Beta Log through the eyes of a noob


A (possibly ongoing) post of ranting, ravings, and random strings of profanity; all seen through the eyes of a noob to the genre.



*Note: I'm sure many of these issues are common knowledge for the development team, but I'm here to share my feedback nonetheless.  

*Note 2, the sequel: I'm more of an overall look-and-feel kinda guy.  I'll let others stare at the xml data for hours to determine if the numbers are balanced.

 

 

UI and Visual notifications

My initial thoughts thus far is that the game is currently leaps and bounds ahead of War of Magic in regards to noob friendliess.  The tutorial with videos, is a very welcome feature.  As a result of these videos and tutorial in-general, I learned more about the game's mechanics in fifteen minutes than I did in four hours of playing WoM on my own.

I noticed many small notifications, such as the "Zzzzz" above my city when it wasn't building an improvement.  These are greatly enhancing FE so far, so please keep this up.

 

 

While I appreciate the introduction of these icons, too many of them clutter the map and may confuse the noob:

 

Some icons are intuitive to me, such as the pickaxe means something to harvest (even food, I guess), and the green treasure chests (which I first believed were fists) mean treasure.

But what the crap is the purple squatting, hunched-over dragon; the blue soldier; and the red pad lock lock (at least this icon is easily recognizable)?  My first assumptions (after figuring out just what shape that purple thing may be) were monster, army, and unlockable... something.  I guess this game has wolves, horses, and skeletons that can be unlocked.  I don't know...

There are either too many icons, the icons aren't intuitive, or there needs to be an easy reminder for what they are (i.e. a side-menu or reminder when you click on an icon, one that can be preferably dismissed for the non-noobs).

 

 

 

Speaking of icons, I noticed that sometimes the cloth map view will show only a few icons, yet when I move the map or zoom out and back in one notch, a bunch more pop into view.  Maybe this is a bug.  

These icons were all guilty of this:

 

 

And then there are the orphaned icons, which once represented something nearby, but on a later turn, came back into view:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Minimap

I'm sorry, I love you guys, but the mini map currently sucks.  I'm sure it's color-coded for a reason, but why?  And my BIGGEST pet-peeve thus far: WHY, if I drag the main map up ("north" for example), does the mini map move northwest?  Seriously, kill this with fire.

 

 

 

The Art

I really enjoy the different environments in FE, contrasted with the endless wastelands of WoM.  But I have one suggestion, and one cautionary tale.

When green forests immediately become purple forests at the edge of a tile, it can look odd. 

 

 This is trivial though, contrasted with the cautionary tale below.

 

I was once mauled early-on when I failed to see the cave bear surrounded by purple forest.  If you are going to use similar colors, then I suggest you make the deadly creatures (which are normally easy to see via the icons when zoomed out) easier to see when zoomed in (ex. not have their colors so similar that the noobs don't see them).

 

 

 

Speaking of noobs and color issues, am I the red kingdom, or the blue kingdom?

 

 

 

 

Menus

Little touches like the ability to quickly change characters or execute decisions in the trace/shop window are great and intuitive.

 

 


Resources

 I get food.  I get money.  How is metal and materials related?  How do I make mana?  In the words of another poster:

"What gives me more mana? My mana production increased when I built a temple on a shard, so I'm assuming there is a connection ( ;)   ) but there was nothing that told me this. Maybe when I mouse-over my mana supply, it could tell me where it's coming from? And also maintain an account of the spells that require mana-upkeep? More meticulous mana management, methinks might make more mighty men. Maybe?"

  

Lastly, I was VERY confused when I read that a building's requirements were +1 maintenance.  What's maintenance?  Are there invisible handymen and janitors that work about my city?  No, apparently that means money.  OK, so if it means money, then I suggest you use that icon.




 

Battles

 What do these number mean?  There needs to be an easier way to determine the likelihood of winning a battle.  Specifically, the attack, defend, and overrall threat rating.  Here are some battle notes:

 

  1. I lost one battle because my threat level, attack number (is this what the sword represents?  Maybe I'll just call it the sword number), and defense number (shield?) were much higher than another creature's.  Yet what I failed to realize is that these numbers were my combined stats, and thus this creature slaughtered my army one person at a time.
  2. I lost one battle because while my sword number was higher than another army's, their shield number was vastly higher than mine.  I always missed them in-battle, and when I did hit them, did not seem to do as much damage as I expected.

 

 

 

  

 

Keybindings

 What land is good land?? There needs to be a button that quickly brings up the food/materials numbers for each tile when founding a city.  Maybe tab?

 

How do I take a screenshot?  I would love to see a key bindings screen in the Options.

 

 

 

 



Beginning my first game

Quoting from another user, as this described my first experience or seven:

"AAaaaand, POOF, I'm in the world! Oh, lots of stuff to read.... time to play! Oh, I was so excited! Awesome gfx, an untouched land ready to conquer! Sick. My sov was placed near a black widow, so, because I know I've gotta be pretty bad ass (I've got a beard!) and I should probably clear the area before I build a city (so I thought!) I attacked the thing.... I.... had been mistaken."

Noobs may need more warning in regards to their fragility in the early game.

Speaking of which, at the beginning of one game, I noticed that my sovereign began on a small peninsula, just large enough to eventually build a medium-sized city.  Yet surrounding this peninsula was nothing but desert and swamp.  Although that really didn't matter that much, because a Slag army and Drake army were blocking my path the mainland.  They just sort of sat there, eyeing me as if to say "bring it."   :omg:

118,644 views 31 replies
Reply #1 Top

Arh another of these nice posts the devs seems to skip I agree that while the tutorial is nice, it is greatly lacking!

Also agreed on keybindings, want more of them, and want to view and change them!

To help you out:
Icons:
Green Chest =  Some loot your heroes can collect.
Purple Dragon = A monster's spawning hut/monster lair these lairs (I think?) spawn monsters, which in case attack nearby stacks that are weaker than themselves, attack with a hero to remove.
Red Lock =A  resource or a quest that can be unlocked by advancing your technology.
Orange Pickaxe = A resource that IS unlocked and can be upgraded so you start harvesting, you can only upgrade such resource inside your own territory.
Blue Soldier = A hero ready for hire, move a unit next to it, then you can talk to it by clicking the hero and using the talk action in the lower left corner of the screen.
Yellow Scroll = A quest that your heroes can activate by moving over it.

What is special resources: Some of these can be upgraded, some with the right technology.
Metal, Crystal, Horses and Wargs (Wolf like creatures) are used for constructing advanced armies requiring some technolog, you have to research a certain technology to harvest these.
Diplomatic Capital is a currency used for training monsters, also I was told the AI likes you better if you have alot of this, can be harvest without technology, though some buildings granted through research can also give Diplomatic Capital.
The resource counter will also show a count over your current shards (every shard increases power of some spells)
Gold: Also used for maintenaince, harvested from taxing population, and special buildings, along with upgrading some special resources on the map, usually completing quests and winning combats will award some gold, and selling found items in the shop also provides gold.
Mana: You gain 2 Mana per turn, this can be increased by a special hero starting ability (starts with 40 Mana and gives +1 per turn), it can also be increased by upgrading temples, and elemental shards (fire shard, earth shard). (shards gives +3 Mana per turn).
Prestige Points (Increases growth in cities, works better the fewer cities you have), you gain this by having a powerfull sovereign (not sure about that calculation), gain some by heroes gaining "Path of the Governor" on levelup, also some buildings and technologies will reward Prestige Points.

This is not to undermine your post requesting for an easier first game, better tutorial, better map generator, and lack of UI help, I am merely trying to help you through the game until they can upgrade these parts of the game, and TY for the input!

[Edit: Changed description on diplomatic capital and purple dragon]

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #2 Top

Great post, lots of good points that any one of us can only give on first impressions. Valuable stuff for devs!

Reply #3 Top

Gammit10, sounds like you took a page from my thread. ;) I like it, especially the diagrams and such. I should think these kind of threads are quite invaluable to the devs. I know they would be for me developing a new game!

 

Some icons are intuitive to me, such as the pickaxe means something to harvest (even food, I guess), and the green treasure chests (which I first believed were fists) mean treasure.

But what the crap is the purple squatting, hunched-over dragon; the blue soldier; and the red pad lock lock (at least this icon is easily recognizable)?  My first assumptions (after figuring out just what shape that purple thing may be) were monster, army, and unlockable... something.  I guess this game has wolves, horses, and skeletons that can be unlocked.  I don't know...

 

This really got me thinking about how in "Previous Strategy Games from my Past" (--skirting around another shameless Civ reference), this inundation of situationally irrelevant information (i.e. quests one cannot yet take and champs one cannot yet hire) was limited by revealing only the resources one had technological access to. That is, you couldn't see stuff like Coal or Uranium until you had researched their respective techs. This then allows the map to become more complex at a steady pace rather than all at once.

 

Perhaps in E:FE, this could be implemented similarly? Quests and champs could only be visible once you were actually capable of doing something with them? Or would this be too limiting for strategy?

-- I feel like it would simply /change/ the strategy. Probably not to everyone's liking.

Although I realize it may be important to know where champs are ahead of time, I think it would be reasonable (and rather fun!) if the quests randomly popped up once you gained access to them. 

 

 

And then there are the orphaned icons, which once represented something nearby, but on a later turn, came back into view:

Here here, this is quite annoying! And, I suspect (and hope!), is a bug. 

 

 

Reply #4 Top

Thanks for the feedback.

Kongdej - I shall do my best to memorize these icons.

Ragmash - the diagrams are easy.  I use snagit (the awesome program that does this) at work for showing clients step by step directions, and the development team bugs.  It has a 30 day free trial if you want to use it.

Reply #5 Top

Diplomatic Capital, what is it used for besides trading.

I trade horses, metal and crystals cause its used to make stuff. Gold is used to pay for stuff.

Diplomatic Capital is not used by anything, so its worthless, except to sell to an AI.

I thought it might be used to make your city grow faster or something, but can't see how to use it.

 

Am I missing something?


 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Natjur, reply 5
Diplomatic Capital is not used by anything, so its worthless, except to sell to an AI.

 

DiploCap is spent to train monsters.  :fox:

Reply #7 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 6

Diplomatic Capital is not used by anything, so its worthless, except to sell to an AI.

DiploCap is spent to train monsters. 

Thank you. I was sure I was missing something, I will re-look at the costs when I make my next Drake.

Reply #8 Top

Also, having a ton piled up affects how much people like you. 

Reply #9 Top

 

While I see the point that the game may be unfriendly to a noob, and this needs to be addressed, I would hate to see it addressed in a way that makes it less playable for an experienced player.

The most alarming suggestion was hiding special resources until you can unlock them. Ugh. The #1 reason to abandon a game of Civ5 after the first hour or so of play is finding out that you don't have any Iron. Playing WOM, the barren world and hidden resources can make for even worse gotchas when you research a new level of Adventuring and discover that there's something wonderful in a spot that you will never quite get into your territory without building a wasted city.

What would be good in general is configurable icon filters on the map. Let the player individually turn on and off each type of icon, so a noob can avoid info overload but an advanced player can plan properly.

And of course make sure to provide full tooltips on the icons, so the player can mouse-hover and see the details (e.g. "Ubertroll Lair: this lair will occasionallly spawn monsters until it is cleared by a hero", "Magic Pony Glade: You must discover Little Ponies via Cutesy research to use this resource", "Magic 8 ball: You can build a Magic Pool Hall on this resource")

 

Reply #10 Top

Quoting weregamer1, reply 9
 

What would be good in general is configurable icon filters on the map. Let the player individually turn on and off each type of icon, so a noob can avoid info overload but an advanced player can plan properly.

And of course make sure to provide full tooltips on the icons, so the player can mouse-hover and see the details (e.g. "Ubertroll Lair: this lair will occasionallly spawn monsters until it is cleared by a hero", "Magic Pony Glade: You must discover Little Ponies via Cutesy research to use this resource", "Magic 8 ball: You can build a Magic Pool Hall on this resource")

 

 

I'm with you.  I would like the option to noobify or unnoobify for various things.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting weregamer1, reply 9

And of course make sure to provide full tooltips on the icons, so the player can mouse-hover and see the details (e.g. "Ubertroll Lair: this lair will occasionallly spawn monsters until it is cleared by a hero", "Magic Pony Glade: You must discover Little Ponies via Cutesy research to use this resource", "Magic 8 ball: You can build a Magic Pool Hall on this resource")

 

I always been thinking that there should be FULL tooltips to everything, since even as an "advanced" gamer I  sometimes forget some specific details about an object, and getting a quick tooltip is a great way to refresh memory.

sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #12 Top

A few more thoughts I've entertained as I continue to play:

  1. Why is auto-explore broken?  It either walks my scouts directly at the nearest large hostile army, or it simply does not work.
  2. It is too easy to obtain injuries in battle, and too difficult to remove them.
  3. This bug continues to bother me: icons pop in and out at different times, and some continue to show even after I build on the land they occupy.

 

 

 

A thought that continues to plague me: the density of monsters, quest tiles, champions, etc. are WAY too dense on "medium" settings. This takes away from the cool factor of discovering something, as that feeling soon becomes too-often held.

Ignore the "Huh?" as I am reusing a picture for a different purpose: showing the density of these special tiles.

 

Reply #13 Top

Gammit, I have voted once before and will do again, that there should be even more density options, and even more map creation options (like how much water/land in the world, how many quest huts, how much mountain ranges should cover, etc.

In general I would like an advanced map creation editor with tons of options to modify instead of the current "choose land type" (balanced, mountainious, and whatever you can choose), This would be one step towards making the random maps 100% more pleasing to each player with unique tastes, and I hope they atleast consider some more options.

I am please so far with alot of stuff in this game, don't get me wrong, sometimes players need to contemplate on stuff they DO like in the game, what they really want to cooexist with other changes, and what they want to hang around as options, because I think this game is filled with a lot of "sweets" that you do not see in newer games lately.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #14 Top

I wouldn't mind more density options, but at the very least the default should not place something every 3-5 tiles away from the last goody.

Reply #15 Top

Update for 0.91 patch.

 

The faction differentiation is awesome so far.  I love the unique items!  Love the back-swing with axes, swords, etc.  Some of the traits seem a little wimpy, but I'm sure that will shake out in the end.  

Note: I have emailed in the folders associated with today's game.

 

 

Some issues I've noticed (incoming pictures):

  • My game froze after loading the main menu, locking the computer, and unlocking the computer.
  • My explorers, set to auto-explore, attacked a monster.  Seriously.  I forgot to get a screenshot of the pre-battle, but (predicatbly) this was the aftermath:

 

  • All sovereigns and hired champions would not display on various menus:

 

  • This kingdom to map color mismatch still makes me want to punch a baby:

 

 

Reply #16 Top

I have installed on two computers, and I have the missing sovereigns/monster pictures on one of them. Even after display driver update.

Reply #17 Top

I almost forgot!

 

When I began a quest which required me to kill the fire snakes, the quest location (snakes) appeared within another faction's zone of control.  The game was only 20 or so turns in on a medium map, so space was not very limited.  Is this a bug?

Reply #18 Top

An annoying noob-issue for me:

Sometimes I set my city to build two improvements, then move the the training window to have them train a unit.  UH OH!  It'll now take way too long to train that unit!  As it stands now, I have to remove all improvements through the queue and add them back in when this happens.

What I suggest:

as long as the improvement has yet to begin, allow us to drag and rearrange everything in queue from #2 spot back.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Gammit10, reply 18
as long as the improvement has yet to begin, allow us to drag and rearrange everything in queue from #2 spot back.

Rearranging the build queue have been asked for before, and will still be asked for in a long time until it is added :P

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #20 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 6

Quoting Natjur, reply 5Diplomatic Capital is not used by anything, so its worthless, except to sell to an AI.

 

DiploCap is spent to train monsters. 

 

Wow! That is counter intuitive.

 

Regardless, great OP!

Reply #21 Top

 

  Thanks for posting all of this.  One of the hardest things to see as a game designer that lives in the game is the little simple ease of use things we take for granted.  (being able to watch players play in their uploaded youtube videos is a great help for this too).

  I'm taking notes on things we can do to improve.

Reply #22 Top

Updated to 0.912 patch:

This is still an issue:

 

Crappy map creation

So, here is the world I have explored this far:

Notice the only attachment to the rest of the map is in the North West corner, via a narrow isthmus.  OK, now zoom in on that narrow land:

 

 

You see that guy blocking the path?  He's a level 9 champion that I can not yet recruit.  I also cannot get past him.  If I click on any land past him, my army just stands there.  Yes, I tried auto-advancing to the next turn, and clicking on him.

 

Essentially, I am stuck until I can get Breon's letters to recruit him, and even then I'm sure I'll be short money.

 

 

 

Reply #23 Top

After playing a few more games, the only new thing that sticks out to me is that the monster AI seems a tad too aggressive on easy.  While playing on easy, I routinely find the monsters attacking me from several tiles away.  While this seems appropriate for normal ai, as a noob to the genre, this would really piss me off.

I'm definitely not saying go BACK to how passive the monster AI was before these patches, just that it needs a little tweak in my opinion.

 

 

Please, for the love of all that's good, fix the color of city/color of sovereign mismatch, and the mini map moves north, actual map moves northwest issue.

Reply #24 Top

I think the orphaned icons are just the common bug of stuff disappearing visually but still being there. Happens a lot with structures, units, hitpoint bars, etc. The icon over the building is still there but visually the plot looks like brown dirt, if you zoom in and out a few times the building might pop back up, and sometimes its still visible if you zoom out to clothmap mode.

 

Reply #25 Top

An update for patch 0.914:

 

The monster AI is fine, but the NPC AI is handing my ass to me (again, keep in mind I am very new to this genre).  Just like in WoM, they are majorly out-playing me, even on Easy, and I don't know why.   X(

  1. This past game, I played as Altar on easy, and I routinely play a kingdom on easy (yes, that is Altar, the RED kingdom with BLUE zones of control...  seriously, this makes trying to figure out if that nearby yellow city belongs with the yellow faction (it's really the green faction) way too difficult).   <_<
  2. My general modus operandi is to research some early civics to boost my production and economy, and then one magic so I can build crystal foundries (IIRC). In the meantime, I am building city improvements to boost my economy, production, etc. while keeping an eye on my stores and input.  My coffers usually do well at this point.  
  3. I am simultaneously using my sovereign and one champion, along with 1-2 squads of militia or spearmen to clear the surrounding areas of creatures and gather treasure.  I equip what I can on my sovereign and champion, and sell the rest.
  4. If I find an area rich in metal or crystals I will send a pioneer to build a new city or an outpost.  
  5. After exploring for 15-20 minutes, I eventually run into another kingdom or empire.  Without fail, their number in the upper-right (forget what it's called) is always at least 5, but more often 10 points higher than mine (say, 20 to my 12).   >_>
  6. They start threatening me shorty thereafter, so I begin researching warfare.  
  7. Within 30 minutes or so their numbers are now significantly higher than mine (say 30 to my 14).  They declare war on me while I run into another empire/kingdom.   
  8. The second NPC's numbers are higher than both mine and the original NPC kingdom/empire I encountered (say 38, 31, and my 16).  Within 10-20 minutes, they too have declared war on me, even if they are a like-minded kingdom that was "close" to me just a few minutes ago.   :omg:
  9. Both NPC groups harass/destroy my outposts and weaker cities and then finally invade and crush me a short period of time thereafter.   :O

 

On the WoM boards, the only advice I received was "spam research," but that destroyed me then as well.

I know it is likely I am making significant mistakes, but feel the easy setting should not routinely kick my ass this hard in one hour (seriously, I have yet to win a game, or even conquer more than one NPC kingdom/empire).  

Even if I am "playing the game wrong," it does seem amiss that an easy setting will always kick my ass.  Because this was observed with WoM, I am deeply concerned there is something very anti-noob about the game.  Even if I am a terrible player ever at this game, should I not routinely get so horribly destroyed on easy?

 

Help