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The Coronata really does need some changes

The Coronata really does need some changes

The coronata is still lagging behind the other titans IMO.  The recent changes really haven't done much to address the real issues.  The problem has never been that the cornata is "slightly" lacking in firepower as the recent small damage buffs imply.  The coronata's firepower is and always has been pathetic- the thing is it is pathetic by design.  The Coronata is supposed to be a support titan so they should stop trying to fix it by buffing it's weapon damage and make it a better supporter by buffing it's abilities.

 

Right now the coronata is a one-trick pony- Suppression Aura is amazing, but in terms of it's 3 basic abilities that's all it has going for it.  Subjugating Assault while a very cool idea has a number of issues(I'll discuss these later in the post) and Unity Mass is pretty much the Ragnarov's snipe only inferior in just about every way.  This overdependance on suppression Aura as principal contribution of the coronata also creates a situation when the Coronata is faced with opponent that suppression Aura doesn't effect(strikecraft and starbases) where the coronata just doesn't contribute nearly as much as other titans who remain useful against all opposition.  This is most notably a problem in assaulting starbases- the advent has always had trouble with hard targets and yet the more offensive/expansionistly minded faction(the loyals) get the titan does doesn't help in knocking out hard targets blocking their expansion.

 

Specific Ability Discussions:

Subjugating Assault:

The Problems:

1).  Not very reliable in it's effect. The conversion chance is small enough that the ability is rangery- sometimes you get a quick couple conversions, other times you waste AM for 30 seconds without a single conversion. Also Still a bit too AM-cost heavy, especially considering the unreliability

Also I really liked the way Sareth01 restated this problem so I'm quoting him with regard to the same general issue:

Subjugating Assault:

The main reason subjugating assault fails is that the average Coronata titan lifespan in the endgame isn't that long(once shields are popped this ship is essentially dead)With guardian/halcyon/progenitor support it becomes almost unkillable.  So by itself it is almost useless.  Using time as the main variable means that this ability will never really scale very well past a certain point in the game(Titan kill speeds get faster, Subjugation time stays the same...).  Large fleet battles require a LOT of conversions for there to even be a noticeable impact on the outcome of the battle.  Considering the player has little control over which weapon bank fires at which target(only primaries), the conversion rates should be drastically increased at ability levels 3-4.  This would maintain balance in the early game(fewer conversions), yet once the titan gets leveled up it will start to mind control your whole fleet, and quickly.  Players would already be warned of this ability because the bells toll out your doom(coolest ability of this titan).  When the doom bell tolls, and this is a high level titan, you might think about RUNNING!

As it stands I only "toll the bells" to psych my enemy out, this ability does little to actually change the outcome of most any large endgame battle.

If this ability remains as weak as it is, the coronata's endgame fleet support will still only really exist with the planetary takover ability, and only be constructed for the purpose of quick advent takeover of planets in the endgame. 
 

 

 

2).  Does nothing against capitalships, strikecraft, or structures.  This further contributes to the problem created by Suppression Aura where there are whole subtypes of enemies(most notably strikecraft & structures) which the coronata doesn't do much against.  If the enemy only brings carrier frigates and capitalships to the battle and parks the carriers o nthe far side of the gravity well ready to jump out if necessary, this ability suddenly becomes useless(and it's not like this strategy is bad in general).

 

Possible Solutions

1). Have Subjugating Assault only drain AM when it converts an enemy.  this would at least prevent it from becoming purely a waste of AM when you're unlucky.  The devs have access to the conversion chance so they could easily make it so on average it's the same AM drain as now per attack, but all of the colst happens when conversions are made

Additionally less abstract proposition by Volt_Cruelerz which looks pretty good to me:


Chance to Convert: 8.5%/11%/13.5%/16%
AM Cost per Shot: 7/6.3/5.7/5

 

2).  Add a secondary effect with the same chance of occurring as the conversion chance which may occur when attacking structures & capitalships.  Perhaps an AM drain?  That would certainly fall into the coronata's current role as a debuff-support titan

 

Unity Mass:

The Problems:

1).  This ability is basically Snipe, only with 1/2 the range, a 3x longer cooldown, and a rather large requirement of nearby frigates to deal it's full damage.  The range aspect is especially troubling as if used on a fleeing target coronata is not already facing, the slow turn speed of the coronata means the target is often out of range before the coronata is facing in the right direction.

 

Possible Solutions

1). The simple route beyond that would be to just reduce the cooldown to perhaps 15 seconds or so.

   That said since the Advent loyalists are supposed to be the offensive/expansionist faction as as I mentioned earlier have trouble with hard-targets, I'd prefer something alone to lines of inctead reducing the cooldown to 20 seconds(rather then 15), but having the damage of Unity mass increased by 33% when used on targets with module armor.  This would make the ability really shine when assaulting starbases, an area where previously the coronata was rather lackluster due to suppression aura not affecting structures.

 

 

 

Conclusion


These changes would fix the coronata's cheif problems.  Like all titans it would be broadly useful(as the subjugating assault change would give it some additional usefulness against capitalships & the Unity mass change would give it greater usefulness in assaulting starbases.  In a nutshell this is what the Coronata needs- at present it's biggest problem is that it's a bit situational due to Suppression Aura & Subjugating Assault both only really affecting certain types of ships.

 

The Suppression Aura damage debuff could always also be extended to affect starbases or strikecraft, but I left that out of my suggestions as Suppression Aura is already an outstanding ability and I thought it's be better to buff the abilities which are subpar.

 

Anyway, discuss.

 

69,179 views 65 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting sareth01, reply 24
A possible buff for reposession would be at ability level 2, the advent player also keeps all the planetary upgrades and 51% of the population, allowing for a very fast change of hands. and almost immediate production.  The new planet should however have low loyalty rates at the start.

This alone would make the coronata a "superweapon" of its very own.

The advent rebels have wail of the sacrificed as their military super weapon, so its not like its out of the question.  Considering the other races endgame abilities, this ability wouldn't be extremely overpowered.

I'd be good with such a change, though I wasn't sure if conserving planet upgrades was possible.

Reply #27 Top

Oh i'm not sure if it is possible if you take me extremely literally.  What is important is to design a mechanism that allows for the capability.  This could be that you just get a temporary planetary buff where you have 100% cost reduction for planetary upgrades that are completed very quickly, with a very high planetary population growth buff on the planet.

So in essence the tactical significance would be the same.  Although I feel that my suggestion is a bit crude, i'm sure others with more experience in this area could easily come up with a better solution.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting sareth01, reply 27
Oh i'm not sure if it is possible if you take me extremely literally.  What is important is to design a mechanism that allows for the capability.  This could be that you just get a temporary planetary buff where you have 100% cost reduction for planetary upgrades that are completed very quickly, with a very high planetary population growth buff on the planet.

So in essence the tactical significance would be the same.  Although I feel that my suggestion is a bit crude, i'm sure others with more experience in this area could easily come up with a solution.

Hmm..  Well, there's Provoke Hysteria..  

overTimeAction
buffOverTimeActionType "DoPercOfMaxDamageToPlanet"
damageRate
Level:0 0.010000
Level:1 0.012500
Level:2 0.000000
Level:3 0.000000
populationKillRate
Level:0 0.007500
Level:1 0.008625
Level:2 0.000000
Level:3 0.000000
...

finishCondition
finishConditionType "TimeElapsed"
time
Level:0 40.000000
Level:1 50.000000
... 

 

We could always change this to be the following

overTimeAction
buffOverTimeActionType "DoPercOfMaxDamageToPlanet"
damageRate
Level:0 -0.500000
Level:1 -0.750000
Level:2 0.000000
Level:3 0.000000
populationKillRate
Level:0 -100.000000
Level:1 -200.000000
Level:2 0.000000
Level:3 0.000000
...

finishCondition
finishConditionType "TimeElapsed"
time
Level:0 1.000000
Level:1 1.000000
... 

 

Are you thinking something like that?

Reply #29 Top

About the Subjugating Assault, I am not sure if it is only due to my bad luck or it is OP, but I had been hit by the skill heavily several times.

The most heavy loss in my bad lucks with Coronata, happened when I was commanding my Lv 6 Ankylon with 3 other Caps accompanied, and some other ships. (Normally I don't like to spam light carriers, so there are only 10 in my fleet.) And I caught the AI's LV 4 Coronata with 2 other Caps.

Then how bad-luck was I in that battle? I lost almost all my flaks, 2-3 Hoshikos, about 5 or so HCs, before finally I can send the AI's Coronata to hell.

After that battle, I start to build as much light carriers as I can now. I hate this kind of game play, but I hate the skill more.

Reply #30 Top

Yeah, I also think the Advent Loyalist Titan needs help.  But I am finding this discussion incredibly hard to follow.

Quoting Sonntagshut, reply 15
And something else... Can anyone tell me where to find the change logs of the previous versions? It's kind of annoying to only have access to the latest changes...

If you [read] this Yarlen, could you please add a topic with the older change logs?

Yeah I wish they would link the consecutive changelogs.  Here are the links (that I have):

Beta 1a (420034)
Beta 2  (421091)
Beta 2a (422166)
Beta 2b (423099)
Beta 2c (423729)

 

And Volt!  Honestly, all your text walls of theorycraft, without actually owning Rebellion, just muddies the water!  Please refrain until you can speak with clarity.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting SageWon, reply 30
And Volt!  Honestly, all your text walls of theorycraft, without actually owning Rebellion, just muddies the water!  Please refrain until you can speak with clarity.

:'(

Reply #32 Top

Does repossession work on planets that have too much enemy culture to colonize normally. Because if it did this would give it something unique. You could jump into the enemy's backfield,grab theworld, fortify it and start churning out culture. 

 

This could also synergize with other factions well. Vasari Rebs are supposed to have a tech that allows them to share phase gates, this would make it easier to get the Coronata into the backfield. If your ally is Advent Rebs you could scuttle the world and give it to them and they could set it up to use wail if it is a high pop world. 

Reply #33 Top

Quoting fhwagads, reply 32
Does repossession work on planets that have too much enemy culture to colonize normally. Because if it did this would give it something unique. You could jump into the enemy's backfield,grab theworld, fortify it and start churning out culture. 

 

This could also synergize with other factions well. Vasari Rebs are supposed to have a tech that allows them to share phase gates, this would make it easier to get the Coronata into the backfield. If your ally is Advent Rebs you could scuttle the world and give it to them and they could set it up to use wail if it is a high pop world. 

Except that scuttling planets starts population growth from zero, so Wail would take a long time to set up.

Reply #34 Top

So I just checked. Repossesion works on worlds under the enemy's culture. It also works on worlds with Aux Gov too.

 

Your right, my scenario would take time to set up, but the enemy would have to deal with your new planet quickly or risk it. I'm just saying that repossesion is different enough from colonization already that it's a good ability.

Reply #35 Top

I'm going to assume that doing so would not be an efficient use of resources.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 33

Quoting fhwagads, reply 32Does repossession work on planets that have too much enemy culture to colonize normally. Because if it did this would give it something unique. You could jump into the enemy's backfield,grab theworld, fortify it and start churning out culture. 

 

This could also synergize with other factions well. Vasari Rebs are supposed to have a tech that allows them to share phase gates, this would make it easier to get the Coronata into the backfield. If your ally is Advent Rebs you could scuttle the world and give it to them and they could set it up to use wail if it is a high pop world. 

Except that Repossession still starts population growth from zero, so Wail would take a long time to set up.

except that wail of the sacrificed is advent rebels only, while repossession is advent loyalist only :).

As a response to your other query, I'm not sure what these (are these entities?) ""DoPercOfMaxDamageToPlanet" actually do in the game as i'm no modder.  I think a time delayed (>1 sec after planetary acquisition) that works something like the progenitor upgraded colonize ability and also add in the population growth speed modifier.  Now if adding these "values"(correct term?) to this "entity" (correct term?) is impossible then just ignore my suggestion :) .  Yet from what i've seen modders do this isn't a very difficult operation (given my limited knowledge on modding).

I mainly critique the strategy elements when I compare it to the whole and have a running game balance in my head(for purposes of the beta).  I do this to provide "intention" feedback to the developers, to assist with their quest to make their coding match their intentions.

Reply #37 Top

DoPercOfMaxDamageToPlanet damages a planet for a set percentage of it's health per second.  Giving it a negative number should heal a planet for a percentage of it's health.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting fhwagads, reply 32
Does repossession work on planets that have too much enemy culture to colonize normally. Because if it did this would give it something unique. You could jump into the enemy's backfield,grab theworld, fortify it and start churning out culture. 

 

This could also synergize with other factions well. Vasari Rebs are supposed to have a tech that allows them to share phase gates, this would make it easier to get the Coronata into the backfield. If your ally is Advent Rebs you could scuttle the world and give it to them and they could set it up to use wail if it is a high pop world. 

by grabbing and losing that planet tho you would gain 2 damage buffs for your fleets if you had the appropriate techs(Assimilated Populace and A Planet for a Planet) not to mention Global unity researched youl automaticly start pushing back culture before you even get the first tower up, which could be quite good for said co-op ninja assault, the population nuke can be used as back up for later if the ninja strike dosn't go as planed   }:)

 

also have people been factoring in that aspect while making there making a opinion? i have been playing the advent rebels to much and haven't gotten a chance to test the Coronata's ult and the above techs out very much yet, il have to try them in my next game)

 

also the ult being able to work thought orbital gov and enemy culture is awesome, just read that tidbit 

Reply #39 Top

I would like to see subjugating assault changed to affect capital ships, drain am would be nice

Reply #40 Top

Mmm im not liking very much those changes to Subjugation Assault.

 

For example, yesterday vs the AI in a fleet combat, I took 4 of his Kodiaks and i felt satisfied, its ok. With a sligthly buff im afraid i would take so many ships and that smells unbalance!

 

 

 

What if the chances of conversion were different for Frigates and Cruisers? at level 4, for example, something like 10% for frigates and 5% for cruisers?

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Vatticson, reply 40
Mmm im not liking very much those changes to Subjugation Assault.

 

For example, yesterday vs the AI in a fleet combat, I took 4 of his Kodiaks and i felt satisfied, its ok. With a sligthly buff im afraid i would take so many ships and that smells unbalance!

 

 

 

What if the chances of conversion were different for Frigates and Cruisers? at level 4, for example, something like 10% for frigates and 5% for cruisers?

As far as the game is concerned, frigates and cruisers are just frigates.

Reply #42 Top

I just summarized the reason why I don't like the subjugation:

- sometimes it really hurts. I don't like the probability, especially the fact that my luck always sucks.

- it makes Rapture's Domination useless. Within the cool down period of Domination, the Coronata has already captured a lot of slaves.

----------------------------
edited 

- it's only a Lv1 skill.

Reply #43 Top

I've been thinking about Domination as well..  I guess there's always the potential of making it a target-capped AoE.  You select one enemy frigate and it grabs three of it's friends as well or something.

Idk..  I think I'm just going to have to playtest before I say anything else though...

Reply #44 Top

I just added one more reason in my previous reply.

Domination may be buffed a little bit, but I still think it's not a good idea to make a Lv1 skill to capture ships, just like the Boarding Party. It's way too difficult for the balance.

 

And I still don't like the probability. I prefer a skill with increased effect and fixed probability, instead of one sometimes very powerful and then suddenly sucks. Say, I don't like the critical hit skill of Blademaster in WC3, its probability is only 4%, and it nearly never benefits me, but only my enemies.

Reply #45 Top

Solo'd a level 2 Coronata against a pirate base today.  Aside from ultimately retreating it due to damage, I noticed something: it didn't convert anything.  I know it's the lowest level of the ability, but still, when facing the entire pirate base without any other fire to kill them off, you'd think that the thing would actually get some caps, but no.  None.

EDIT: According to the math, it should be taking me on average about 15 seconds per cap at level 1 of SA.  After a couple minutes (estimating the time), I got zilch, by which time i should have gotten 8 or so.  That's a chance of 0.35%.  I guess I could just be unlucky, but since I did try to keep all banks simultaneously firing to keep my chances as high as possible, my instincts say that it's bugged.  I'm in the middle of a game as Vasari Rebels now, but after finishing that, I'll probably take another look at the Coronata.

 

Speaking of which, is there a dev version of Rebellion that we can use?  It would be way easier to set up these matches if so...

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 45
Solo'd a level 2 Coronata against a pirate base today.  Aside from ultimately retreating it due to damage, I noticed something: it didn't convert anything.  I know it's the lowest level of the ability, but still, when facing the entire pirate base without any other fire to kill them off, you'd think that the thing would actually get some caps, but no.  None.

EDIT: According to the math, it should be taking me on average about 15 seconds per cap at level 1 of SA.  After a couple minutes (estimating the time), I got zilch, by which time i should have gotten 8 or so.  That's a chance of 0.35%.  I guess I could just be unlucky, but since I did try to keep all banks simultaneously firing to keep my chances as high as possible, my instincts say that it's bugged.  I'm in the middle of a game as Vasari Rebels now, but after finishing that, I'll probably take another look at the Coronata.

 

Speaking of which, is there a dev version of Rebellion that we can use?  It would be way easier to set up these matches if so...

 

you sure you had available fleet supply? unlike domination I don't think SA can go over maximum fleet supply.

Reply #48 Top

after playing around more with the Coronata i am liking the ideas others have said here that while subjugation is active your guns can only hit frigates and cruisers that way your not burning AM on capships, and the idea when unity mass is fired the ships that aided in its extra damage get a damage buff this would give it that extra push on utility that it needed.

 

the aura is fantastic and doesn't need touched at all

 

the ult is interesting and quite strong i like that it can hijack planets under the effects of orbital government and the synergy that is has with Assimilated populace(once it fixed anyway) and Planet for a Planet. it would be cool if it left the infrastructure upgrades but i like the idea of it having less health when you take it so if your opponent trys to take it back Planet for a planet kicks in. which is a pretty hearty buff to damage and range add that on top of a deliverance engine and you get 50% bonus to damage + culture buffs.

and i just had a flash back in my game iv been play to where i had lost an asteroid on the opposite side of my empire from where my fleet was and noticed that i had gotten the PfP buff ( il go check again to be sure) but the thought just occurred to me that you could warp your fleet in and jack some high priority planet that you know your opponent would spend alot of points into the infrastructure buff your fleet then warp to another world and start supplying pressure there, if they pop your planet you get buffed and if not you still got buffed(once its fixed :P)and just slapped there economy in the shins while advancing onto the next one

 

 

Reply #49 Top

@Volt. There is a dev.exe. Its in the Sins Rebellion folder found in Program Files/Steam/Steamapps/Common/Sins Rebellion. Should be about halfway down.

Reply #50 Top

I'd almost prefer that the mind control aspect of Subjudicating Assault go away entirely, and it become disabling or damaging instead (some of the ship crew sabotage the ship and reduce its effectiveness or something).

The mind control aspect not only makes the other subjudication Advent abilities look lame in comparison, but the randomness of it is really problematic. The gap between it sucking and being overwhelmingly powerful is razor thin, and you might see both due to the roll of the RNG.

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