A leap of faith

Well, I guess nobody wants to discuss the something there concept then???

I am going to discuss Genesis 2 so I just wanted to get this post moved to where I can more easily access it ... to be continued.

Skeptic Bible Study: Creation Account (Literal)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBALaE6hqEg&feature=relmfu

If you go out of your way to misinterpret and try to make any story told to you look silly, you can.  The Bible isn't an exception - it's not written to avoid ridicule, it's written to tell a story.  So basically, you make assumptions.  God got tired so he had to rest.  That doesn't make sense, so why did he rest?  Maybe because he was done?  Would that make more sense?

Maybe it wasn't done in a finger snap because God repeatedly, throughout the Bible, weaves together stories that communicate principles, so well in fact that the skeptics today want them to just be fables that communicate principles instead of actual things that happened. 

The Day 4 account (he forgot he created light, lolz) is really missing the point.  God somehow had light... without a light source.  For 3 days.  Then he made sources of light.  What kind of being is this that can create light without a source?  Okay, now we're talking a mind-blowingly powerful being here, not a forgetful sort.  You may ask, why'd he create light sources when he could just create light?  And that's a darn good question.  Perhaps to leave room for faith.

Day 6's question lacks wisdom. How were they given dominion over other people if there were none?  They weren't given that authority!  They were given authority over the Earth, the plants and animals, etc.  Not other people.  Adam, however, was given authority over Eve as her husband.

Are you even aware of what an atheist is because you sure don't sound like you do? How in the world am I, an actual atheist, supposed to take your god (any) seriously, a joke right? When you folks give up your will, does the funny bone get removed too, just wondering? Here you go again with that “assumption” nonsense. You berate me for some professed evolutionary assumptions I don’t know about and you weren’t talking about … and now you turn around and tell me that you need to make biblical assumptions to make these fairy tales just sound plausible, what’s up with that???

Why spend such time hinting at barbaric first century principles as opposed to telling the truth or passing on useful information like witches are not real, the earth is round and maybe a little about germs and serialization to mention a few. But I think ignorance is absolute bliss in religious circles so bliss away. How about just proving that Allah doesn’t exist (nor any of the other thousands of gods) just so we all know this one is the real, real deal as opposed to all the other real deals. Oh you have a book that explains it all … just like they all do/did, must not be a big deal then huh. You are offering nothing new here, just more of the same nonsense. Does this mean the word of your god is nothing more than assumptions that require people to straighten it all out just to try and make them sound conceivable?

You know (should) as well as I do that the bible has no pertinent real universal view, only the perspective of a view of the observable sky at the time these fables were concocted. They just didn’t know any better and wouldn’t have comprehended it if they were told and this god of yours saw no reason to enlighten humanity of reality.

PS - Genesis-28: God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground. ” [I don't think man could fly at the time]

Skeptic Bible Study: Creation Account (Excuses)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=-WZSDHJkIBs&feature=endscreen

PSS – we haven’t even gotten to Genesis 2 yet hahaha.

Definitely you're missing the context.  The creatures who crawl on the ground were created before the humans, then the humans were created.  They're separated out in the creation account, so they are separate here too.

I like the way I should know all these things, according to you, but you provide nothing that actually says why I should know those things.  I have my book and I have personal experience that backs up the fact that God does exist, he works today, and is extremely powerful. 

The point I was driving at is that if you treat the Bible with the disrespect and misinterpretation from the original post, you will never make any sense of it.  It can be funny to do that but it's also the actual arguments that people put forth for the Bible not being true.  "Oh, there's a contradiction... if he's so powerful, why does he have to rest, lol you're so stupid Bible thumpers!!!111"

Which is why someone needs to come behind and provide the actual explanations that you would hear from the pulpit of any decent church.

Now, the thing about being a believer is that you know the Bible is true and God's word, and therefore won't contradict itself, and therefore, should be used as a sounding board for any specific interpretation you pull from the Word of God.  This will keep you from making up silly doctrines, if properly applied.  For example, if you try to doctrinally take anything from Ecclesiastes, you are probably going the wrong direction, because it was written from the viewpoint of the world with the conclusion that everything under the sun is worthless, except when you have God.

Also, witches are real.  Wicca.  Possible that they even have some supernatural powers granted by demons.  I don't know.  But there is certainly a Wiccan religion.

No wonder you have reality problems, you believe in hobgoblins and other unproven fantasies. Islam, Hinduism etc. have gods aplenty and books, demons, witches and are ‘real’ religions too, but they are just as screwed up as atheists are, go figure. However your unproven but necessary witches and demons are the real deal … just like Christianity huh … because the book says so? We are alike in one respect though: You believe all the other religions and gods are counterfeits, while I just add your religion and your god into the mix too. So as things turn out to be, I just disbelieve one more religion and god than you do as we see all the other religions for what they really are. Let me know if you find some way to disprove all the other gods that billions of ‘faithful’ people believe in because if you cannot, then your religion is meaningless. Just make sure your god isn’t debunked in the process too, hahaha.     

Even when I was serious about religion, the bible never made much sense to me because it is such an irrational document. And now that I know better, well it is still silly to me. I have no idea whatsoever what you know or don't I just don't care because that's your business and your life. Are you SURE you know what an atheist is??? Now with that in mind; if I do not believe in your god … how much credence would you guess I place in a book hawked as the very word of that same god I don’t believe in??? Your job is to try to support every single word and my job is to try and keep a straight face through the process. Evangelizing to me is not going to get you anywhere particularly when you make a flat statement like “Evolution doesn't work”. Do you have any idea how much knowledge these three words attempts to flushes down the toilet … like EVERYTHING … besides your book, of course.

Skeptic Bible Study: Creation (Just a Metaphor?)      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTlSVk3LCYA&feature=relmfu

 

PS- Stupid is as stupid does … you make your own bed, not me

The intellectual dishonesty comes in where you don't consider the book BECAUSE you don't believe in God.  If I don't believe in cats, and therefore, I don't believe any books written about cats, that doesn't mean cats don't exist - it means I'm letting assumptions become reality.  If someone holds up a cat to me I could say 'That's not a cat!' but it doesn't make it true.  You're doing that with God.  That assumption there is what makes your beliefs beliefs and not facts.

If you want to believe that and base everything on that, that's fine.  I have no problem with that.  It's just more faith than I have to take God out of the equation so absolutely like that.

I thought Atheists were people who didn't believe in God due to the lack of convincing evidence of his existence, but I suppose some of you could be people who just decided, of their own accord, that God doesn't exist and don't really care about evidence.

Ok (???) You believe the bible is the word of god but is only proper reveled with the proper interpretation and the proper assumptions, all to be determined by people you never heard of and will never even talk to. Does that about sum it up? I just believe … differently. What do real cats have to do with an imaginary god??? Try to run this scenario but this time pick something as elusive and improvable as your god is, like the ‘proverbial tea pot in space’ or Allah or YHWH instead. Yea, intellectual honesty on display for sure. When you believe in a book about a god that exists only outside the perceptions of reality … then you are just have a belief in the book and it doesn’t matter what it says because it is always right … it says so in the book. I don’t make assumptions on serious matters but you sure like the word???

I know why religions despise knowledge, it is so simple. If humanity were to get smarter, they would invent cheap computers to analyze and dissect Bronze Age mythology and make the results readily available to anyone. God forbid ... the atheists have them too ... and with the internet and all, well bad times are ahead for religious orthodoxy IMO. This is one of the best clips I have found on the creation myth.

The Bible: The Old Testament   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj1rNz5YD8M&NR=1&feature=endscreen

BT writes: Personally I like the Book of Genesis as it makes an interesting read if one is into strange fantasy.  In The beginning there was either nothing or something depending on your point of view. 

Hi ya, GFT.

I see you, with the help of your UTube video friend, are at it again....practicing "your point of view", Atheism--a negation being centered primarily upon undermining belief in God. 

 

 

 

The problem here is that you as a believer are trying to tell me the atheist … how and why to be an atheist, a little biased don’t you think? Well I wouldn't waste a second trying to tell you why or how to be a Christian so whatever floats your boat. I personally do not believe in any god because by their own volition, they are undetectable to humanity. And because of this, god could not possibly have written or even influenced scripture. And that tells me they are all made up by illiterate peasant Jews who just didn’t know better … because they couldn’t. And that explains the need for the ‘Jesus Myth’

If there is any wonder why there is confusion between the scientific and religious proponents, this clip amply shows why. What could you expect when trying to compare real apples to invisible oranges so to speak, hahaha. This is a scientific view trying to comply with creation.

The Bible Revisited: Genesis 2.0   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9EVMzVQKTk

Hello Lula, I see you haven't changed either. I just don't believe in god ... assume whatever else you like. Whatever happened to "a picture is worth a thousand words", probably just an atheist ploy, whatever? (I still haven’t seen the movie, but I will)

The question you need to be asking is, what do real or imagined cats have to do with a real or imagined God?

Do you even know the God I'm talking about?  I mean, you really should know what you've chosen not to believe in, unless you have something you're actually believing in.  So if you believe in macro-evolution which took a molecule into a man, MAYBE you can get to where you want to be, but you still can't explain how a brain able to be clever enough to speak, a throat enabling speech, and a voicebox all developed out of a mutation at the same time AND language was able to even develop out of that.  Does speech really make sense to evolutionists?  Okay, and that's still within just a single species.  You also expect me to believe that, though the fossil record never shows it, small mutations in organisms over a long period of time took a single cell and turned it into humans.  You expect me to believe not only that, but that somehow, cells just sort of appeared through some other random chance over billions of years.  Yet nobody can reproduce any positive mutation even when they're going out of their way to try and get one.  They're all negative.  So, if scientists TRYING to get a positive mutation can't do it, why would nature, through random chance, be able to do it?

Oh okay.  Enjoy your religion.  Eventually you will die, and end up in intense pain for all eternity.  And that's going to suck.  My thought was always, well, if I die and nothing happens, that's all fine.  If I die and I'm going to be judged by God, I might want to examine the evidence of this God just a little bit closer and make sure.  But if you're sure, then I guess we're done here.

BT writes: 

Personally I like the Book of Genesis as it makes an interesting read if one is into strange fantasy.

Exactly.

Instead of reading it and thinking about what it says with an intellectually straight mind, GFTess is enslaved through her predisposition that the Book of Genesis is "strange fantasy" and "irrational". Pure atheist sloganeering that's been played ten thousand times. Reading Genesis with the idea to investigate in order to learn the truth is not in the Atheist mind. They read it strictly to deny God all the more. They shore each other up by poking fun and ridiculing it.

 The OP is entitled, "A leap of faith". It's true, in the case of understanding Genesis, faith is the starting point of our study. But Faith builds, being the base from which right reasoning proceeds to sublime conclusions.

Atheists must be shown before they believe, so they say. But that's not entirely true. Do you believe gravity exists? Of course you do, even though you've never seen it and some scientists have called gravitation, the mystery of mysteries.  I'm sure you have a very intelligent answer when I ask what is the law of gravity. Gravity is but one of a thousand things taken upon faith by famous scientists.  

So believers in God combine faith, reason and science and come to understand something about the truths of Genesis.

 

BT writes in the OP......

Personally I like the Book of Genesis as it makes an interesting read if one is into strange fantasy.  In The beginning there was either nothing or something depending on your point of view. It is strange but let’s take a look at the nothing concept first:

DAY 1: In The beginning there was nothing but darkness and out of the darkness came the One God who always was … in the darkness? Well eventually God became tired (?) of the darkness after however long and decided to have a go at empire building. God created the heavens and the earth from the dark nothingness. But the earth was without form however spiritually He was still able to ‘hover’ above the surface of the waters of the formless earth, some trick there. So God brought light into existence and managed to separate it from the dark somehow all the while wondering what the “????” had made Him live in the dark sooo long (at least the first half of infinity anyway).

 
DAY 2: This whole day was spent making Heaven to separate the waters above from the waters below. I would think that omnipotent and all-knowing could have made this whole six day process happen pronto like. As concerns the all-knowing part … why bother when you already know you will be destroying your creations anyway??? As a curiosity, I wonder where Heaven is supposed to be besides in the minds of the blind.
 
DAY 3: God then proceeded to gather all the water below heaven into one place so there could be land but is vague on why this displaced water didn’t flow back where it was happy. This must have been relatively easy though because there was still time on the third day to seed the entire flat earth with fruit bearing trees and grains.
 
DAY 4: God forgot he had already created light on DAY 1 but He created the stars anyway and placed them in Heaven so the sheeple to come could discern day from night and tell time.  Then He put the Sun and moon in the sky at the exact right distance for human life (so far unknown) to flourish.
 
DAY 5: God populated the earth with every living flying and swimming organism able to claim the breath of life. Now it might be pointed out here that countless animals have come and gone as well as whole species so this day I think was completely wasted or at best quite unsuccessful.
 
DAY 6: Here God populated the earth with all the animals and crawly things that were to exist??? This is where we come in, the sheeple. Lastly and I suppose this is where the problems creep in because he was so tired by now … He created man from the dirt and woman from man and gave them dominion over all other life on earth. How could they be given dominion over other people as there were no others?
 
DAY 7: God the all-powerful and all-knowing had to rest on the Sabbath to recover His weariness from creating everything from nothing out of the darkness of nothingness. Oh did I mention that in time because God was so exhausted from what should have been a finger snap, that he would have put to death anyone who is bold enough to work on Sunday, go figure. As we are just into Genesis part 2 of 50 … there is quite a bit to cover still, but I thought people would like to know how they and the entire Universe came into being is all. These are the only facts and only the facts, so help me God.

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Well, you've given your rendition of what you think Genesis means. Now, I'll give you my rendition of your rendition. 

BT's interpretation of Genesis is what is strange fantasy.

This, together with that which your UTube video friend says, is thoughtless thought GOING ON.

 

GFT and her UTUBE video friend take the Book of Genesis.  They read but they do not read. they see words. Their head is in a whirl. They turn the page. There is nothing. It means nothing. Nothing is anything. There isn't anything that means anything. They look at the beginning. They look at the end. There is no beginning at the beginning, either. They think there is no beginning and on and on and on...... 

 

 

 

 

 

That’s better, enough with the silly meaningless nonsense. I can prove a cat exists in a NY minute and your faith or belief just aren’t needed or required … doesn’t work the other way.

According to religious folk there is only one god (depends who you ask though) so where is the confusion??? You would be better informed if you actually read some scientific literature as opposed to spouting theological talking points. In effect, you are trying to tell me that the smarter we get as a species … the dumber we actually become, get a life. I really don’t expect you to believe anything because you have already told me you believe in ‘empty space’ which means your mind is already impervious to reality. Whenever you are handed all the answers to every question dictated to you by who knows who, are not permitted to question one single word (pain of hell, what else), are expressly forbidden to request proof or investigate any other possibilities (yea, hell x 2) and cannot have any opinions that aren’t sanctioned and dictated to you by your betters. Alarm bells galore here!!!

Well this is usually the last card pulled out whenever irrational people try to rationalize their beliefs and cannot … simply because they are irrational WTF??? I don’t know what you think is so good about an eternity in heaven anyway unless basking in his glory forever takes on new meaning … forever ever! Hope you prove stronger than many of his first perfect mystical creations were, because you wouldn’t want a seat waiting for you next to me. It is difficult to play with the absurdity; but I guess I would acclimate to the pain way before you begin un-basking (that means think for yourself) and that brings Satan to mind and the unpleasant surprises for those with merely flawed human faith, down the road … We never even got started, not on an honest level anyway.

 

A joke right; Lula if you believe in gravity and I believe in gravity then what is there to prove and who are we supposed to prove it to??? Ok is it to be one at a time or can we group them together in bunches to speed this up?

I typed the word ‘Gravitation’ into Wiki and this is the first paragraph (what confusion???) that popped up and this will do nicely for me:

Gravitation, or gravity, is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their masses. Gravitation is most familiar as the agent that gives weight to objects with mass and causes them to fall to the ground when dropped. Gravitation causes dispersed matter to coalesce, and coalesced matter to remain intact, thus accounting for the existence of the Earth, the Sun, and most of the macroscopic objects in the universe.

Next please!!!

If this makes sense to someone not already in lala-land, please inform me??? Come on now; Step one: prove that god exists so I can have something to actually believe in, step two: everything else ... but you cannot even begin to accomplish #1 until you have been brainwashed with the nonsense in #2. This is purely circular logic and it is intellectually dishonest.

I don't have to assume anything...I'm just going by what you've written here.

No, only minutes into this video proves it is not the scientific view trying to comply with the Creation account in Genesis. 

For example, Take the opening verses of Genesis. What happened on Day One?

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth." 

Look at that! Reading Scripture just as it is even though it gives us a bare outline, we must accept a few things....

1---that Almighty God tells us that He created the Earth first..three days before the sun, moon, and stars which do not appear until the Fourth Day.....but that's not what modern science tells us is it? No, the Stellar Evolutionary and Big Bang concepts reject this. 

2---that the Light created on the First Day is prior to and independent of the light radiating from the sun and stars from the Fourth Day.

3---that the creation of an expansive firmament on the Second Day that rests in outer space and upon which waters rest.

Modern science dogmatically insists that the universe came into being with a "Big Bang" which originated from a cosmological "singularity" some of which, over billions of years, evolved into objects such as our Earth. Yet,  Genesis 1 teaches that the Earth appeared first before anything remotely resembling a "Big Bang" ever occurred and which after billions of years produced it. 

Which one is the real apples? 

This idea of "in the beginning" is starting to resonate with some scientists (and not just the orthodox Christian ones) who are starting to distant themselves from the "Big Bang" theory.The flaws in the BB cosmology are appearing in scientific journals. 

 

 

 

 

God is real.  You'll find out soon enough.  That's the problem, see.  I've seen a cat.  I've seen God working.  I've seen what Jesus does in my life.  So I am not believing blindly, but seeing His work and reacting in the only manner that makes sense.

Continuing to cross off the truth doesn't make it less true.  It just makes me sad, because everyone should end up in heaven, with Jesus who loves you, even though you would rather not bother with facts and instead watch YouTube videos that tell you what to think...

I listen to pastor preach with my critical thinking ears on, because pastor is just a man.  I read the Bible and interpret it for myself, but it also makes sense to review what others who have come before said, so sometimes I'll use that to help me understand. 

Your entire position comes from the fact that you've been told something and now you're taking their word for it with no independent observation or thought, and that is sad.  Macroevolution leading to humans only makes sense if you eliminate God from the picture... then how could we be here?  We'll just have to make up some story that lets humans get here... we come from animals, which come from blah blah blah.  So because you have to explain it, without a creator, you make up something that sort of makes sense, like, parts of it, but doesn't really make sense when you actually try to reproduce it or even just put a little brain power into it.  Look at what goes on now and project backwards.  Species do not change into other species now, so why are we assuming they did?  The only reason - to eliminate a creator.

Look at a cell.  Just look at it.  Look at the way it works, the way the building blocks were designed.  Someone designed that.  It didn't happen by accident.  The deeper scientists look into life, the more they discover how very complicated life is.  There is no way that it could have just occurred naturally.  Never mind that though.  That's not 'fact' enough for you.

Hi Lula!  Even though I almost never agree with you, I still missed you a bit!

Lula, does the word parody mean anything to you, just wondering, lost your funny bone too I see, huh? I was watching a video and I remember hearing “religious folk dislike biblical humor more than anything”, now I understand better. I just don’t know of a simpler way than tell you (whomever) that I do not believe in your (their) god and therefore whatever is printed about him (her (it)) is as useful to me as teats are to a male boar. Circular logic just doesn’t work for atheists which is why religions don’t work for us either. Science is what it is and it doesn’t require your belief, your concurrence or your (or your church’s) acceptance … it is what it is. You just pick out the Catholic appeasement clause you want or one that can be manipulated to ‘justify’ some fiction or another and then you regurgitate the contents and think you actually know something??? If you want to understand science then you have to read a real science book … Not just RCC-C. Scientists just don’t publish there is all so their opinions cannot be found their either.

Believers do not need to see God for proof and belief of His existence.

Atheists must be shown before they believe, so they say. 

Oh c'mon GFTess. 

My point stands. Even you must believe things by faith. I'm just pointing out that you (and I and all of us) believe gravity exists upon faith...not becasue you ( we) have seen gravity. 

You believe gravity exists upon faith in whom? Faith in scientists and what they have told you about gravity  including its definition. 

Told ya..you'd have a very intelligent answer. 

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Sir John Hershel, the discoverer of Uranus and its satellites called gravitation, the "mystery of mysteries". You can decide if he was a real scientist or not. 

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Scientists believe Electricity exists but science does not know what electricity is in substance. 

Scientists believe Darwinian, neo-Darwinism and Stellar Evolution on faith in random chance.

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Concerning faith I've said this before....

God's revealed religion, the Holy Bible and Science call for belief by both faith and study. Faith proceeds all study. True Religion begins with Divine Faith that will not deceive; whereas science begins with human faith that is fallible.   It's utterly impossible to study them without accepting first principles upon faith, without faith in the respective teachers. Science and true religion begins with mysteries, truths which are not fully understood. 

Gravity and electricity are natural mysteries yet their manifestations prove their existence. 

Well, same with God. "The heavens show forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the works of his hands."  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where did gravity come from? 

 

 

 

Hi Jythier, 

 

Great that you're posting again.  I'm finding we agree quite a bit here. 

 

We certainly agree on this one.

Bingo on this one too.

Atheism is a denial of the ultimate cause and designer of things, including the law of our being; including the law of gravity.