo teams, so I'd say you probably don't even have to build a Kol or Corsev at all for the entire game. If you really want to build more than 4 cap ships, IMO additional Dunovs, Marzas and maybe Sovas would all be better.

Regardless of map or faction, colonizing cap (akkan, progenitor, or jarrasul) is best 1st choice 99% of the time...about the only exception to this is if you are on some map where the enemy HW is 1 jump away (then marza, Halcyon, and vulkoras would be better choices)...you play online in competitive games, you find that having a colonizing cap is essential to expanding fast enough (eco and frontliner) or relocating when you lose your HW (suicide spot)...additionally, some of the custom maps are an absolute bitch unless you have a colonizing cap...if you go into a custom map blind, it's best to assume you won't be able to expand very well without having a colonizing cap....

Those three ships also have extremely important abilities:

• Ion bolt on the akkan is your cap killer and ability disrupter ability, and armistice (lvl 6) is your lifesaver...of all 6 TEC ultimates, it is definitely the most useful...
• The progenitor has malice, the most important ability to couple with the Eradica's Chastic burst, and it also has shield regeneration, which is crucial to keeping your guardians alive (which are absolutely essential to Advent strategy now)...it's lvl 6 ability also is probably the best out of all of them (with cleansing brilliance a close 2nd)...
• The jarrasul has gravity warhead which is fantastic in cleaning up retreating fleets....nano disassemblers also is great for dealing with early game caps, SBs, and Titans...it's lvl 6 is probably the 2nd best out of all of them, with the Kortul's lvl 6 as arguably the best (I'd include marauder's lvl 6 but the opportunity cost of picking that ship is just too high)...

If you are eco player, you only need one cap to begin with....rush your titan, and once you have that, follow the below list as much as it resembles the frontline you will be assisting, taking into account what your frontliner has already gotten...

If you are TEC, I personally go with either with Marza, Corsev, or Kol as 2nd choice:

• If you are a frontliner and winning/pushing forward, having a Marza with raze planet can help you clean up planets quickly...this is particularly important if you are absolutely owning a player and need to wipe them out fast (either because your other frontliner isn't holding out or you're tag teaming a suicide spot)...
• If you are a frontliner and are holding the line/falling back, Corsev is the best pick...it is a fantastic tanking ship (get passive regen ability) and does great AoE damage...awesome ship defensively or if you are fighting over a contested planet with lots of frigates on both sides...
• If you are a frontliner and have to relocate or are eliminated (but somehow can get a 2nd cap out to safety), get a Kol...it's flak burst ability is immensely useful for dealing with bomber spam and you can still use your Kol to help protect your allies titans/SBs from bombers...this is probably the single greatest contribution you can give your allies with one capital ship other that just staying alive and having a planet (cause you did build that akkan 1st for colonizing, right?)..

TEC's 3rd choice (which should come after Titan):

• If you didn't get a Kol, get one to deal with bomber spam (this is crucial for protecting your titans, caps, and SBs)...Kol also is good at tanking...be careful with its AM usage, save it for flak burst...
• If you already have a Kol (or don't feel like you need one) get a dunov with EMP....this is your anti-titan ability as it keeps the enemy titan low on AM (and if they can't use their abilities, they aren't nearly as dangerous)...both magnetize and shield restore can be good picks as other ability....remember that magnetize is an ability interrupt (also kills SC), and I'd usually go with that...

If you are Advent, I personally go with either Halcyon, Discord, or 2nd progenitor as 2nd choice:

• If you are frontliner and winning/pushing forward, get a Halcyon for the extra bombers...this will help you clear out structures faster...make sure to get TK push, as that is your anti-bomber ability...
• If you are a frontliner and are holding the line/falling back, Discord is the best pick...fracture and scream are awesome AoE abilities that can help deal with large amounts of frigates....combo it with malice for greater effect...
• If you are a frontliner and have to relocate or are eliminated (but somehow can get a 2nd cap out to safety), get a Halcyon or 2nd progenitor...the TK push from the Halcyon can be a lifesaver for your allies if you follow one of their fleets and help protect their titan/SB from bombers...a 2nd progenitor (with malice) also can make the VR and TR titans immensely more powerful and is an excellent compliment to your allies' fleet...send one progenitor to each frontline and help them out....if you get both to lvl 6, you can resurrect virtually all your allies' caps should they lose them...

Advent's 3rd choice (which should come after Titan):

• You really want to have a progenitor with malice/shield regeneration, a discord with fracture/scream, and a halcyon with TK push/energy aura....so your 3rd pick is whatever you didn't pick 2nd...

If you are Vasari, I personally go with either Vulkoras or Kortul as 2nd choice:

• If you are frontliner and winning/pushing forward, get a vulkoras with siege platforms...just like the marza, this can help you quickly wipe out a pushover enemy or one you have on the ropes...
• If you are a fronliner and are holding the line/falling back/having to relocate, get a kortul...disruptive strikes is your anti-titan and anti-cap ability as it depletes them of AM and interrupts abilities...jam weapons also is great for protecting a fleet (whether it be yours or an allies') from bomber spam...and, it's lvl 6 ability is probably the best in the Vasari arsenal...

Vasari's 3rd choice (which should come after Titan):

• If you already got a Kortul, either Skirantra with repair cloud or the new Rankulus (whatever it's called)...
• If you don't have a kortul, get one...

This list is not perfect, and note that many things are very situational (what happens if you lose your 1st or 2nd cap???)...but, telling someone who is new and wants advice "well it depends" I know is frustrating...furthermore, personal taste does come into play...for example, I play AR and abuse wail like none other, so I'm not as concerned with having the discord for dealing with small frigates and instead go for TK push on the Halcyon...

Mecha is trolling because the Kol really is a long-running joke...but, it's history of being useless is why it's a joke...

Flak burst really is immensely useful...bomber spam is sooo common these days and you cannot counter it at all on short notice (fighters take too long to build and are too easy to kill)...I wouldn't generallly recommend a Kol as 2nd choice unless it's a unique situation, but its a very good 3rd choice (up there with the dunov) and should not be underestimated...

Also, late game if you lose your high level caps and have to deal with bomber spam, a quick build of 2-3 kols with flak burst can be your only viable way to counter...often times massive amounts of cobalts won't work as scatter shot, chastic burst, nano leach + stuff, and maw will just eat them to pieces...and if it's Advent, they'll just protect them with repulse...like I said, you can't amass fighters in a pinch (carriers take long time to build and squadrons take time to build as well) and flak won't kill the bombers fast enough....it's a really shitty deal if you get into that situation (almost guaranteed to lose some of your new Kols) but spamming flak burst really can be the best option available to TEC...

Seleuceia, thanks, even tho I am not the one asking, Reading is always helpful for someone who is about to start online playing    And I've been using kol's since I started playing sins, and they never failed me so far. And it kind of saddens me that people use the same thing over and over, even tho it's effective, it kind of ruins a game if they really do use it that that.

1 of my weaknesses is tho, I don't build a fleet quick enough, usually around 30 mins in or so, i start researching ships, and before I even get to building most ships, I got 4 capitals and a titan. But I will probaly change alot while playing against players instead of AI xD

Virtually all of my games now I only build that first free capital ship (colony cap) and use the next capital crews for my titan...the savings I get from going with only 1 cap allows me to rush better with more frigates, eco up faster, colonize more, or get my titan faster...

I also tend to get a lvl 7-8 progenitor very quickly, giving me both resurrection and high level malice...

I thought this was a preferred build order thread, not a which capital ship is better thread.  

Well in all fairness, if one cap is clearly the best, that inherently effects your build order...wouldn't you want to get the best caps first?

(If Tec) I just start out with a basic fleet, an Akkan escorted by two Kols and a few frigates. After I have the right amount of planets to do enough military research, I build some defences and start shipbuilding.

This is the order I 85% of the time go with:

I make an extra Akkan and start my Titan

3 Dunovs

6 Sovas

4 or 5 Marzas (Depends on mods, map, and enemies current situation)

As since I have yet to grasp the full concept of the Corsevs, I just build two

Then I finish my slots with Kols (For planetary Defense)

For the other two races, I don't know. Maybe only played 30 minutes worth combined for the Advent, and less than half for the Vasari.

Touche 

With vasari in frontline slot carrier is still a better open, both for early DPS, eventual ability to spam bombers and lvl 6 replicate forces (the amount of tactical flexibility being able to pop out copies of enforcers, overseers, subverters or siege frigates gives you should not be underestimated). You need colonizer anyway to get your sb up, so two isn't necessarily a waste. Egg is just too slow at turning, although nano dissembler + gravity warhead is a great combo. VL in eco slot egg is better option for early expansion and picking up planets to strip later (I will send it to support a flank's fleet as they push after colonizing. VR in eco slot carrier is still excellent support for titan once it comes out and clears out those terran/dessers very quickly.

TEC cap builds is dependent on opponent and distance. Sova only for embargo rush, otherwise akkan. Vs. vasari next ship is sova; vs. advent dunov or even KOI if I scout carriers (TR should probably get dunov with extra slot once titan builds). Marza comes when I need to take planets quickly, but is not a core cap for me. I don't understand the battleship boarding mechanics well enough to count combos executing when I need them.

Corsev

That cap ship that caps planets

the cap ship that bombs planets

the cap ship with shield regenerator skill

the cap ship with the massive laser

the cap ship with the mobile carrier

oh then Corsev

Corsev

Corsev

Corsev

Titan

Corsev

Corsev

.................................................. 

u suck

What is your problem today?

Just stating a fact.