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Do the fans ask for too much?

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Do the fans ask for too much?

from Elemental Forums

When Elemental was first released everyone was pissed and Stardock apologized and vowed to make the game better. Even proactively giving away expansions. The company has worked with the community in those times taking suggestions and criticisms and creating a much better game. But now that we're so far in to Elemental's life as a game I feel like the dynamic between the developers and the forum-goers have changed.

I keep reading, every other week I check this place, a "please put this into the game" thread. Issues that have already been discussed to gret detail weeks and months previous. With twenty or more replies boiling down to "This.". And then, now, people see mto be getting anxious. The first line or so of these threads always begin with something like "We wanted this six months ago- we asked for it and we're at a loss for wards as to why is does not exist."

Elemental was in a sorry state a while ago but now the game is 'okay'. And  i was angry at Stardock but now I just feel bad for them. It seems like the community is breathing down their backs for things that might not even be possible to implement within the framework of the game.

I used to post ideas and comments and all but I'm not active like I used to be. Not that anyone would really remember me, I guess. So, I ask those of you these questions: Do you think the community thinks it has more power than it really does?  Are these ideas and suggestions to grandiose?

elemental
48,621 views 54 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

I want Stardock to make me a Venti Frappuccino, Raspberry Mocha, no decaf, with whipped cream.

Is that too much to ask?  It is Stardock, isn't it?

Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally, I'd have liked to have had a Stardock employee personally hand deliver my copy of the game to my house.

 

 

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Awhile ago Derek told Toby to fix my gas problem. I'm still uncomfortably waiting.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting gyrate, reply 27
This game should come with coupons for free pizza.
BBQ...:drool:

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting gyrate, reply 27
This game should come with coupons for free pizza.

 

What's funny is a couple of fighting games I've played have come with coupons for free fried chicken.  Soul Calibur IV did.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Alstein, reply 14
Warning: this is a long post, potentially off-topic, but from my perspective. 

 

Part of the problem with Elemental was that Stardock promised more then what they were capable of delivering, which is why the game came out in the state it did.  Stardock was overambitious, which can result in bad design even with the best intentions.  It was unreasonable to expect a small studio to produce a game as good as MoM, while doing it on an all new graphical engine, while producing Stardock-level AI to boot.  Even Blizzard or Valve would have problems doing that with a much larger budget.  Brad overestimated Stardock's capabilities, which was a bad decision. 

Sorry, no. I think you are over victimizing Stardock here. The game was bad for one reason IMO: they assumed that the game would be enjoyable automatically so long as certain features were present. Playability of such features was not considered, and, as such, we have a game that is still completely unplayable from a gameplay perspective half a year after release.

The only time we ask for too much is when we request the addition of features which exacerbate the existing issues before said isseus are fixed.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh and another thing if the game requires you to register then it should ship with a router bundled in.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

It should be released perfect, without need for patches to fix any kind of bug or to improve the game.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

I should be able to ask it out and date it, without anybody in the restaurant looking at me funny.

And the AI should be able to pass my Chemistry exams for me.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tetleytea, reply 35
I should be able to ask it out and date it, without anybody in the restaurant looking at me funny.

And the AI should be able to pass my Chemistry exams for me.

It should be able to pass the Chemistry exams, I mean fuck, it IS Elemental after all.

Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top

Any game made in Michigan should come with free Red Wings ticket, jumper cables and a teenager to shovel my driveway. At a bare minimum. But hold the Lions tickets - don't want them.

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sythion, reply 32


Sorry, no. I think you are over victimizing Stardock here. The game was bad for one reason IMO: they assumed that the game would be enjoyable automatically so long as certain features were present. Playability of such features was not considered, and, as such, we have a game that is still completely unplayable from a gameplay perspective half a year after release.

The only time we ask for too much is when we request the addition of features which exacerbate the existing issues before said isseus are fixed.

 

It was released in what, August? Well, end of August. So it's been almost five months. We're about ten days shy (August 24, 2010 was the release date) of five. And they've already made major strides in the game in both terms of stability and playability. A lot of people are finding the game playable at this point. Maybe a bit bland, maybe needing mods to spice things up, but from a gameplay perspective the game is functioning at least on a basic level. Some people are still having crashes - I was still having crashes even into the last few betas for 1.1, but now I only have one crash every few sessions, which is a lot better than every few turns.

I've played good games that crashed more often, and they were considered playable from a gameplay perspective.

 

Stardock has promised to make things right and part of that is listening to the players to change and implement new things, and part of that is fixing what they already have. Some people here do ask too much. Demanding a refund after six months is unreasonable from a retail standpoint. Demanding that the game be a 10 by AAA standards when it launched as a 2-6 on most reviews, only five months after release, is also unreasonable. Most people on this forum are reasonable and understanding, which is why they are here. They understand it will take time to get the game to the status of games like GalCiv2.

 

Brad has already stated that by the third expansion the game will have lost the company money, but healing their wounded fanbase is more important to him and the rest of the company.

 

Lastly, playability was considered - The problem was that the beta phase was not long enough or in depth enough. If the beta testers, many of whom are still on this forum, saw that things weren't playable or weren't good in their current state, then how can Stardock? They've already said they will revamp their approach to beta testing.

 

Not sure what else to say, but there's my two cents.

Reply #39 from Elemental Forums Top

It's getting late over here and I am still waiting on brad to come and tuck me in. lazy devs.... #Yawn#

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

my 2 cents on the matter is that yes the fans demand alot.

BUT put in perspective that everyone wants alot of depth, fun and well nothing short of epic fantasy 4x experience for Elemental and its expansions.

so in accuality its not that we are demanding alot is that we want to have this game benothing short of a classic.

the best part of it all is...  one of the BIGGEST fans of this game is brad who happens to be also the CEO.

hes been hiring alot of talent and really is showing alot of love and commitment to the game.

the BEST thing we can do is what WE are currently doing now... bombard the forums with ideas... that way we can collectively affect the direction this game is going into and elevate it and make it a true classic. imho

 

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting noobshot, reply 40
so in accuality its not that we are demanding alot is that we want to have this game benothing short of a classic.
 

Although it's true that the first to want it to be a classic were Frogboy and company, players asking for that is too much. No one can design a classic game on purpose (or at least lets say that it's not an easy task that just anyone can do or that will always end successfully). Players (not just the ones visting the forum during development) make them classic. That requires many players agreeing.

Anway,brainstorming and constructive criticism are the best ways to help improving the game. Classic or not. :)

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 34
It should be released perfect, without need for patches to fix any kind of bug or to improve the game.

 

No but over-dependency on patches is a bad thing. I know games are more complex than they used to be but seriously, "post-release beta testing" is almost becoming the norm these days.

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

Sometimes maybe, but I just want the game to be fun. I don't think that's asking too much.

Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top

Oh come on now, everyone knows if you don't call shit rainbows and hand over as much as a company asks for on day 1 without question, then you're not a fan anyway, you're a troll.

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

i agree 100% that it needs more fun injection. and dont get me wrong the player based mods are adding flavor but id like more fun right from the core game.

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tetleytea, reply 22
I had a developer take my suggestion once and it worked wonderfully.  It was a role playing game, and I suggested that he implement a drunken sword.  It's a magical sword whose bonuses get better and better as you get more drunk.  So basically you're supposed to chug down lots of beer and then go kill monsters.  The developer was like, "Hey!  That's a good idea!" and he did it.  It worked out great.

I was talking more about fundamental game design ideas.  I've never seen a fan suggest something that a development team hadn't already thought of.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sythion, reply 32
...we have a game that is still completely unplayable from a gameplay perspective half a year after release.

Completely unplayable?  Seriously?

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tydorius, reply 38
... The problem was that the beta phase was not long enough or in depth enough. ... They've already said they will revamp their approach to beta testing. ...

Can you point me to the thread or give some distinct strings so I can search for it? I try to keep up with Dev Journals, but I missed any discussion of doing future betas differently. I definitely felt that there was a major missing final phase that focused on the 'content' (or lack thereof).

Do you have the impression that future betas will give us volunteers more time to muck with a semi-complete game and have effective feedback loops about things like champions feeling too generic and diplomacy being barely there?

Reply #49 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtn_Man, reply 47
... Completely unplayable?  Seriously?

A couple of post-release builds refused to run on my rig, although the latest version at least starts a game without crashing for me.

The 'unplayable' thing is, crashes aside, definitely an eye of the beholder situation. I've barely been playing since September because I'm one of those folks who developed serious attitude problems about a few things, magic in particular and atmosphere in general. Just seeing a spell book named "Terraforming" makes me want to shut the game down.

Still clinging to hope for the Enchantress title, though. Not encouraged to see possible bias towards Fallen factions, but not too surprised either, since any serious score-monger in GalCiv II takes the path of evil.

Reply #50 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Mtn_Man, reply 47



Quoting Sythion,
reply 32
...we have a game that is still completely unplayable from a gameplay perspective half a year after release.


Completely unplayable?  Seriously?

From a gameplay perspective, yes. Every aspect of the game is pretty much an exploit that guarantees a win, so there's no actual gameplay. Hence, it is unplayable from a gameplay perspective.

Even if I were to purposefully nerf myself by not using any armor, I could just arrow/blink to instant wins, or I could rush to groups with high attack to instant kill tactical AI opponents, or I could just build basic troops that are actually very crappy so that my score stays high and no one ever attacks me until I autoturn to a magic victory, or I could just rush to magic victory with a large number of arcane labs, or I could get some armor on my champion and rush master quest, or I could get high level spells and just cast them to destroy opponents sovereigns with no effort from strategic view.

There is no gameplay as long as the core mechanics are so easily exploited.

And to clarify a previous post. I was not implying that I'm not satisfied with SD's work so far. Actually, the game has come a lot further than I initially expected in this time frame. All I wanted to point out is that the original problem with Elemental is not that they tried too hard, it's that they added features without making them make sense or work (again from a gameplay perspective).