The Coronata really does need some changes

from Sins Forums

The coronata is still lagging behind the other titans IMO.  The recent changes really haven't done much to address the real issues.  The problem has never been that the cornata is "slightly" lacking in firepower as the recent small damage buffs imply.  The coronata's firepower is and always has been pathetic- the thing is it is pathetic by design.  The Coronata is supposed to be a support titan so they should stop trying to fix it by buffing it's weapon damage and make it a better supporter by buffing it's abilities.

 

Right now the coronata is a one-trick pony- Suppression Aura is amazing, but in terms of it's 3 basic abilities that's all it has going for it.  Subjugating Assault while a very cool idea has a number of issues(I'll discuss these later in the post) and Unity Mass is pretty much the Ragnarov's snipe only inferior in just about every way.  This overdependance on suppression Aura as principal contribution of the coronata also creates a situation when the Coronata is faced with opponent that suppression Aura doesn't effect(strikecraft and starbases) where the coronata just doesn't contribute nearly as much as other titans who remain useful against all opposition.  This is most notably a problem in assaulting starbases- the advent has always had trouble with hard targets and yet the more offensive/expansionistly minded faction(the loyals) get the titan does doesn't help in knocking out hard targets blocking their expansion.

 

Specific Ability Discussions:

Subjugating Assault:

The Problems:

1).  Not very reliable in it's effect. The conversion chance is small enough that the ability is rangery- sometimes you get a quick couple conversions, other times you waste AM for 30 seconds without a single conversion. Also Still a bit too AM-cost heavy, especially considering the unreliability

Also I really liked the way Sareth01 restated this problem so I'm quoting him with regard to the same general issue:

Subjugating Assault:

The main reason subjugating assault fails is that the average Coronata titan lifespan in the endgame isn't that long(once shields are popped this ship is essentially dead)With guardian/halcyon/progenitor support it becomes almost unkillable.  So by itself it is almost useless.  Using time as the main variable means that this ability will never really scale very well past a certain point in the game(Titan kill speeds get faster, Subjugation time stays the same...).  Large fleet battles require a LOT of conversions for there to even be a noticeable impact on the outcome of the battle.  Considering the player has little control over which weapon bank fires at which target(only primaries), the conversion rates should be drastically increased at ability levels 3-4.  This would maintain balance in the early game(fewer conversions), yet once the titan gets leveled up it will start to mind control your whole fleet, and quickly.  Players would already be warned of this ability because the bells toll out your doom(coolest ability of this titan).  When the doom bell tolls, and this is a high level titan, you might think about RUNNING!

As it stands I only "toll the bells" to psych my enemy out, this ability does little to actually change the outcome of most any large endgame battle.

If this ability remains as weak as it is, the coronata's endgame fleet support will still only really exist with the planetary takover ability, and only be constructed for the purpose of quick advent takeover of planets in the endgame. 
 

 

 

2).  Does nothing against capitalships, strikecraft, or structures.  This further contributes to the problem created by Suppression Aura where there are whole subtypes of enemies(most notably strikecraft & structures) which the coronata doesn't do much against.  If the enemy only brings carrier frigates and capitalships to the battle and parks the carriers o nthe far side of the gravity well ready to jump out if necessary, this ability suddenly becomes useless(and it's not like this strategy is bad in general).

 

Possible Solutions

1). Have Subjugating Assault only drain AM when it converts an enemy.  this would at least prevent it from becoming purely a waste of AM when you're unlucky.  The devs have access to the conversion chance so they could easily make it so on average it's the same AM drain as now per attack, but all of the colst happens when conversions are made

Additionally less abstract proposition by Volt_Cruelerz which looks pretty good to me:


Chance to Convert: 8.5%/11%/13.5%/16%
AM Cost per Shot: 7/6.3/5.7/5

 

2).  Add a secondary effect with the same chance of occurring as the conversion chance which may occur when attacking structures & capitalships.  Perhaps an AM drain?  That would certainly fall into the coronata's current role as a debuff-support titan

 

Unity Mass:

The Problems:

1).  This ability is basically Snipe, only with 1/2 the range, a 3x longer cooldown, and a rather large requirement of nearby frigates to deal it's full damage.  The range aspect is especially troubling as if used on a fleeing target coronata is not already facing, the slow turn speed of the coronata means the target is often out of range before the coronata is facing in the right direction.

 

Possible Solutions

1). The simple route beyond that would be to just reduce the cooldown to perhaps 15 seconds or so.

   That said since the Advent loyalists are supposed to be the offensive/expansionist faction as as I mentioned earlier have trouble with hard-targets, I'd prefer something alone to lines of inctead reducing the cooldown to 20 seconds(rather then 15), but having the damage of Unity mass increased by 33% when used on targets with module armor.  This would make the ability really shine when assaulting starbases, an area where previously the coronata was rather lackluster due to suppression aura not affecting structures.

 

 

 

Conclusion


These changes would fix the coronata's cheif problems.  Like all titans it would be broadly useful(as the subjugating assault change would give it some additional usefulness against capitalships & the Unity mass change would give it greater usefulness in assaulting starbases.  In a nutshell this is what the Coronata needs- at present it's biggest problem is that it's a bit situational due to Suppression Aura & Subjugating Assault both only really affecting certain types of ships.

 

The Suppression Aura damage debuff could always also be extended to affect starbases or strikecraft, but I left that out of my suggestions as Suppression Aura is already an outstanding ability and I thought it's be better to buff the abilities which are subpar.

 

Anyway, discuss.

 

69,174 views 65 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Hmm..

Subjugating Assault:

The Coronata's forward guns are it's beams and plasma which have cooldowns of 7.5 seconds and 6.5 respectively.  Since it also has three targets on it's forward bank, that should mean that given the 10% chance of capture, in a period of 10 seconds, you'd have 8.6 chances, or a chance of 86%.  In a given second of having this ability active, it should be 8.6%.

On average then, it should capture an enemy ship once every 11.6 seconds.  Take from this what you will.

10% chance is quite low though..  Consider as well that Domination can give you a new ship even if you've already hit fleet capacity whereas SA doesn't which is something else to consider.  If you have full fleet capacity, it should not drain AM if active until some of your ships die.

Unity Mass:

I understand where you're coming from, but if you want to buff it's damage, because of Malice, be wary of buffing it too much.  That said, Chastic Burst will probably always be better with Malice, so..

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 1
Hmm..

Subjugating Assault:

The Coronata's forward guns are it's beams and plasma which have cooldowns of 7.5 seconds and 6.5 respectively.  Since it also has three targets on it's forward bank, that should mean that given the 10% chance of capture, in a period of 10 seconds, you'd have 8.6 chances, or a chance of 86%.  In a given second of having this ability active, it should be 8.6%.

On average then, it should capture an enemy ship once every 11.6 seconds.  Take from this what you will.

10% chance is quite low though..  Consider as well that Domination can give you a new ship even if you've already hit fleet capacity whereas SA doesn't which is something else to consider.  If you have full fleet capacity, it should not drain AM if active until some of your ships die.

Unity Mass:

I understand where you're coming from, but if you want to buff it's damage, because of Malice, be wary of buffing it too much.  That said, Chastic Burst will probably always be better with Malice, so..

Well in all honesty I only really opted for a suggested damage boost to Unity Mass because it was simpler( I suspect it would be much more difficult to convince the devs to code a new secondary effect this late in the beta).

Were I really given the choice I'd prefer to have a secondary effect added that supports the coronata's fleet in  some way(it's supposed to be a support titan, not a solo-superstar after all.

That said, I thought a damage/cooldown reduction were a more realistic request to make.  Focusing the damage on structures would at least give the advent loyals a bit more of an answer to starbases.

That said, as you pointed out Chastic burst will pretty much always be better for malice(and atm chastic burst's cooldown is already 5 seconds faster then unity mass)

 

 

As for subjugating assault: thanks for the specific numbers, I've been lacking those.  that said think your numbers may be slightly off(due to the lastest patch increasing the coronata's targets per bank).

Coronata's forward banks hit 4 targets now.  so in actuallity it's up to a ship every 8.75 seconds.  hmmm that sounds pretty high actually.  Are we sure each target of the attack ha an independant 10% chance of conversion?  I guess the main problem is just reliability if it actually is a ship every 8.75 seconds.

 

 

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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

With Subjugation, the chance of conversion should increase with every shot. So the first time a ship gets hit by it, there's a 10% chance, the second time, it increases to 12.5%, then 15%, and so on.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

As a huge fan of the advent I agree with you completely the Coronata needs some work to be able to fully support its fleet, it would be awesome if Unity Mass was given anti-module it could be the ultimate adjudicator which would fit the Advent Loyalists perfectly HEATHENS BE PURGED lol

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

The Coranata is not the worst ship, but its lack of firepower does not make up its utility that it possesses. Its ultimate is lackluster, while yes taking over a planet is nice. You don't keep any of its benefits aside from allegiance. You may as well just bomb the planet and colonize it than put a point into its ultimate as more points into the other abilities would be much better.

I agree with your other buffs as well.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

It would be less than 8.75 actually.  I just discovered that the AA guns of the Coronata also pass the buff.

4*(1/7.5+1/6.5+1/5.5)=1.88 chances per second.  After ten seconds, that's 18.76 chances which given the 10% chance at maximum level (it's only 4% at level 1), suggests a very high likelihood of capture.  Strictly speaking, it would be a 187.6% chance of success, which frankly means yes unless it's bugged which if people go as long as you're suggesting without getting one, it seems like it would have to be or a bunch of people are stupendously unlucky.

You should be capturing a new frigate/corvette once every 5.3 seconds on average unless my math is wrong.  Even at level one, you should be capping on average once every 13.3 seconds.  That translates into 150 AM per ship captured at level one and 30 AM per ship captured at level 4.

These numbers seem perfectly fair for a titan ability that drains AM with every shot and reduces damage.  Unfortunately, if it's working as seldom as you suggest, I'm assuming there's a bug.

My proposal to buff this ability instead of making it only remove AM upon capture (which I have previously advocated), would be to narrow the margin between level 1 and level 4.  At level four, it uses a fifth the AM, less than half the time, and deals more damage along the way than at level 1.  That margin is simply too wide, particularly from the standpoint of AM.  Thus, I propose the following:

  • 4.5/4/3.5/3 which would not affect level four while buffing the lower levels.  Presuming the same chances, that is 112 AM per ship captured.
  • 6%/7.3%/8.7%/10% chance of capture from an attack.

Combining the two of these should yield significantly better results at the lower levels which currently are flagrantly absurd.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

One of the patches to Beta 2 supposedly disabled the POINTDEFENSELASER weapon from taking over enemy vessels, so that's out, or should be if it isn't.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Okay, I'm just looking at Harpo's .76 gameinfo files so any inaccuracies would likely be due to that.

I still maintain however that at level 4, the ability should be able to capture ships in the reasonable time frame of ~5.3 seconds and 30 AM.  In all honesty, those numbers just sound really good to me.

This is a titan and as people have noted before, Titans make players stop massing frigates.  The other titans have their methods.  Heck, the Vorastra instagibs frigates and converts them into resources.  I feel like this ship should have the capacity to convert in a reasonable time frame some of the frigates in the enemy fleet which looking at the math right now, IMO it simply doesn't.

 

EDIT:

After some additional calculations because I love 5.3 seconds and 30 AM, I've come up with a revised capture chance to make it work as well as a new AM cost structure.

Chance to Convert: 8.5%/11%/13.5%/16%
AM Cost per Shot: 7/6.3/5.7/5

Yes, I understand that I increased the AM cost per shot, but when combined with the significantly improved chance of success, it's really not an issue and comes out to be a buff, particularly at lower levels where it is currently worthless with the conversion rate of around 120 AM for a frigate.  Now, it'll be 79 AM at level 1.  Still costly, but not as bad.

Idk, these numbers seem good to me.  :thumbsup:

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 6
It would be less than 8.75 actually.  I just discovered that the AA guns of the Coronata also pass the buff.

(1/7.5+1/6.5+1/5.5)=1.88 chances per second.  After ten seconds, that's 18.76 chances which given the 10% chance at maximum level (it's only 4% at level 1), suggests a very high likelihood of capture.  Strictly speaking, it would be a 187.6% chance of success, which frankly means yes unless it's bugged which if people go as long as you're suggesting without getting one, it seems like it would have to be or a bunch of people are stupendously unlucky.

You should be capturing a new frigate/corvette once every 5.3 seconds on average unless my math is wrong.  Even at level one, you should be capping on average once every 13.3 seconds.  That translates into 150 AM per ship captured at level one and 30 AM per ship captured at level 4.

These numbers seem perfectly fair for a titan ability that drains AM with every shot and reduces damage.  Unfortunately, if it's working as seldom as you suggest, I'm assuming there's a bug.

My proposal to buff this ability instead of making it only remove AM upon capture (which I have previously advocated), would be to narrow the margin between level 1 and level 4.  At level four, it uses a fifth the AM, less than half the time, and deals more damage along the way than at level 1.  That margin is simply too wide, particularly from the standpoint of AM.  Thus, I propose the following:


4.5/4/3.5/3 which would not affect level four while buffing the lower levels.  Presuming the same chances, that is 112 AM per ship captured.
6%/7.3%/8.7%/10% chance of capture from an attack.

Combining the two of these should yield significantly better results at the lower levels which currently are flagrantly absurd.

The beta 2b(0.80) said that point defense weapons were nolonger affected by subjugating assault and it was never changed back.  So if Point defense lasers are converting at present it's a bug.

Honestly your changes look like a nerf to me,  40% reduction in level 1 conversion chance for a 10% reduction in AM cost?  Your proposed form is exactly the same as the current rank 3 values at rank 4(since the current AM costs are 5/4/3/2 and 10% conversion at all levels).  Honestly it seems odd to me to "narrow the difference between rank 1 and rank 4" of an already subpar ability entirely by nerfing all ranks of the ability in some fashion.  Perhaps I was misunderstanding your proposition?

 

EDIT: this wasn't here when I typed the first part of thsi post:

 

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 8
EDIT:

After some additional calculations because I love 5.3 seconds and 30 AM, I've come up with a revised capture chance to make it work as well as a new AM cost structure.

Chance to Convert: 8.5%/11%/13.5%/16%
AM Cost per Shot: 7/6.3/5.7/5

Yes, I understand that I increased the AM cost per shot, but when combined with the significantly improved chance of success, it's really not an issue and comes out to be a buff, particularly at lower levels where it is currently worthless with the conversion rate of around 120 AM for a frigate.  Now, it'll be 79 AM at level 1.  Still costly, but not as bad.

Idk, these numbers seem good to me. 


That looks a lot better.  Would certainly do the trick(though personally I'm still a fan of just draining AM on conversion as that would be more consistent.


That said an increased AM cost sounds like an appropriate countermeasure to buffing the conversion chance.  The ability should IMO be costly and potent but not something that can easily be maintained all of the time rather then it's current "glorified passive" status at higher ranks.

Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Responding in blue.

Quoting bilun, reply 9

The beta 2b(0.80) said that point defense weapons were nolonger affected by subjugating assault and it was never changed back.  So if Point defense lasers are converting at present it's a bug.

Honestly your changes look like a nerf to me,  40% reduction in level 1 conversion chance for a 10% reduction in AM cost?  Your proposed form is exactly the same as the current rank 3 values at rank 4(since the current AM costs are 5/4/3/2 and 10% conversion at all levels).  Honestly it seems odd to me to "narrow the difference between rank 1 and rank 4" of an already subpar ability entirely by nerfing all ranks of the ability in some fashion.  Perhaps I was misunderstanding your proposition?

Perhaps it is different in the version you have, but as I can only read the .76 files which clearly dictate a percent chance of 4%/6%/8%/10%, not 10% across the board as you seem to think.  Thus, what I said the first time around was still a buff, but it also presumed that the AA guns would be applying the buff which apparently has been removed in a more recent version.  Because of being informed of this by Sparda, I reworked the math as you saw in the edited section of my post.


That looks a lot better.  Would certainly do the trick(though personally I'm still a fan of just draining AM on conversion as that would be more consistent

True, but given the volley of fire that it puts out, it won't impact the overall performance and means more coding for the devs.  All my system does is change eight numbers whereas to do what you're advocating, you have to either modify the game itself (bad) or rework the buff chain of SA (not pleasant).  Both result in effectively the same outcome, though mine requires less work and lore-wise makes more sense, hence why I've switched.

That said an increased AM cost sounds like an appropriate countermeasure to buffing the conversion chance.  The ability should IMO be costly and potent but not something that can easily be maintained all of the time rather then it's current "glorified passive" status at higher ranks.

Agreed.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Ah well, I was completely unaware the conversion chance scaled to level.  the infocard doesn't reflect this at all so I'd assumed it was constant.  That's good to hear(though they really should add something to the infocard).

 

In anycase in a few minutes I'll make some updates to my OP as a result of these discussions.

 

[EDIT: That's odd, the quote isn't displaying properly in the OP.  I've tried copy and pasting the quote 4 times now and every time it doesn't display in the post as a quote]

[Edit2: removing all references to the post the quote came from made it display properly- which is not ideal, but at least it's formatted now]

 

 

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top

Now for Unity Mass..  Hmm..

Well, clearly Snipe is the axial gun to end all axial guns.  Unfortunately, Unity Mass fundamentally does the same thing (nukes the target) with less range and needs supporting ships from which to draw power.  Perhaps the simplest change would be to make Unity Mass supercharge the Coronata's weapons following the beam itself.  That would make it more dynamic and fit more with the Advent and their synergies.

I'm thinking the damage boost would be something along the lines of this..

(7%/14%/21%/28%) + (2.5%/5%/7.5%/10%)*capitals + (0.75%/1.5%/2.25%/3%)*frigates + (7.5%/15%/22.5%/30%)*starbases + (0.5%/1%/1.5%/2%)*structures with no stacking limit and a duration of 20 seconds.

It might be OP and you can tweak the numbers all you want, but I think you see where I'm going.  You get a flat buff to damage plus additional damage based upon the surrounding ships and structures.  Also, increase the cooldown by 20 seconds to keep it at least somewhat in line.

This would make the Coronata the ultimate embodiment of the Advent battleball, something that I don't think anyone would mind, not to mention it would be so freaking awesome to watch the ship effectively go into "smite mode" and pound everything in it's path.  :dur:

A fleet of 100 frigates, 4 capitals, and a starbase for instance would result in a damage increase of 398%.  Powerful?  Oh yeah, but it's also largely dependent on mass frigates (and/or corvettes) which Titans plow through anyways, so it's not so much of an issue in the long run.  Against a Vorastra in particular, it's worthless as it would just eat the frigates that are powering up the Coronata.

Sure, you can nerf the numbers, but I don't think the idea itself is OP.  Such a solution would also synergize very well with SA as a buffed SA could help keep your frigate count up as you periodically call upon them to lash out at the enemy via Unity Mass.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 12
Now for Unity Mass..  Hmm..

Well, clearly Snipe is the axial gun to end all axial guns.  Unfortunately, Unity Mass fundamentally does the same thing (nukes the target) with less range and needs supporting ships from which to draw power.  Perhaps the simplest change would be to make Unity Mass supercharge the Coronata's weapons following the beam itself.  That would make it more dynamic and fit more with the Advent and their synergies.

I'm thinking the damage boost would be something along the lines of this..

(7%/14%/21%/28%) + (2.5%/5%/7.5%/10%)*capitals + (0.75%/1.5%/2.25%/3%)*frigates + (7.5%/15%/22.5%/30%)*starbases + (0.5%/1%/1.5%/2%)*structures with no stacking limit and a duration of 20 seconds.

It might be OP and you can tweak the numbers all you want, but I think you see where I'm going.  You get a flat buff to damage plus additional damage based upon the surrounding ships and structures.  Also, increase the cooldown by 20 seconds to keep it at least somewhat in line.

This would make the Coronata the ultimate embodiment of the Advent battleball, something that I don't think anyone would mind, not to mention it would be so freaking awesome to watch the ship effectively go into "smite mode" and pound everything in it's path. 

A fleet of 100 frigates, 4 capitals, and a starbase for instance would result in a damage increase of 398%.  Powerful?  Oh yeah, but it's also largely dependent on mass frigates (and/or corvettes) which Titans plow through anyways, so it's not so much of an issue in the long run.  Against a Vorastra in particular, it's worthless as it would just eat the frigates that are powering up the Coronata.

Sure, you can nerf the numbers, but I don't think the idea itself is OP.  Such a solution would also synergize very well with SA as a buffed SA could help keep your frigate count up as you periodically call upon them to lash out at the enemy via Unity Mass.

 

That would be a pretty intuitive system- the contribution depending on the size of the ship so that all ships are good investments for powering up Unity mass.  That said I suspect it may be a bit on the complicated side-I'm not all that familiar with the engine limitations, but I can't think of a single existing ability which Has effects dependant on ship type beyond the general classes "strikecraft, frigate, structure, cap ship, or titan".  Could certainly be an option though.

 

 

The other ideas I had on the topic of unity mass were to add a secondary effect to the current effect to give ti some additional fleet-supporting potential.  perhaps something alone the lines of:

Idea A:

Unity mass: In addition to the current damage the target ship takes 15/20/25/30% increased damage for 15 seconds after being hit.

This would make unity mass a strong focus-fire tool in addition to dealing good upfront damage

Idea B:

Unity Mass:  Make unity mass Omnidirectional.  In addition to it's current effect Unity Mass disables the target's engines for 2/3/4/5 seconds.

This would give Coronata time to "come about" when an enemy capship begins fleeing so that it finishes turning before the enemy gets out of suppression Aura range.  Well this one may be a bad idea being that The coronata already has a slow.

Idea C

Unity Mass: All allied ships that took part in the unity mass have their current shield mitigation increased by 10/15/20/25% as though they had taken damage.  This effect does not increase maximum mitigation -only affected ship's current level of mitigation.

This one would be good for protecting fragile ships in the fleet that have low enough hull/shields that by the time they cap out shield mitigation they're practically dead(would chiefly be very good for disciples, Corvettes, and Domina subjugators)

Idea D:

Unity Mass: Additionally all friendly units that take part in the Unity Mass have their antimatter regeneration rate increased by 30/45/60/75% for 15 seconds.

 

Of course all of these are meant only as proof of concept rather then as finalized numbers

 

Well in all honesty these ideas are likely complicated enough that convincing the devs to consider them would be difficult- but I've been thinking about interesting ways in which the ability could be expanded to have some more fleet synergy/support as the Coronata is a support-titan.  But can't hurt discussion to toss out ideas regardless of the reduced likelihood of implementation  :grin:  

 

God I enjoy brainstorming ability modifications way too much.

 

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 5
The Coranata is not the worst ship, but its lack of firepower does not make up its utility that it possesses. Its ultimate is lackluster, while yes taking over a planet is nice. You don't keep any of its benefits aside from allegiance. You may as well just bomb the planet and colonize it than put a point into its ultimate as more points into the other abilities would be much better.

I agree with your other buffs as well.

 

I disagree with this. I am not going to argue about, whether Coronata is underpowered compared to othe titans, or whether its abilities need the boost.... i have not played the game enough to make these kind of judges yet. I just say, wait for Vasari to be unleashed, then play the game some more, and then try to rebalance things, if needed.

Anyway, saying that Repossesion is lackluster, is huge misundersting. Yes, it would be cooler if it overtook the planet with all the upgrades, but its still IMHO the coolest ultimate ability and i would say Coronata and Vasari Vorastra have the coolest abilities overall. Wonder why, perhaps even shaking your head? Let me explain.

All the other Titans seem to have abilities primarily of tactical importance, helping the titan in the fight, boosting its firepower or endurance, or boosting its surrounding fleet or crippling enemy somehow. Look at the Ankylon, it cripples enemy ability casting, repair itself, shields its fleet, repair itself even more. Ragnarov abilities are again like sniper and shotgun, again helping you just in fight. Given the fact, the Titans are already bristling with regular weapons, what is the point of this?  Its boring and makes these Titans one trick ponies, good at fighting enemy fleets, but nothing more.

Coronata and Vorastra are different, their abilities are of strategic importance, and i think this makes them far cooler and interesting to play with. 

 

Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 6
It would be less than 8.75 actually.  I just discovered that the AA guns of the Coronata also pass the buff.

(1/7.5+1/6.5+1/5.5)=1.88 chances per second.  After ten seconds, that's 18.76 chances which given the 10% chance at maximum level (it's only 4% at level 1), suggests a very high likelihood of capture.  Strictly speaking, it would be a 187.6% chance of success, which frankly means yes unless it's bugged which if people go as long as you're suggesting without getting one, it seems like it would have to be or a bunch of people are stupendously unlucky.

You should be capturing a new frigate/corvette once every 5.3 seconds on average unless my math is wrong.  Even at level one, you should be capping on average once every 13.3 seconds.  That translates into 150 AM per ship captured at level one and 30 AM per ship captured at level 4.

Well yeah, your math is wrong ;) (at least some parts). You should definitely look into calculating percentage values and probabilities again ^^.

I have no idea if the weapon cooldowns are right, and I will just assume its beam, plasma and laser weapon cooldowns, and 4/4/3 banks (as of latest patch notes). So for chances per second I'd get (4/7.5+4/6.5+3/5.5)~1.7 hits per second (I have no idea what you did there, but the "=" is definitely wrong ;) ).

So with 10% chance we have 1-(1-0.1)^1.7= 16.4% chance each second (it's not 17% and you definitely can't get a probability of >100% ever!). For 10 seconds thats a 83.3% chance, for 20 sec 97.2%, for 30s 99.5%.

The average time for a success would be every 10 hits, so 10/1.7 = 5.88 seconds (14.7 secs at level 1). In antimatter cost it would be "average number of shots" x AM cost, so at level 1 it would be 25 shots x 5 AM = 125 AM per capture (as of previous patch the cost was reduced to 5/4/3/2). at level 4 it would be 10 shots x 2 AM = 20 AM per capture.

 

So it's not all as bad as you say it is, the antimatter per capture at highest level is even very low. Also when adding a Halcyon with attack speed aura you get to an average 4.5s per success. With cooldown on plasma weapons you'd even get lower. I don't think that's a very long time. Like that your titan would actually "kill" a frigate every 4.5 seconds and even give you control over it ( and that only with Subjugation, no damage counted yet). Sounds quite mighty even actually.

Also the damage of the coronata has been buffed already in the latest patch, and the damage reduction for Subjugation at level 4 is only 10% as of the previous patch.

So I have to say that the speedup you propose for Sugjugation (increasing the %values is just a speedup) seems a bit off. You would get to 2.84 seconds average with 16% chance and halcyon around, and that might really be a bit fast.

 

I'd actually adress the targeting of the titan. There should be a change for target priorities if Subjugation is enabled, to ensure that the titan will shoot frigates as the whole ability is useless if the titan shoots all the banks at capital ships.

As for the rest, I think the changes to Subjugation and damage might have eased these parts already.

 

And for Suppression Aura, there is just a single titan who could do anything useful against strikecraft and thats the Ankylon with the shield. All the other titans have nothing against strikecraft either. Park a halcyon next to your titan and level telekinetic push and you should be fine, that's what everyone else has to do too ;).

The SB issue is something worth thinking about, it might actually be ok if suppression aura worked on starbases, but better only 50% of it. If the whole effect was applied, together with the increase of guardian shield regen in latest patch the SB might not do any damage at all ;).

 

And something else... Can anyone tell me where to find the change logs of the previous versions? It's kind of annoying to only have access to the latest changes... 

If you ready this Yarlen, could you please add a topic with the older change logs? :)

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting bilun, reply 13

That would be a pretty intuitive system- the contribution depending on the size of the ship so that all ships are good investments for powering up Unity mass.  That said I suspect it may be a bit on the complicated side-I'm not all that familiar with the engine limitations, but I can't think of a single existing ability which Has effects dependant on ship type beyond the general classes "strikecraft, frigate, structure, cap ship, or titan".  Could certainly be an option though.

I could make this ability myself using only buff files with little difficulty.  ApplyBuffToTargetsInRadius applies the buff to them and they proceed to ApplyBuffToLastSpawner back to the Coronata with uncapped stacking buffs.  By having a target filter on the APTTIR, you could easily accomplish different boosts based upon the size of the target.

Idea A:

Unity mass: In addition to the current damage the target ship takes 15/20/25/30% increased damage for 15 seconds after being hit.

Not really necessary.  I've thought of this one too, but in the end, it's just a weaker version of Designate Target after Snipe when in fact, DT can be used before Snipe.

This would make unity mass a strong focus-fire tool in addition to dealing good upfront damage

Idea B:

Unity Mass:  Make unity mass Omnidirectional.  In addition to it's current effect Unity Mass disables the target's engines for 2/3/4/5 seconds.

This would give Coronata time to "come about" when an enemy capship begins fleeing so that it finishes turning before the enemy gets out of suppression Aura range.  Well this one may be a bad idea being that The coronata already has a slow.

Once again, not a big fan.  It's still a "focus on a single target" which I feel the Ragnarov should specialize in.

Idea C

Unity Mass: All allied ships that took part in the unity mass have their current shield mitigation increased by 10/15/20/25% as though they had taken damage.  This effect does not increase maximum mitigation -only affected ship's current level of mitigation.

This one would be good for protecting fragile ships in the fleet that have low enough hull/shields that by the time they cap out shield mitigation they're practically dead(would chiefly be very good for disciples, Corvettes, and Domina subjugators)

This would require new coding unless I'm mistaken because I'm pretty sure the ability to spontaneously boost mitigation doesn't exist.  The only method I'd know would be to deal damage and then heal that same amount, but that's an awkward way to do it.


Idea D:

Unity Mass: Additionally all friendly units that take part in the Unity Mass have their antimatter regeneration rate increased by 30/45/60/75% for 15 seconds.

I'm not against the idea of it doing some such thing, but I don't really see the need.  I feel like UM should focus more on offense, but maybe that's just me.
 

 

@Sonntagshut: I had a feeling I had performed some magic math the first time around which is why I did the second round of evaluations (and this is also the version that made it into the OP) on a piece of paper by hand.  I trust that significantly more than doing it in my head and writing down the occasional step via my keyboard.  Also note that in your math, you still accounted for the AA guns which as was discussed later don't apply because the most recent version removed their ability to pass the buff.

I will look to modify my most recent math however as I wasn't quite sure how to go about calculating the total percent chance.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 16

@Sonntagshut: I had a feeling I had performed some magic math the first time around which is why I did the second round of evaluations (and this is also the version that made it into the OP) on a piece of paper by hand.  I trust that significantly more than doing it in my head and writing down the occasional step via my keyboard.  Also note that in your math, you still accounted for the AA guns which as was discussed later don't apply because the most recent version removed their ability to pass the buff.

I will look to modify my most recent math however as I wasn't quite sure how to go about calculating the total percent chance.

As I wrote, it's not the AA I was thinking of, but the normal Laser bays (those should still have subjugate effect). Are those backward only? I have no idea...^^ Just thought it might be right to just ram the whole own fleet right into the enemy fleet ;) So there's all bays firing then.

 

Oh my idea for unity mass: If unity mass kills the target the explosion will do area damage/debuff. And increase the possible firing arc to 90° front or something.

 

And if you do look into it, don't forget to take the latest changes to number of weapon bays into account :). Also I still have no idea how you got your number of shots per second ;).

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Timmaigh, reply 14

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 5The Coranata is not the worst ship, but its lack of firepower does not make up its utility that it possesses. Its ultimate is lackluster, while yes taking over a planet is nice. You don't keep any of its benefits aside from allegiance. You may as well just bomb the planet and colonize it than put a point into its ultimate as more points into the other abilities would be much better.

I agree with your other buffs as well.

 

I disagree with this. I am not going to argue about, whether Coronata is underpowered compared to othe titans, or whether its abilities need the boost.... i have not played the game enough to make these kind of judges yet. I just say, wait for Vasari to be unleashed, then play the game some more, and then try to rebalance things, if needed.

Anyway, saying that Repossesion is lackluster, is huge misundersting. Yes, it would be cooler if it overtook the planet with all the upgrades, but its still IMHO the coolest ultimate ability and i would say Coronata and Vasari Vorastra have the coolest abilities overall. Wonder why, perhaps even shaking your head? Let me explain.

All the other Titans seem to have abilities primarily of tactical importance, helping the titan in the fight, boosting its firepower or endurance, or boosting its surrounding fleet or crippling enemy somehow. Look at the Ankylon, it cripples enemy ability casting, repair itself, shields its fleet, repair itself even more. Ragnarov abilities are again like sniper and shotgun, again helping you just in fight. Given the fact, the Titans are already bristling with regular weapons, what is the point of this?  Its boring and makes these Titans one trick ponies, good at fighting enemy fleets, but nothing more.

Coronata and Vorastra are different, their abilities are of strategic importance, and i think this makes them far cooler and interesting to play with. 

 

My main point was that you are better off just bombing the planet. All it does is make you move along faster, which is kind of lack luster by itself.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Lasers are aft only, plasma are fore only, and beams are both.  I was presuming that you were in normal combat and not throwing your Coronata straight into the enemy fleet.

Anyways, when just counting the forward guns (which I was), you get 1-(1-.16(4/7.5+4/6.5))^t and when t=5, you have a 63% chance.

 

As for Repossession, perhaps it could boost the allegiance to 100% instantly or something.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Repossession has been in a sort of rough place ever since it was restricted from hitting capitals- while I understand the capital game type made this necessary, part of the original strength of the skill was that you could ignore enemy border worlds and rip out the proverbial beating heart of their empire, regardless of the presence of hostile culture.

 

With the removal of the ability to repossess artifact/capital planets the only really amazing uses are when the opponent happens to have a terran/desert other then their capital which isn't on their border(if it's already on their border possession wasn't necessary to capture it regardless of enemy culture and is only really speeding up the inevitable).

 

it would be another story entirely if capturing the planet were more of a tactical advantage.  What if Repossession gave a large buff to structure construction rate and planetary improvement rate for maybe 5 minutes after repossession?

That way it may be possible to jump in, repossess a world, and throw up some cursory defenses(maybe a repair bay or two and perhaps a frigate factory?) before the opponenet's main fleet shows up to defend.

 

Or even better have a % chance of additionally stealing some of the previous owner's tactical structures along with the planet.  Nothing big(obviously nos superweapons and probably not even hangerbays), but maybe something like a 30-50% chance per turret or repair bay of seizing control....hmm might be too strong, but I like the concept.

 

Well first off, Assimilated Populae needs to be fixed so that Repossession Triggers it, at the very least that would add allow repossession to trigger a +15% frigate/cap ship fleetwide damage boost(then again assimilated populace doesn't work at all ever sicne the patch where they increased it's duration).

 

Well regardless of the means I suspect the key to making repossession more useful will be in adding a tactical advantage to the ability so that it can be used mid-attack to increase your fleet's odds of winning the battle for the planet.

 

 

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

Subjugating Assault:

The main reason subjugating assault fails is that the average Coronata titan lifespan in the endgame isn't that long(once shields are popped this ship is essentially dead)With guardian/halcyon/progenitor support it becomes almost unkillable.  So by itself it is almost useless.  Using time as the main variable means that this ability will never really scale very well past a certain point in the game(Titan kill speeds get faster, Subjugation time stays the same...).  Large fleet battles require a LOT of conversions for there to even be a noticeable impact on the outcome of the battle.  Considering the player has little control over which weapon bank fires at which target(only primaries), the conversion rates should be drastically increased at ability levels 3-4.  This would maintain balance in the early game(fewer conversions), yet once the titan gets leveled up it will start to mind control your whole fleet, and quickly.  Players would already be warned of this ability because the bells toll out your doom(coolest ability of this titan).  When the doom bell tolls, and this is a high level titan, you might think about RUNNING!

As it stands I only "toll the bells" to psych my enemy out, this ability does little to actually change the outcome of most any large endgame battle.

If this ability remains as weak as it is, the coronata's endgame fleet support will still only really exist with the planetary takover ability, and only be constructed for the purpose of quick advent takeover of planets in the endgame. 

Unity mass:

Small fleets (25% max fleet supply)should have a weak unity mass, medium fleets (50% max fleet supply) should have a medium powered Unity mass, and large fleets (75% fleet supply +) should have a very strong "OP" version of unity mass.

This ability should become far better then snipe once your fleet gets very large(75% of max fleet supply +).  IT should be an ultimate support ability that transfers the unity's strength through the titan to strike out at the foes of the unity.  I believe this is the intent of coronata's design, yet in all reality the design as it currently stands is woefully lackluster.  I don't see a single titan ability in the TEC titan lineup that isn't very useful.

Unity mass needs two things to remain relevant. 

A range element needs to be added so that it ads a % to range per ship that is around it (1-2% per ship, of any kind).

If no range element is to be added, then the damage element should be greatly increased, so if a coronata titan goes toe to toe with a Vasari starbase with strong fleet support, it should be able to provide the punch to knock it down the last 20% (kind of like a WoW paladins ranged execute) as long as it had a certain number of ships still alive after the encounter.  This amount of ships required for the "long range killing blow" should be reduced the more you level this ability up.

Damage % should be increased based upon the average fleet supply magnitude of the surrounding ships.  Small fleet supply ships would mean that this is a relatively weak punch with unity mass (it would still have long range though).

Having say all carriers near the coronata would mean that you would have a high powered long range shot.  Then again your fleet would be very weak to a well supported large LF strike on said carriers.

Adding in smaller ships lowers the fleet supply magnitude average, so a pure fleet would be like a glass cannon, strong abilities yet easily countered because you would have to stack one type of ship to get the maximum effect.

This would be very fun to play, because players would be managing the fleet supply magnitude in the back of their minds, every ship built changes their fleet capability.

I also like ability suggestions bilun, they are fun!

 

 

 

 

Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 18



My main point was that you are better off just bombing the planet. All it does is make you move along faster, which is kind of lack luster by itself.

 

I see. Perhaps i could agree that Repossesion is in a need of a buff. But its still a cool, unique ability. Lets say it would be replaced by something in the mould of the TEC titans, making it more badass in the fight...sure, it might be useful on more occasions tha Repossesion, but again, there are dozens of other ways to fight enemy fleets. But there is only one to take over enemy planet, by bombing and colonising it, and that is why Repossesion is unique and cool, its a better and faster alternative to that, abd while fairly situational, you may find it useful at some point... like when trying to get a foothold in enemy territory, taking over enemy planet those few minutes sooner than with regular bombing can make all the difference between success and failure. 

Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Blast, just realized I put this thread in the sins rebellion section of the forum rather then the beta feedback section.  Aw well, the discussions been great so I suppose it's not a huge issue.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

A possible buff for reposession would be at ability level 2, the advent player also keeps all the planetary upgrades and 51% of the population, allowing for a very fast change of hands. and almost immediate production.  The new planet should however have low loyalty rates at the start.

This alone would make the coronata a "superweapon" of its very own.

The advent rebels have wail of the sacrificed as their military super weapon, so its not like its out of the question.  Considering the other races endgame abilities, this ability wouldn't be extremely overpowered.

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting sareth01, reply 24
A possible buff for reposession would be at ability level 2, the advent player also keeps all the planetary upgrades and 51% of the population, allowing for a very fast change of hands. and almost immediate production.  The new planet should however have low loyalty rates at the start.

This alone would make the coronata a "superweapon" of its very own.

The advent rebels have wail of the sacrificed as their military super weapon, so its not like its out of the question.  Considering the other races endgame abilities, this ability wouldn't be extremely overpowered.

 

Aye, replacing the current upgrade cost reduction with "the planet keeps it's upgrades"  would be perfect- the idea has been bouncing around the forums for awhile now.  Some people seem to think it would be difficult for the devs to code for some reason though.

 

 

If they could do it it would be perfect though.

 

Also the % of preserved population & starting allegiance could be dependent on the rank of repossession.