SageWon SageWon

1.19 BETA/1.2 Buffs AREN'T ENOUGH

1.19 BETA/1.2 Buffs AREN'T ENOUGH

Carrier Caps are still TOO Strong, likely the primary Cap ship used online.

I would like to  see more viable starting Cap ships (rather than just Carrier & Colony caps).  Or support caps that are viable later in the game. 

I tested each of the new buffed abilities against the strongest caps  (carriers) in 1 on 1 fights.   None of the buffed abilities made much of a difference (except Magnetize against a Halcyon).  ALL of these buffed caps ships (except the Marza) are SO WEAK, that they barely scratched the carrier cap hulls after taking down the shields.  In almost every case, the carrier caps won with over 1,500 hull remaining when they killed the opposing buffed cap.  I just don't see many reasons to pick them over a carrier.

Battleships and support caps really NEED some more offensive power, some how, some way.  First, these buffs generally need to be increased.  And/or, as I have suggested elsewhere, add a starting squad for these level 1 caps.  (Support would start with 2 squads, and battleships start with one, rather than 1 and none).  Or other improvements.

Since this is a BETA we could test additional buffs.  Like I said before, the BETA is a good start, but more is needed.

Tested in one on one fights, after jumping into a dead asteroid (LAN games with our 2 computers, on Pandemonium).  The level 1 carrier caps always had bombers, whereas competitors had a fighter if available.  Many of the opposing caps leveled up during the fight (from killing bombers), but I never chose additional abilities.  They always started the fight down 100 antimatter, since the fight started after jumping into the dead asteroid.  The results of victor's hull remaining upon opponent's death, are summarized in the following table:

...........................................................Hull Remaining...............................

.................................versus:   Skirantra...........    Halcyon..............   Sova
.............................................Scram Bomb..........Adept Drone A.......Missile Batt.
...............original hull+shield=   2425+1275........   2075+1600.........  2850+1075

Kol.........Gauss R Gun.................1633......................1350.....................2075
Kol.........Flak Burst......................2125......................1900.....................2300

Dunov.....EMP Blast  w/fighter........1250......................1700.....................2200
Donov.....Magnetize w/fighter........2150......................~100.....................2500

Marza.....Incend. Shells..................800........................300.....................1100 850


Radiance.Absorb Armor.................2000......................1700.....................2200

Rapture...Vertigo  w/fighter............2175.......................800.....................2550


Antorak...Distort Grav w/fighter.......2100.....................1800.....................2450

Vulkoras..Phase Miss Swarm...........1450.....................1000....................2030


Edit:  No Micro.  Auto attack only - no kiting, or avoiding turrets/batteries.  Most of which would further improve Carrier Caps results!

Edit:  As of the 1.21 patch, and the well deserved nerf to bombers, these numbers are no longer applicable.

37,591 views 60 replies
Reply #51 Top

Quoting Arthanis, reply 50
Sorry, I didn't notice how old this thread is. My bad, sorry.

It's really not that old.  All the numbers from the original post still apply today (except for the Marza numbers, since they fixed its bug).  They didn't make any Cap ship changes from 1.19 to 1.2, despite our recommendations.  Maybe the next patch.

I think all of my conclusions are still valid, and subsequently have been proven in multiplayer play.  Carrier caps still dominate almost exclusively.  (It could have been titled: 1.2 Buffs aren't enough).

I think most of your recommendations are good, but #4 goes too far, and IMO may not be necessary at all.  #7 is also too radical - making flak too important, fighters are the counter to Bombers.  It all may be all way too much! 

Like Rowanlad & Ue-Carbon, I think that simply only reducing bomber's modifier against Cap ships would go a long way toward curing Carrier cap dominance.  Darvin also said "I think the best route to approach this would probably be a bomber nerf" here in reply #8.

Reply #52 Top

Quoting Arthanis, reply 46
4 Anti-medium weapons (LRFs) damage vs caps should be decreased to 25% (from 75%)

Wow! did you really mean decrease 25% making the modifier 50% (from 75%). Otherwise this is sorta lame.

 

 

Reply #53 Top

Since you brought this back to the top, I decided to reveal more 1vs1 fight results.  (I will probably redo this in Excel, and repost in Strategy section).

Tested level One Cap ships in one on one fights, after jumping into a dead asteroid (LAN games with our 2 computers, on Pandemonium).  The level 1 carrier caps always had bombers, whereas competitors had a fighter if available.  Many of the opposing caps leveled up during the fight (from killing bombers), but I never chose additional abilities.  They always started the fight down 100 antimatter, since the fight started after jumping into the dead asteroid.  No Micro. Auto attack only - no kiting, or avoiding turrets/batteries.  The results of victor's hull remaining upon opponent's death, are summarized in the following table:

...........................................................Hull Remaining...............................

.................................versus:   Skirantra...........    Halcyon..............   Sova
.............................................Scram Bomb..........Adept Drone A.......Missile Batt.
...............original hull+shield=   2425+1275........   2075+1600.........  2850+1075

Kol.........Gauss R Gun.................1633......................1350.....................2075
Kol.........Flak Burst......................2125......................1900.....................2300

Sova......Miss Batt w/bombers.......(500)......................(900).....................-----

Akkan....Target Up  w/fighter.........2025......................1100.....................

Dunov.....EMP Blast  w/fighter........1250......................1700.....................2200
Donov.....Magnetize w/fighter........2150......................~100.....................2500

Marza.....Incend. Shells..................???........................???........................850



Radiance.Absorb Armor.................2000......................1700.....................2200

Halcyon...Adept DA w/bombers........600.......................-----......................900

Mothersh.Restore Sh w/fighter........1000.....................(400)....................2200

Rapture...Vertigo  w/fighter............2175.......................800.....................2550
Rapture...Vengence w/fight............1750......................(800)....................2300

Revelation.Clairvoyance................1600.......................????.....................2100



Kortul.....Power Surge.....................625.......................500......................1450
Kortul.....Jam Weapons..................1500.....................1350......................2150
Kortul.....Disruptive Strikes.............1575.....................

Skirantra.Scram Bomb w/bombers...-----.....................(600)......................500

Jarrasul...Nano Dissas w/fighter......430-800................(100)......................1300

Antorak...Distort Grav w/fighter.......2100.....................1800......................2450

Vulkoras..Phase Miss Swarm...........1450.....................1000......................2030


Question marks: ???? means I didn't complete that test (or blank).  Dash: ---- means it's fighting against itself, so no data.  Parenthesis: (xxx) means a negative number, or that the Cap ship in the row won the battle.


Reply #54 Top

I know it is drastic (and possibly stupidly drastic), but notice one thing - even if we give lrf so huge nerf against capitals, they still have an advanatge over caps because of their superior range. This nerf affect mostly early game, where small group of lrfs will not be able to kill cap before it do some doamage back. At the lategame huge swarm of LRFs will still op caps like baloons, just because of huge range advantage... I don't say 50% is not better balanced, but something must be done to lrf-cap interaction.

 

There is also other solution to caps dieing too fast in the lategame:

 

Tier 6 (or 7)  two-level upgrade on Military tree giving following:

- 10% Damage buff to all caps (20% fully upgraded)

- 10% buff to caps maximum shields and regeneration (20% fully upgraded)

- 10% buff to caps maximum health and regeneration (20% fully upgraded)

It is easy solution to make caps more powerful lategame without making them too strong early game.

 

 

We can also make different upgrades for each race:

 

 

TEC:

- 10% Damage buff to all caps (20% fully upgraded)

- 10% buff to caps maximum shields and regeneration (20% fully upgraded)

- 15% buff to caps maximum health and regeneration (30% fully upgraded)

 

Advent:

- 10% Damage buff to all caps (20% fully upgraded)

- 15% buff to caps maximum shields and regeneration (30% fully upgraded)

- 10% buff to caps maximum health and regeneration (20% fully upgraded)

 

Vasari:

- 15% Damage buff to all caps (30% fully upgraded)

- 10% buff to caps maximum shields and regeneration (20% fully upgraded)

- 10% buff to caps maximum health and regeneration (20% fully upgraded)

 

 

What do you think? :)

 

 

Reply #55 Top

Quoting Arthanis, reply 54
I know it is drastic (and possibly stupidly drastic), but notice one thing - even if we give lrf so huge nerf against capitals, they still have an advanatge over caps because of their superior range. This nerf affect mostly early game, where small group of lrfs will not be able to kill cap before it do some doamage back. At the lategame huge swarm of LRFs will still op caps like baloons, just because of huge range advantage.

Range is not that important.  In most cases, all it really gives, is the first shot.  Yeah, some of this is "possibly stupidly drastic".  You said it, not me.

Reply #56 Top

Range isn't a big deal in an open "field battle", but the moment immobile assets such as starbases or repair platforms come into play, range can have an immense strategic importance.  Honestly, if you want to make LRF less effective against capital ships knock down their speed to 450.  This will largely prevent them from chasing after faster capital ships, relegating that role to faster units such as light frigates, heavy cruisers, and bombers.

Reply #57 Top

Quoting SageWon, reply 51

Like Rowanlad & Ue-Carbon, I think that simply only reducing bomber's modifier against Cap ships would go a long way toward curing Carrier cap dominance.  Darvin also said "I think the best route to approach this would probably be a bomber nerf" here in reply #8.

They took our suggestion, and applied it in the 1.21 patch.  Bombers' damage modifier against Cap ships was reduced to .60 from .75, so most of the tables above are no longer applicable.

Reply #58 Top

We still have two problems:

- LRFs being too effective vs caps

- Caps dieing too fast during lategame

 

 

Reply #59 Top

the bbr nerf helps with the caps dieing to fast late game... I think a slight speed reduction to lrms would give caps just enough bit more survivablity against them.

Reply #60 Top

IMO better way is anti-medium damage reduction against capitals... 75% is definitely too much.

 

What about increasing health/DPS bonuses given to caps by leveling them?