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1.19 BETA/1.2 Buffs AREN'T ENOUGH

1.19 BETA/1.2 Buffs AREN'T ENOUGH

Carrier Caps are still TOO Strong, likely the primary Cap ship used online.

I would like to  see more viable starting Cap ships (rather than just Carrier & Colony caps).  Or support caps that are viable later in the game. 

I tested each of the new buffed abilities against the strongest caps  (carriers) in 1 on 1 fights.   None of the buffed abilities made much of a difference (except Magnetize against a Halcyon).  ALL of these buffed caps ships (except the Marza) are SO WEAK, that they barely scratched the carrier cap hulls after taking down the shields.  In almost every case, the carrier caps won with over 1,500 hull remaining when they killed the opposing buffed cap.  I just don't see many reasons to pick them over a carrier.

Battleships and support caps really NEED some more offensive power, some how, some way.  First, these buffs generally need to be increased.  And/or, as I have suggested elsewhere, add a starting squad for these level 1 caps.  (Support would start with 2 squads, and battleships start with one, rather than 1 and none).  Or other improvements.

Since this is a BETA we could test additional buffs.  Like I said before, the BETA is a good start, but more is needed.

Tested in one on one fights, after jumping into a dead asteroid (LAN games with our 2 computers, on Pandemonium).  The level 1 carrier caps always had bombers, whereas competitors had a fighter if available.  Many of the opposing caps leveled up during the fight (from killing bombers), but I never chose additional abilities.  They always started the fight down 100 antimatter, since the fight started after jumping into the dead asteroid.  The results of victor's hull remaining upon opponent's death, are summarized in the following table:

...........................................................Hull Remaining...............................

.................................versus:   Skirantra...........    Halcyon..............   Sova
.............................................Scram Bomb..........Adept Drone A.......Missile Batt.
...............original hull+shield=   2425+1275........   2075+1600.........  2850+1075

Kol.........Gauss R Gun.................1633......................1350.....................2075
Kol.........Flak Burst......................2125......................1900.....................2300

Dunov.....EMP Blast  w/fighter........1250......................1700.....................2200
Donov.....Magnetize w/fighter........2150......................~100.....................2500

Marza.....Incend. Shells..................800........................300.....................1100 850


Radiance.Absorb Armor.................2000......................1700.....................2200

Rapture...Vertigo  w/fighter............2175.......................800.....................2550


Antorak...Distort Grav w/fighter.......2100.....................1800.....................2450

Vulkoras..Phase Miss Swarm...........1450.....................1000....................2030


Edit:  No Micro.  Auto attack only - no kiting, or avoiding turrets/batteries.  Most of which would further improve Carrier Caps results!

Edit:  As of the 1.21 patch, and the well deserved nerf to bombers, these numbers are no longer applicable.

37,571 views 60 replies
Reply #26 Top

fighters fail at countering bombers lol

only a few flak in the grav well kill all fighters pretty easily and quickly

if flak were slightly nerfed against fighters...

then bombers would actualy have a viable counter

problem is so many people spam flak...

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Pbhead, reply 25
There are not nearly enough numbers here. 

Seriously.  More numbers....

HP:

Initial:

advent:  42hp/fighter*9 = 378hp/squad     78.75hp/bomber*7 = 551.25 hp/squad

Vasari: 97.75hp/fighter*4 = 391hp/squad  175hp/bomber*3 = 525 hp/squad

TEC: 63hp/fighter*6 = 378hp/squad           110hp/bomber*5 = 550 hp/squad

Max upgrades (no pacts):

Advent: 65hp/fighter*9 = 585hp/squad   121.875hp/bomber*7 = 853.125 hp/squad

Vasari: 154.7hp/fighter*4 = 618.8hp/squad  273hp/bomber*3 = 819 hp/squad

TEC: 105.3hp/fighter*6 = 631.8hp/squad           182hp/bomber*5 = 910 hp/squad

DAMAGE:  (all fighters have 12 second cooldown, all bombers have 13.5 second cooldown)

advent:  16damage/fighter*9 = 144damage/squad     34.41damage/bomber*7 = 240.87damage/squad

Vasari: 30.75damage/fighter*4 = 123damage/squad  76.9damage/bomber*3 = 230.7 damage/squad

TEC: 19.5damage/fighter*6 = 117damage/squad           44.4damage/bomber*5 = 222 damage/squad

Max upgrades (no pacts):

advent:  20.8damage/fighter*9 = 187.2damage/squad     44.73damage/bomber*7 = 313.13damage/squad

(vs no shields, raw damage)

Vasari: 36.9damage/fighter*4 = 147.6damage/squad  92.28damage/bomber*3 = 276.84 damage/squad

(vs 60% shield mitigation, normalized for comparison )

Vasari: 53.5damage/fighter*4 = 214damage/squad  133.8damage/bomber*3 = 401.42 damage/squad

(vs 70% mitigation (lv5 cap), normalized for comparison) ^^^ so close!!11

Vasari: 62.73damage/fighter*4 = 250.92damage/squad  156.876damage/bomber*3 = 470.63 damage/squad

TEC: 25.35damage/fighter*6 = 152.1damage/squad           57.72damage/bomber*5 = 288.6 damage/squad

 

Hokey. SO.

flack do Advent:  18 dps  Tec: 15.33 dps  Vas: 16.33 dps (normalizing to 4 fleet supply...: 13.067)

Upgraded:  Advent: 23.4 Tec: 19.93 dps Vas: 19.6 dps (normalizing to 4 fleet supply...: 15.68)

Now, damage modifiers...

Flack vs Fighters has 75%*1.333 = 100%  (which... for a counter is very low mind you.

fighters vs fighters has 65% *100% =65%  (which... is pathetic.)

 Flack vs bombers is 75% * 75% = 56.25%  (which... is slighly more effective than throwing your flack at heavy cruisers)

fighters vs bombers is 75% * 200% = 150% (which... should be effective.)

SO... assuming everything is in range and stuff... and every gun can fire (ha!)...  

(well, honestly... its not that simple... one needs to take into account the fact that... well, a LOT of damage is wasted on overkilling fighters/bombers...) More is wasted on flack guns sitting idle (worst case senerio = hold position = 1/4 damage done.... 1/2 damage if you micro well...

Anyway... (unupgraded)

 it takes an advent flack frig (best) 16 shots to kill a vasari fighter squad... : 20 seconds.

it takes an advent flack frig 47 shots to kill a an advent bomber squad... : 58.33 seconds.

it takes an advent fighter squad 21 shots for it to kill an advent bomber squad. : 37.3 seconds.

it takes an advent fighter squad 27 shots for it to kill an advent fighter squad : 55.4 seconds

If we assume that the strike craft commander is not a complete moron... we can go ahead and double the flack vs stuff kill times...

So... maybe hopefully... it should take just as long as a flack frig to kill a fighter squad as it takes a fighter squad to kill a bomber squad.  And it takes about 3x as long for a flack frig to kill a bomber squad than it takes a fighter squad to kill a bomber squad. 

And i really should have done this stuff in excell or something... but unless someone has some imput... i think i am done for a bit.

 

That's some very nice numbers you've got there. But from spending 2 weeks of making a balance mod where I rebalanced the fighters vs flak thing I quickly saw that the advent flak was insanely superior to the flak of the other races. To make it equal to the flak of the other races I had to lower it's DPS below that of the other races. And the reason for that was very unexpected. It was because the advent flak has 6 gunports and that seemed to allow it to bring fire on enemy fighters a lot more effectively then the TEC and Vasari.

 

Reply #28 Top

hmmm... that honestly does not make sence.  I mean...

 

NumWeapons 1
Weapon
 WeaponType "Projectile"
 damageEnums
  AttackType "ANTIVERYLIGHT"
  DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
  DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
  DamageType "ENERGY"
  WeaponClassType "LASERPSI"
 DamagePerBank:FRONT 22.500000
 DamagePerBank:BACK 22.500000
 DamagePerBank:LEFT 22.500000
 DamagePerBank:RIGHT 22.500000
 Range 3900.000000
 PreBuffCooldownTime 5.000000
 CanFireAtFighter TRUE

 

??

Reply #29 Top

Gunports make absolutely no difference, its just there to look cool. Must be something else.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 29
Gunports make absolutely no difference, its just there to look cool. Must be something else.

Hehe your telling that to the guy that actually tested it and adjusted it. Trust me I didn't believe it. But eve after making the DPS of the advent flak good below the DPS of the other flak frigs it was still outperforming the otehr flak's. I has to nerf the damn thing A LOT to make it on equal footing with the other races. The 6 gun-ports instead of 4 makes a difference and the  only reason I could ofve is because the ROF is independent on each gun-port. Not to mention that that each gun-port also seems to have it's own firering arc instead of the standard 90° front, left, right, back. Hard to believe yes but true the extra gun-ports has a huge effect and are far from just being for looks.

Reply #31 Top

I'm not following you either. The Weapon effects has no bearing on the actual damage per second which includes the weapon points. Regardless of how many weapon points you have the target count per bank is still 1 and the damage per second is still the damage per bank/duration.

Also, advent defense vessels only have 4 banks with 1 target per bank the same as Vas and TECH. Why do you think they have 6?

 

Reply #32 Top

gun ports are not there 'just to look cool'

where LRM only fire forward

flak can fire on all sides, just like ilums sidebeams

this splits the damage up but makes it hit more targets at once

Reply #33 Top

gun ports are not there 'just to look cool'

Yes, the visual aspect is for coolness. 20 missile ports on the front of a LRM does not do more damage than if there was 1 port on the LRM.

Reply #34 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 31
I'm not following you either. The Weapon effects has no bearing on the actual damage per second which includes the weapon points. Regardless of how many weapon points you have the target count per bank is still 1 and the damage per second is still the damage per bank/duration.

Also, advent defense vessels only have 4 banks with 1 target per bank the same as Vas and TECH. Why do you think they have 6?

 

 

Because I did the testing. For advent flak to perform on par with the other flak I had to nerf it's DPS to below that of the otehr flaks. Only then would it perform on equal footing. If what you are saying is true you would be able to take the TEC flak stats stamp them on the advent flak stats and voila get identical performance. I tried it, but guest what!!!! Advent flak still mopped the flow with fighters like mad compared to the others. At the time and even today to me their is no denying the results. Note that since that testing has occurred players have identified the mysterious extra illum damage and IC has fixed it. Was the advent flak weapon also suffering from the same effect I don't know but doubt since the bug seems to only apply to beam weapons. Your arguing with logic and pulling out the stats witch is all very good and nice theory. However I went past the theory and did all of the controlled experimentation. And my results where that their was something at work that the theory did not account for. Also if a shooting effect is displaying then dmg is applied for effects are only generated when the weapon fired to do dmg.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 33

gun ports are not there 'just to look cool'
Yes, the visual aspect is for coolness. 20 missile ports on the front of a LRM does not do more damage than if there was 1 port on the LRM.

Those 20 port sin question are 1 port. Generating 1 effect. The 6 gun ports on the advent flak are not aesthetics, their actually 6 from what I could test generating 1 effect each, 1 dmg value each.

Reply #36 Top

Simple test: Remove the graphics effects. The engine can't do more than the four predefined banks.

 

:fox:

Reply #37 Top

Perhaps you can share some actual evidence of your testing, because as far as I can tell, magic doesn't exist in the real world.

Reply #38 Top

Those 20 port sin question are 1 port. Generating 1 effect. The 6 gun ports on the advent flak are not aesthetics, their actually 6 from what I could test generating 1 effect each, 1 dmg value each.

True, but only because the burst count is set to 1. The damage wouldn't change if the burst count was set to 2,5,10,etc.

And, again there are only 4 banks possible... Unless you modified the maximum number of targets per bank. Did you?

There are six weapon points on the Psi defense vessel, so it's possible it looks like it is firing at six targets but the number of targets per bank is still 1, which leaves 4 possible targets being fired on for each volley.

 

Reply #39 Top

Proof???? Are you kidding me. Think I'll go bust my ass again testing for 4 hours. You can do it by your self. 10 carrier vs 20 flak and start a timer. Time the amount of time it takes from flak to suppress the fighters. Repeat the experiment a minimum of 3 times for each race vs race.

Experiment have carriers warp in and hold position with fighetrs docked. Wait till AM fully recharge and lower the damage of fighetrs VS heavy armor to 1%.

Warp in 20 flaks on hold position place then about half way across the grav (recommend you can place markers to repeat tests)  well from carriers. Release fighters and start the time. When the total number of squads in space reaches 1/2 the starting amount or they are only 1-2 SC per squad stop the timer.

In each initial test the advent flak constantly out performed the other flak's. I has also removed the build penalty for having enemy forces in the grav well. Out of those test I also discover it was impossible to make advent carriers run out of AM but killing their SC, unlike the other races.

Reply #40 Top

better idea... let the fighters hold position and the flack autoattack.  the flak'll stay out of fighter range, and only use a single bank.

 bonus points if you change the fighter build rate in grav well penelty to 9999999999% so no new fighters are built.

If you think you have found an illumbug on flack frigs... your going to need some replays, and some comparisons to some theoretical numbers.

 

Dont forget to take overkill into account... with tier 1 hull upgrades, advent flack should kill advent fighters in 2 vollies... while itll take tec flack 3 vollies to kill a single fighter... even though their dps is almost the same.... but it will make advent flack appear 3/2 better.

 

 

Your also wrong about the lack of antimatter running out for the advent carriers.  they have .6 regen compared to .4 of the other carriers, but they also have to create 50% more strike craft.  Set the carriers to bombers.... you will run out of antimatter, I guarentee it.

Reply #41 Top

Hold position on fighters does not reflect real combat and thus invalidate the test in it's self for it takes away the time period that a fighter would be out of range and healing it's self. The healing period can make the difference between dieing on the next volley or the one after that. Thus meaning higher efficiency of your SC. It also spreads out the dmg more evenly over all of your squads instead of having some getting picked on and others ignored. This affects the ability of your fleet to regenerate it's SC and affects the whole longevity of the SC swarm in general.

Add it's a timed experiment. So when otehr flaks will suppress the fighters from X race in Y time and advent will do in Y/2 consistently then their is a problem. Those where my finding at the time.

Reply #42 Top

Quoting EadTaes, reply 39
Proof???? Are you kidding me. Think I'll go bust my ass again testing for 4 hours. You can do it by your self. 10 carrier vs 20 flak and start a timer.

We are not saying your tests are wrong, we are saying your conclusion is wrong. We could remove the mesh and particle effects from the game and the defense vessel would still do the same damage. If the Advent flak is better than the rest it is because of something else, not the gun ports.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 37
Perhaps you can share some actual evidence of your testing, because as far as I can tell, magic doesn't exist in the real world.

 

because lum bugged damage couldnt exist?

Reply #44 Top

I might run some tests, but here are some basic observations about these units.

DPS comparison per bank

TECH: 3.8333 (17.25/4.5)
PSI: 4.5 (22.5/5)
VAS: 4.08333 (24.5/6)

Another interesting bit is the time to apply damage is all backloaded across each race. This means the TECH and PSI will apply their damage quicker while the slower phase missile has to catch up to it's target to apply the damage AFAIK.

travel speed

TEC: 6000
PSI: 6000
VAS: 1600

 

Reply #45 Top

Quoting Pbhead, reply 25
There are not nearly enough numbers here. 

Seriously.  More numbers....

And i really should have done this stuff in excell or something... but unless someone has some imput... i think i am done for a bit.

Have you tried my excel sheet? It has a cool little sandbox page where you put in 2 ship types and races, how many of it, and any % increases to dps or shield or hull. it tells you which one should win and how long each ship lasts for.

There might have been an issue with strikecraft before, but I have it fixed now and I'll upload the new one tonight. I also plan to get the macro working again that pulls new information from the converted files.

Reply #46 Top

1. Non-carrier caps need one extra strikecraft squad on board.

2. All caps should gete better angular speed (even 100% better), this change will buff all of them, but battleships will benefit it at most

3. All caps should get ~20% DPS and 20% HP/SH increase. Again, it will buff them all, but battleships the most (because their initial damage output and HP/SH are already the best)

^ Carriers vs other caps fixed

 

 

 

4 Anti-medium weapons (LRFs) damage vs caps should be decreased to 25% (from 75%)

5 Caps anti-light damage should be increased to 100% (from 75%)

^ Caps vs LRFs fixed

 

6. Flaks damage vs fighters reduced to 100% (from 75%)

7. Flaks damage vs Bombers increased to 100% (from 75%)

^ Bombers fixed

 

/my 5 cents

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Arthanis, reply 46
1. Non-carrier caps need one extra strikecraft squad on board.

2. All caps should gete better angular speed (even 100% better), this change will buff all of them, but battleships will benefit it at most

3. All caps should get ~20% DPS and 20% HP/SH increase. Again, it will buff them all, but battleships the most (because their initial damage output and HP/SH are already the best)

^ Carriers vs other caps fixed

 

 

 

4 Anti-medium weapons (LRFs) damage vs caps should be decreased to 25% (from 75%)

5 Caps anti-light damage should be increased to 100% (from 75%)

^ Caps vs LRFs fixed

 

6. Flaks damage vs fighters reduced to 100% (from 75%)

7. Flaks damage vs Bombers increased to 100% (from 75%)

^ Bombers fixed

 

/my 5 cents

 

Troll

 

Reply #49 Top

@Derek06 - More like Necroer

Reply #50 Top

Sorry, I didn't notice how old this thread is. My bad, sorry.