Do the fans ask for too much?

Yes, the fans ask for too much.   But, carry on.

I want a friggin pony loaded up with a barrel of Bugmens XXX Dwarven Brew damit, oh and a +1 beer mug.

You kidding me?  I've been asking Brad for a pony for like 4 months.  Hell yes we ask for too much, but hey, it doesn't hurt to ask.

Would it hurt to ask for a 6-digit job at Stardock?

All I care about is that I have a forum to:

1. Voice my concern or idea
2. Know it is read and considered

Whether it is implemented into the game or even responded to in the forums is entirely their call and I fully respect that. Any effective plan (EWoM) requires a solid strategy, execution, controls, and a feedback loop to gauge whether the plan was effective to meet the goals and objectives. As a customer, SD allows us a voice in the feedback loop and I think that's just plain awesome.

The best plan in the world means jack shit if there's no execution, a crappy strategy, controls, or a way to measure success (feedback loop). Alternatively, you can have great execution but a shitty plan or great communication (feedback loop) yet crappy execution. All cylinders need to be firing to meet the goals and objectives.

Brad already knows what went wrong with the first plan that culminated with the Aug '10 release. Execution failed due to trying to build a big game with an ineffective strategy (huge game with a hobby model). That has been corrected this time around. I have nothing but respect for SD after reading these forums the past 5 months. I find it really cool that the devs and Brad open some windows into their home now and then with the dev journals and forum dialogue.

I'll shut up now. I need to stop typing and start playing!

The fans ask for a lot. But the cool thing about Stardock is, they'll give it to the fans. If it's a little thing, it'll be in a patch. If it's a bigger thing, it will be in an expansion. And then the fans buy the expansion and get what they want, and Stardock gets money (which is ultimately what a business wants) and everyone is happy.

Edit: also, what AlLanMandragoran said.

Not to mention the inevitable conflicting opinions of fans. If you try to please everyone somebodies not gonna like it.. ROFLMAO

 Christ... I'd proly pay them to beta test professionaly... maybe... If they gave me all my games for free^^

Sure the forums ask for too much, i.e. more than can be realistically added to the game, but this is better than asking for too little. Don't interpret requests on the forums as demands, they're more like suggestions. We're just throwing out ideas that may or may not make it into Elemental sooner or later; Stardock has given every indication that they listen to and appreciate these ideas, and some actually make into the game (in some form).. but it's clear that they feel no obligation to implement every idea, they can pick and choose at will, so the more possible sources of inspiration they have to pick from the better.

^ This.  Haven't felt as sure lately that #2 above has been occurring as often.

Some very valid suggestions made by our most talented modders (to incorporate much-needed flexibility) don't seem like they've been getting the attention they deserve lately.  Just like to know when we're being heard.

But as you said above, most of these requests are things that we wanted fixed in Beta. SD promised a lot to us, including listing in to us and making changes, and as part of the 1.00 problems, have said they want to keep hearing, and want to keep changing the game. 

I think its a good thing for all of use that we keep posting these requests, SD wants it, the fans want to do it. do we have have more power then we think? the answer is of course sometimes. 1.20 and the expansions will show how much power we have had after 1.00

Some people should eat more humble pie.

As a collective group we ask far too much, it's if nothing else a good yard stick for stardock to see how the community is takeing to changes though.

Also anybody (who isn't completely insane) realises that stardock wont implement everything we ask for. but in asking we're atleast giving them ideas and aiding the creative process like a good community should.

Warning: this is a long post, potentially off-topic, but from my perspective. 

Part of the problem with Elemental was that Stardock promised more then what they were capable of delivering, which is why the game came out in the state it did.  Stardock was overambitious, which can result in bad design even with the best intentions.  It was unreasonable to expect a small studio to produce a game as good as MoM, while doing it on an all new graphical engine, while producing Stardock-level AI to boot.  Even Blizzard or Valve would have problems doing that with a much larger budget.  Brad overestimated Stardock's capabilities, which was a bad decision.  This isn't a slam on the employees at Stardock, who are good at what they do, but the problem was they were asked to do way too much, as seen by the crunch time, which SD didn't have as much of in GC2 I believe (correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do remember Brad a few years ago claiming that his employees rarely did crunch and usually worked 40 hr weeks, which I think is a GOOD thing- as rested coders do better work.)

Brad has done a really good job though of getting Stardock into a shape where they able to realize the ambition Elemental has.  It might even put Stardock's gaming side in better shape then what would have happened if Brad made a better decision originally- which will likely make Stardock more money in the long-term.   I like how the private companies like SD and Valve are able to think in the long-term, which is something companies like EA/Ubi/Take 2 often fail to do, due to having to satisfy shareholders.  This is why Brad's able to risk taking a short-term loss on Elemental and supporting it fully- it's not just because Brad's a nice guy who wants to give everyone a pony.  It's because, in the long term, customer satisfaction= more likely to pre-order/ speak positively about game = more sales at higher prices= more profits.

Really, the fans do ask for plenty- but there's nothing wrong with that.  Fans should be demanding of the people they give their money to, and Stardock does a better job then most of trying to meet that demand.  I often say I am a very demanding customer, and I am.  There aren't many companies that come close to meeting my demands.  This is one of those that do.

Brad often talks about how he is uncomfortable with customers being loyal to companies.  This is another area where I disagree.  SD has earned loyalty with their past practices- and this is why I (and many other longtime fans) were able to stay patient with SD through the Elemental debacle, and why our reaction were different then many mainstream gamers, who just saw the bad and not the good.  You can see this in the reaction to Elemental and its launch in various gaming forums, and the vastly different responses from Stardock fans and other gamers.   It makes good business sense to keep your customers satisfied, for that gives you more leeway when things do go wrong.  This is why Brad is one of the better CEO's in gaming to me at least.

One thing I can say: the efforts of Stardock to fix Elemental have not gone unnoticed in the general gaming world.  You've done a lot to re-earn the reputation as a studio that tries to do the right thing.  Now, all that's left is to execute and make Elemental good.

Fans can never ask for too much.  Developers, on the other hand, can definitely promise too much.

I don't think the true fans ask for too much but I do think the forum TROLLS do. I figure most of them are from Paradox forums anyway.

That's not always the developers' fault.  It can be hard to be honest with your boss sometimes.  It's like the manager comes to you and says, "I want this change that I don't realize will touch every single file in your build, by tomorrow".  Sure, no problem!

Sure, some fans will always ask for too much.

Let's say you're making a game.

developers:

|-------X----| This is how good we want to make the game
|----X-------| This is where we ended up. Sorry! We will ... and so on

fans comments on the result

|-------X----| This was be awesome!
|----X-------| WTF this isn't nearly what you promised
|-X----------| This doesn't nearly remind me of this quote I have that you said would be included in the game three years ago
|---------X--| This is so much better than everything else that exists. I'd give it max but GOD TOLD ME NOT TO
|------Z-----| Well, it wasn't what I expected but still good
|---Y---X----| This is a five-dimensional scale. If you don't get it, I suggest you read Schkrodokliplsi.
|X-------------------------------------------| REFUND NOW KTHXBAI (doesn't explain at all)
|         X    | Worst game ever. Would buy again.
|--X---------| I worked on the game. Everything was horrible.
|---------P  | Pizza. Fuck yeah.
|----X------| The game was solid, but it lacked feature Y that I was the only one to request.
|=====D--| Dick in your comments! LOL

In summary,
1) People are idiots
2) Everyone's pulling in different directions
3) Everyone had grossly varied expectations

heavenfall, that's pretty hilarious.  the summary is a good one for life in general...

It's been my experience (10+ years as a software project manager) that clients usually blue-sky a myriad of features into their projects.  It is the PMs and DLs responsibility to find the middle ground between what is achievable/affordable and this blue-sky.  I had my best results in loading as much of the process variables into table driven systems that could be substantially updated through table changes only.  The company that I worked for bought out a similar company and when we compared processes we were amazed that a change in the bought company took 9 months compared to a 3 day process in ours. LOL

Sorry for the digression but I would be remiss if I didn't bring up these experiences,  Carry on.

It's not that the fans ask for too much but that everybody with a suggestion seems to assume that he's smarter than Stardock's team of seasoned game developers (and it's not just here; every official game forum seems to suffer from this).  The two responses you see most often from the Stardock crew are "Here's why that idea won't work" and "We're already in the process of implementing that or a similar idea."  I have never seen a developer respond with "What a great idea.  Why didn't we think of that?"

I had a developer take my suggestion once and it worked wonderfully.  It was a role playing game, and I suggested that he implement a drunken sword.  It's a magical sword whose bonuses get better and better as you get more drunk.  So basically you're supposed to chug down lots of beer and then go kill monsters.  The developer was like, "Hey!  That's a good idea!" and he did it.  It worked out great.

They have jobs that only require 6 fingers?

Meant to quote the post above asking about a 6-digit job with Stardock...  I suck at posting.

I just want to be able to play as an actual pure mage as a viable option in "War of Magic." The magic system is not there yet. I haven't been around making negative comments. I've just been patiently waiting since they say there are still plans to improve magic. When they make those changes I'll start playing the game again.

I disagree.  Largely because two of those things already existed, and it was not necessary to reinvent the wheel (so to speak).

Clearly the vision was and is for Elemental to be much more than Mom was, however, if they had simply decided to make a MoM clone, keeping the same game play elements and really only building it into a new engine, the release would likely have been lauded as the greatest thing since orgasms.

Now I think that Elemental will eventually be far superior to MoM (it may already be for some, but I can't comment on that), however, I do wish that the initial design decision had been 'Clone of MoM to get the kinks in the engine worked out', and then Elemental2 being the entirely evolved game Brad really envisioned some years later.

My reality is that whatever Elemental becomes, I will still want an updated MoM clone.  Someone will tell me they can mod it into Elemental, great, I'll want that mod when it's done.