Wouldn't we then have the same issue we have before with mines individually checking to see if something is in range?

This would only be in the short "arming" period immediately after deployment, hence a one-time cost rather than perpetual overhead.

Vas: Deployment as a periodic ability spawning one at a time for a while?

Lots of good replies about building less but more powerfull mines.  But I don't see any mention of just having the AI build less mines, or almost none at all.  Somehow adjust the priority to build mines.  If you have to, place them higher in the the tech tree (tier 2 is just too low).  They currently build way too many - and they really aren't effective, so why build them at all.

That's mainly an issue with Fortifier AI, who along with Aggressive AI (maxes fleet supply, screwing itself with upkeep) my friends and I avoid ever using.  Improving those two AIs so they are less retarded would help the game a lot.  Also, please prevent Advent AI from using mines entirely.  They simply don't understand when it's appropriate to have homing mine squads on their carriers, leading to disastrous attacks where they get crushed because their 2000+ credit carriers are not armed with any combat drones.

Ibgsloan has a very valid point. Priority on Vasari Carriers on what to build as well as fixing the Aggressive AI's tendency to completely ruin it's economy as well as the Fortifier over using mines should be looked at.

Agreed; the way the AI fights, mines are a waste of resources and it really shouldn't be using them at all.  Minefields only work if you're hiding units in the thicket they create, something the AI just doesn't do.

I'm aware this is a pipe dream, but it is simply too juicy an opportunity for me to pass up.

-How to make mines more fun?

Blatantly rip-off some mechanics (which I happen to love from an aesthetic standpoint) from Banner of the Stars.

1) Mines can be deployed via phase space (stick to the near edge I guess)

2) Mines can be used to destroy mines

3) All ships get some mine detection, scouts just have better range

Would this be a huge balance problem with the Vasari's patented We-Phase-Anywhere technology?  Yes, of course.  Does that mean I'd never want to see inter-planetary mine-warfare?  Oh heck no.  Not going to happen, ever, but hey, you asked!

-How to reduce overhead?

Diametrically opposed to my last answer: Mine deployment is now an environmental effect (that applies Damage over Time) like magnetic clouds, asteroid fields, etc.  Dishing out damage would drain the cloud, scouts could drain it/negate damage for friendlies.  Mine deployment would just change the strength of the field, and mine objects would be purely cosmetic.

This would totally remove any strategic planning to mine placement (within wells), and pretty much destroy the racial flavor of Advent mines, at least as they are now.  But it would run damn fast.

Advent homing mines are absolutely worthless because they overkill their target.

You can sacrifice one scout to clear a huge amount of homing mines that all detonate on a single ship even if only one would be enough to destroy it.

The whole point of mines should be that they are hidden. In Sins they are always visible so of course you need a billion of them to make sure the enemy can't simply go around them, hence lag. Or rather not using them at all.

I would start by creating a mechanic where the mines can actually be invisible. Ship pathfinding ignoring minefields and driving straight into them doesn't help either.

I would also look at the possibility of creating asteroid fields or such with narrow paths that you could booby trap. Strategic locations to mine instead of spamming them everywhere. And did I mention they need to be invisible? There could be a decoys you could fire to detonate a minefield or an explosive to clear a path. But clearing mines should cost resources.

In short:

Less mines that are invisible that can only be cleared by detonating them.

Oh and I hate the mechanic of laying 1000 mines at the end of phase lanes. Surely the fleet could choose to come out of phase space a little earlier instead of appearing right on top of the minefield you know is there.

I guess if there were less mines overall that were also invisible, it would be abstract enough to make sense. If you could mine about 30% of the possible entry sector of a phase lane you could cover the most likely spot they come from. But the enemy could also be clever and take time to jump in from a more unlikely spot.

Features I'd like to see:

• Mines take ship logistics slots so mines have to be considered as a real strategy and not as a tack on.
• Have 5 types of mines starting with weak scout killers at the low end and up to capital ship cripplers at the top end.
• A single mine unit would have an area coverage as opposed to laying "a field" and have abilities as weapons do.
• Each Faction have a dedicated mine layer.
• All mines to be able to toggle on or off and be autocast or manually detonated at will.
• Mine research to fully use mine capabilities.

Possibly a way to make specific mines select scouts would be to create a passive ability-buff on scouts that multiplies mine damage/range versus them.  This would keep scouts from automatically clearing all mines--there could always be a scout killer in amongst them.

The "Top Tier" Mines I'd like:

 [Phase] "Collapsar mine", generates a strong attraction field that can pull ships, fighters, frigates and civilian vessels towards it for a set period and then detonates for area damage.  Would affect friend and foe. 

[Tech] "Cluster mine", spawn a burst of multiple mines that target and hit multiple enemy ships and generate splash and explosive damage.

[Psi] "Domination mine", an area effect that would capture by domination ability  multiple frigates within range and with a second ability that at very close range could also capture a capital ship.

Supporting Mines I'd like:

For all factions, I'd have persistent Spy mines that simply allow the owner to view the system they are planted in and a cheap, large area effect Anti-Scout mine that could be planted to protect the more important mines near it.

[Phase]

Nanite mines, doing area nanite damage to enemy,

Gravity mines, as exist already.

Anti-Shield mines, that cripple shield damage mitigation levels of enemy ships.

[Tech]

Projectile mines, that function as directed charges and hit a single frigate at range with explosive and splash damage.

Anti-strike mines, that hit  all enemy strike craft within a radius.

Blockade mines, persistent mines that "freeze" trade and refinery ships that pass within their range.

[Psi]

Anima Projector mines, with additional research levels that spawn frigates, strike craft or cruisers (depending on level and ability selected) when enemy ships pass by.

Animosity-Vengeance mines, heavy armored mines that force enemy units to attack it and re-deals damage as per animosity and vengeance abilities.

Detonate Antimatter mines, mines that deplete antimatter of enemy ships within range.

These sorts of strategically tiered effect mines would make mine scouting and clearance a priority and also make it a risky venture.  Mines could cripple fleets, strangle trade and provide spy reports--they would have to be dealt with, not just "flown past".  The logistics requirements would make spamming them less attractive and they could still be limited to a total number within a single grave well.  In fact, adding mine research could determine how many mines per grav well was allowed as well as be required to open up the more powerful mines. This makes seriously using mines an actual strategic commitment and decision.

In real life mines are used for perimeter defense, logistics  and tactical movement interdiction, as a area denial weapons and as a nuisance/morale threat.

Also, any chance you guys could throw a better description our  way of how to mod mines in the meanwhile?

I hope this entire discussion thread isn't lost in "developer's deadline shuffle" for Rebellion.  We would love to see some mine options in game--not to mention cpu reduction costs for their use. Here's some summary of points made:

• One thing I noted in reading through these is the general view that a mine having an "area effect" seems pretty acceptable to all (as opposed to having a slew of individual mines in place).

That should certainly help.

• Specialized mines are also something everyone had an interest in and many good ideas were presented.

A common caution and concern is that mines would be deployed offensively while in in combat to the point where they would take away from ship and weapon balances long in the game.

• A fair counter to this is to make specilaized mine-laying vessels (such as the Ruiner) a standard for all sides and make laying mines deplete all antimatter reserves and immobilize the ship in place for a considerable time.

My biggest request is to SHARE MORE MODDING INFO so that we can mod mines ourselves! (this applies to Strike Craft and the rest of the game as well)

• Strike Craft and Mines need more modding information made available to players.

If I remember correctly, this was for v1.2 or v1.3 of diplomacy.  I don't think they intended for any of these ideas to be missed in diplomacy but be in rebellion.

That's my point--for Rebellion.

This post has sat a bit and I just didn't want it to be overlooked as time has gone by.  Would hate for Rebellion to get released and find they had forgotten mines.

I'm going to assume this thread is still about ideas (I havent read any of it). I realize that this is a significant departure from the current mine system. I'm okay with that.

Well, here's my idea (please read through everything and let me know if something wasn't clear):

• I decide to create a minefield at my planet, and it creates a giant sphere of mines around the planet.
• The giant sphere with mines floating about is purely visual, no real collision detection should be needed for the individual mines.
• The idea is that when enemy ships are inside the planet's grav well, but out side the 'deployment ring' (not really sure how else to describe that 1 inch outer ring), ships will take periodic damage due to striking mines (the exact rate, strength, and such would be based on each faction's 'flavor' of mine)

Benefits: Mine fields are always properly deployed, no matter if AI laid the mines or a human. Should reduce the CPU resources as it only has to calculate things when ships are in the zone and on a per ship basis, not on a per mine per ship basis. Less time needed to properly set up a mine field. This also plays better with the ships odd fleet movement so you dont have as many ships lost due to bad AI movement.

Problems: How do you disarm this minefield and what good are scouts? The few times that minefields were setup correctly, you could blaze a tunnel for your ships and you had to be very careful until you had taken the time to clear the field altogether; In this setup, you can't have the same experience. no 'i got behind enemy lines and so i didnt have to deal with the fences' moments (some could see this as a benefit).

Variations on this basic idea:

• can have different 'levels' of mine fields. more mines = higher frequency of collision. Vasari might be different types as well/instead.
• could potentially not cover the whole well. maybe a quarter or an eighth of the well per investment, and then limit the maximum investments so that you have to be strategic in the layout
• could have scouts produce an area affect the reduce the number of mine attacks on your ships within the area.
• Maybe if you capture the planet, the minefield is destroyed?

Maybe you could have one or a few small structures ("Cloak Generator" or something?) inside of each mine area which uses the mine cloaking mechanism which has to be destroyed in order for the minefield to then dissipate after 60 seconds or something?

Potential gameplay-feel problems: it might only require one scout to uncloak them all in order to get rid of that whole minefield area. Could possibly be fixed if a new armor type was created for the cloak generator which could only be damaged by a new weapon type wielded by only the Scout. Then again the devs probably have serious reservations about creating new weapon and armor types.

Then again I'd prefer that (along with more reliable / damaging mines) to the current system.

I think mine experience is too negligible to worry about, although you could of course give the Cloak Generator a hefty amount of XP to compensate.

EDIT: Just had another idea to fix the scout-number problem. If the cloak generator reactivated its cloak after like 5 seconds and the cooldown of the scout's anti-cloak ability was 30 seconds or something, it would require a good number of scouts to keep the generator's cloak down for enough time to attack it with your normal fleet.

One thing I can say for sure is that CPU resources for mines is going to be quite reduced.

Awesome.

Do you have a present for us?  I bet we'll like these.

He's working late...230am!  Wait...I'm working late.

Man Sinperium ! What were are you thinking!

I've got a present for youuuu...

(and no sleep)

... ?

Have you ever used the Vasari minelayer Boshimi?

Keep in mind they are on PST. So it was only midnight for those British Colombians.

Very seldom actually ...

Me confused Mr. Goa--I thought they were EST.  So I work later than them...hmmm.  FYI, I named a planet on the big map I am making for you--it's Goa Way.

Listen to the sound files for it Boshmi--then all will be revealed (which is another sound file, by-the-way).  I gave you a planet too--Boshmi's Bane.