If Steam is required for install, play, multi-player, AND updates (no information on offline LAN without steam running?!) then there is almost no point to offering a boxed Collector's Set as it is essentially pointless at this stage in the game ...

I first heard about this elsewhere. I'm attaching my reply below for the record.

I have no problem if Stardock makes it AVAILABLE on Steam for those that prefer that platform, but NOT REQUIRE it for those of us that don't. As far as I'm concerned, REQUIRING Steam is a total betrayal by Stardock. I will NOT buy anything that REQUIRES me to use Steam.

I could have sworn I saw a Stardock post a while back stating that we would be able to use the "new" Stardock client for all our Stardock games. I was looking forward to Rebellion, not anymore. Goodbye Stardock.

Well, having the disk would save you the trouble of downloading the game through steam. Otherwise I see what you mean. I'd still purchase one though if available, depending ofcourse on what's in it.

kind of wondering where everybody complaining about steam was when the original Sins switched to requiring Impulse, at the time a buggy mess of a program barely out of beta, to update, but god help you if you have to run a full-featured, slick client to install and play MP

This will smack the smurfs.  Now they will be outnumbered.  Muwahahahaha!

(For anyone about to read this, please do not miss-understand my 'tone' of voice in what you are about to read. I am saying these things  respectfully and am attempting to give this disclaimer to avoid any 'miss-reading' of my post. My intentions are to respond to this discussion in hopes to show you the viewpoint in which I am trying to explain my perspective on the situation.)

You were not required to install Impulse to install the game. You were not required to have Impulse installed to run the game. You were not required to have Impulse running in order to run the game (either in Online or 'Offline' mode). You were not require to have Impulse to play LAN or internet with your friends.

What you were required to have Impulse for was to update (after patch 1.05). Again, the above conditions were still observed for this process. Patching Sins was equivalent to opening a web browser, finding the patch, downloading it, installing it, then closing the web browser. It was simple, un-obtrusive, and used when you wanted to use it and no other time, period.

If there was an issue with Impulse, either for patching or tech support you sent an e-mail to support and in a friendly and quick manner it was taken care of with respect and politeness. Even if at the end of the day your account were to be suspended, you still had the ability to install your game from the disc and play without any interfearance from Stardock or IronClad. This is not the case with Steam.

Often with steam I have had to wait multiple days to get any issues resolved that required an e-mail being sent to the Steam tech support. Often the answers were not helpful, were curt, rude, and condescending. More than that, if at any time either because of capped internet connections or because of 'behavior' on the forums or you were accused for being a hacker/cheater your account could be permanently locked with no explanation. You would lose access to all of your digital downloads (hundreds of dollars ($) if you were a big user of their services) until the problem was either 'resolved' or you never gained access back. When your account is locked, there is almost no reliable recourse on any friendly terms to appeal the decision, it is near permanent.

So, if I were to sum up the 'reasons why I'm complaining about steam' ... this should about illustrate the tip of the iceberg as I see it.

Yarlen, how much CPU will Steam and Steamworks consume?  Will it result in lag for multiplayer games as a result?  Can the Steam and Steamwork programs be assigned to a CPU core different from the one that's running Sins?

^ This.

It was my understanding that were would be a retail release, but it's been mentioned by Yarlen that keys obtained from retail purchases can't be used in Steam. And since Steam is now required, is it safe to assume there will no longer be a retail release?

This is based on my years of experience with Steam and Steamworks games:

Steam/Steamworks CPU demapnds are so small that its not noticable.

Response time of MP games isnt affected

Yes, you can assign different CPU core to Steam and to game - if game has multicore CPU support, it wont make any difference and as mentioned above, Steam CPU demands are tiny.

So as far as I know, a boxed release of Rebellion will eventually become available. Though if you would want to play online or be able to update your game with the latest patches, you are of course still tied to the Steam client...

Right, but here's what I'm getting at: Yarlen has confirmed in this thread that Steam will be required, from initial install to multiplayer, everything. However, Island Dog has stated in another thread that retail keys CANNOT be used in Steam, period. So, if Steam is the only platform for which to play Rebellion, all retail buyers will be screwed with no way to play.

Color me confused.

Link to statement about retail keys, please.

Correction: It was Island Dog, not Yarlen, that stated retail keys could not be used for Steam.

I know steam is the new monopoly-buts that all i know. Its installed on my comp and i don't know why i run my games from it and chat to all my long time friends and clans. Its just there pissing on my desktop and using up my internet for updates. All my games work and my game list is looooong.

I watch most game trailers on steam but when I'm looking for something special i go to gametrailers.com. So far i find steam not annoying at all and when i was in the UK i was playing all my multi-player games and kicking ass without any problems.

There was ofcourse the occassional cheaters but steam banned them and sent a news letter they were banned from Modern Warfare 2, steam and the client was patched etc. Guys if im missing something regarding steam please let me know. Currently its the best thing that ever happened to me in terms of  a gaming community, discounts for games and pre-orders. I always use to download games for free but thanks to steam i buy em. In my opion steam resembles the Itunes Store for games-but ofcourse i could be wrong so please educate me?

P.S the tec loyalist get a Hoshiko Titan.. o0

Well, at the start ( boot time ), in my case, it use fully one core and around 130mb ram... but once it is started, it is around 1-2% of a core ( i have 8 core at 2.66ghz ) and between 6-30 mb ram... there was a patch a few month ago who have greatly reduce the CPU use and ram use...

I am a steam user but not a big fan... mainly due to some incompatibility with my hardware ( steam don't like hardware who use ram from cache his bios )... at boot time, i end up 1 time on 2 with a BSOD... but once booted correctly, it is very stable...

In fact, there is a positive side with sins using Steam... Sins/Ent/Dip was working very good on Linux ( without modified exe, crash limit is 4gb in place of the 2gb on windows OS ), multiplayer included... but Impulse have never work on Linux... well, the good side is that Steam work perfectly on Linux ( in my case, better that on windows due to my BSOD problem )... no more complicated work with update on windows via impulse and copy everything on linux...

As for offline mode, steam is not so perfect... sometime, it will not start a game until you are able to be again online... by example, these last Sunday, i have try to start medieval II total war and a pop-up windows have appear with "Steam error : This game is currently unavailable. Please try again at another time"... well, after waiting a few hours without result, i have end up to install the non steam CD version... as today, it is again ok with steam but their server are not reliable at 100%...

So, steam is not perfect but it is certainly better that the few other alternative... and some of the disadvantage are largely compensate with the extra features...

As for Impulse, i have always hate the "US only" thing for a lot of game... by example, i have discover "dragon age origin" on Impulse but it was a "US only" game... so, i have end-up buying it on Steam... for people outside US, in a lot of case, Steam is the only choice, there is no alternative at all...

That was reply regarding past Stardock games, because when Stardock started putting games on Steam, lots of people asked if retail keys and Impulse keys can be registered on Steam.

Yes, for games like Trinity, etc.  The retail keys cannot be used with Steam.

Rebellion is different, they will be redeemable.

We haven't experienced any noticeable CPU hit with this so far.

I dont know where you guys got that Rebellion is a Steam exclusive, but Im pretty sure your all dead wrong. Stardock announced that people will be able to download the game from that stardock download distribution website directly with an optional client as well as Impulse.

If you all are right however, then yes stardock you can expect to have one less sale for your game, perhaps even losing half of all your sales considering the size of the fan base, and the average fan base's shared mentality about Steam.

Yes: steemisgay, and thats my username for it.

Rebellion will be available in various outlets, but as Yarlen stated already, Steamworks will be used regardless of where it's purchased.

I am not having Steam on my pc, so it looks like I'll have to cancel my pre-order.

What a shame a great game like this has gone belly up.

For you maybe.

I have no qualms with using Steam to play Rebellion. It's not much different than using Windows which I would rather have an alternative too besides MAC which I hate even more.

I don't begrudge anyone that feels so strongly against Steam as that is their personal choice, but it hardly ruins the game. Considering there were probably just as many gamers that wouldn't get the game because it wasn't on steam, it's probably a wash or a net gain anyway.

Having thought about it all, the big deal breaker for me and our LAN crew will be the ability to have LAN (either in steam 'offline' mode or just straight up LAN) with friends in the same room. My internet connection is bottle-necked and we often have large LAN parties once or twice a month with Sins (6-10 people in the living room). We tried to LAN with SC2 and the required interface (with 8 people trying to cram through a 1mb down and .1mb up connection) made any LAN games practically unplayable. Personally for me, if this issue is answered one way or the other it will be a big deciding factor in my purchase. Steam is steam. I wish there was an alternative but at the moment, from a cost/gain viewpoint it sounds like it's a no brainer (no offense intended Zombie ).

Zombies have adapted to enjoy more than just brains.

Where is my zombie smiley

If you want to complain about using a Clint to play your games in, then complain about EAs Origin. that is a big piece of shit program.  Ive been using Steam since it was released many years ago. I own at least 100 games with steam, and not once have I ever had any issues with it.  I cant complain about, but I was surprised about this decision to use steam since IC and Brad have stated in the past about their non DRM stance with their games. 

Yarlen, I would like to know, I have had this issue and you and I have talked about this in the past about the game having issues with slow downs and long pauses after three plus hour games.  I would like to know how this new enhanced engine is holding up?  I read in the review that you all have enhanced the engine and fixed the issues with slow downs after several hours of playing.  Can you please comment on this? This is the one area of the game that always concerns me, and I am very curious about how the game runs after a three plus hour span.

Thanks,