TheProgress TheProgress

There is something ... odd about this well [huge feedback on game]

There is something ... odd about this well [huge feedback on game]

Disclaimer: I'm writing this post as neutral as I know how. It's not a disrespect of the developers - merely a list of issues (both large and small) based on my short time with the game so far. I have ONLY played through a portion of the campaign so far - haven't even looked at the "actual" game. These are legitimate concerns / issues with the game (from my POV) - I'm not sitting up at 3:00am for the fun of it. If you don't agree with something I've said: that is your prerogative; don't start attacking me because Stardock is your bestest of buddies.

How about we start at campaign?

 

CAMPAIGN MAP PRESENTATION:

The campaign was designed to get players into the game and familiar with the core mechanics and basic gameplay. So far it has failed in both respects. The opening cutscene was fine, not amazing or anything but it did its job well enough. The problems arise as soon as the player is given control over his character:

  • The game does not explain in anyway movement points, how to move characters on the map or anything at all really about what the player first sees.
  • The game does not explain how turns function. It doesn't even point out where the "end turn" button is.
  • The campaign makes uses of the harmafaf-thingy (encyclopedia): Fantastic! Too bad it doesn't tell the player how to actually find it, or that it even exists.
  • Unless the player has found the encyclopedia, he will have no idea how to create a city - or that he's even supposed to!
  • The player has managed to found a city: amazing. Too bad he's not told how cities work, what their stats mean or how they are improved. Food isn't explained. Houses, populations, recruitment isn't explained. Nothing is explained! The player is not told how to construct buildings even!
  • Great the players finally managed to found his city and build up a population. Too bad an entire selling point of the game isn't explained: No where, not even once is the player told how to design units - He / shes not even told that it is possible. Nothing is explained yet again.
  • Resources and how they are acquired, used, etc are not explained what so ever.
  • This practice of not explaining shit continues: I could be here until next week talking about stuff that isn't explained.

 

TACTICAL MAP PRESENTATION:

The tactical maps, and how to even GET to a battle on a tactical map are not explained in any way:

  • Basics of combat are not explained.
  • Tactics movement is not explained.
  • Combat attributes, weapons, armor, etc <- no explanations.
  • Targeting enemies, with magic, melee or ranged weapons = no explanation.
  • Tile bonuses = no explanation.
  • Nothing is explained.
  • Heroes (and indeed, what separates heroes from the rest of the units) = not explained.
  • Experience, leveling up heroes and the such - not explained.

 

If I was new to the TBS genre I WOULD BE COMPLETELY lost. There is a very good chance I would abandon the game out of pure frustration / confusion. Even I was lost at times - not about the game play but what the actual campaign wanted from me. A tutorial itself should never confuse the player because then they're confused on two fronts: how the game works, and how to progress the tutorial.

I think that is enough talk about the campaign presentation. Again my experience has only been with the campaign, but now I will talk strictly about the game mechanics, features, etc.

 

TACTICAL MAPS:

There are a large number of issues with the tactical maps:

  • First of all, characters should not be able to have a "destination" set that exceeds one turn of movement. It only leads to confusion (like where two units end up stacked on the same tile - which has happened to be more than once already).
  • Show us the attack ranges for magic and arrows / bolts / whatever for our currently selected unit (or enemy unit). How the hell am I supposed to know where to position my archers otherwise?
  • Tile bonuses: they're pretty straight forward EXCEPT there is no graphical indication of what tiles have bonuses. I have literally encountered a group of tiles that all look identical, BUT - two tiles had +50% defense while one tile had -25% defense. Am i supposed to drag my cursor along the entire battle field and memorize the location of every tile that has a bonus or penalty? Add graphical indications and STAY CONSISTENT.
  • Unit move points: once one of my units has been moved - have him sit down or grey him out or SOMETHING. Don't force me to memorize which of my 8 archers have been used (especially since the camera goes crazy when using them). Give me some sort of graphical indication. (There is a chance that this is being covered by the character "list" on the side of the screen - but all I saw was health).
  • Squads, companies, w/e: I don't care that their attacks are stacked - it kind of works out well. But why do the hell does the health / armor stack? I seem to remember screen shots of units flying through the air - and other dramatic visuals. When a squad is attacked, each unit should suffer damage individually. Individual units should die INDIVIDUALLY. On a side note: let us combine like units int squads.
  • Unit positions: I've started tactical maps that have placed one or two of my units right next to the enemies army.... thanks?
  • There are number of strategic spells that should be usable on the tactical map as well (just like in Master of Magic).
  • Some units are removed from the map the second their dead body hits the ground (others a bit later). Why? If the computer had the resources to load them in to begin with, there can't be a need to suddenly start freeing up resources. Keep dead bodies on the tactical map. Remove them after the battle is over - this will also allow for spells with necromancy / etc in mind to exist.
  • I know this is more of a stylistic complaint but it maddens me to no end when I have 4 archers all no more than 2 tiles away from a giant drake AND EACH ARCHER MISSES, and continues to miss round after round after round. The thing is huge and I know this is related to its defense rating but damn.
  • Why are my spells missing? More importantly, why are my spells missing when being cast on my own units, from 1 tile away, 4 times in a row. Does my spearman just really hate being healed?
  • Every single battle, the AI targets the same unit, over and over and over. They just gun for him. Boring and predictable frights.
  • PLEASE let us turn off the auto-select for tactical battles. DRIVING ME CRAZY.

 

STRATEGIC MAP:

The strategic maps are probably the most polished aspect of the entire game:

  • The purposes of tiles with bonuses / penalties on the tactical map is pretty clear: why does the strategic map have the same bonuses? How do those work. Confusing.
  • Notable locations sometimes remain - mouse hover tooltips still show up after beating the area.
  • Dead people seem to still make tooltips popup some times.

 

PRODUCTION VALUES:

I guess a large portion of the budget when into developing the platform / (pretty) textures, models and modding tools (and yes, the core tech):

  • Human unit acknowledgments: repetitive, boring, sometimes absurd.
  • Enemies all share the same death sound effects. What the hell is going on: why do I hear the same thing when I kill a wolf, a spider, a troll and a drake.
  • Archers - apparently they have figured out how to fire (invisible) arrows with out pulling the string back on their bows. And apparently their arrows glow.
  • Tons of spells are missing sound effects. Just brings down the entire feeling of the game in terms of quality.
  • The number of spells: I seem to remember a massive thread (https://forums.elementalgame.com/386025) where people spent their time and energy listing huge volumes of spells. Why are there so few spells in the game - The game is called WAR OF MAGIC. Disappointing honestly. (I'm basing the spell # off of posts I've read from other users since the game's release - if these numbers have been incorrect then I'm sorry).
  • Tons of a little things: cursors graphics not changing when they need to, icons being used to represent the wrong things (a shield icon used to represent head-based objects during sovereign creations??), the mouse in general is inaccurate and is prone to fits of shaking.
  • The game apparently makes use of the havok physics engine - if you're going to spend the money then use the damn thing. All I've yet to see anything in any of the tactical battles use the physics engine to any impressive degree. What happened to Sauron throwing groups of men through the air?
  • Visual effects on spells: again for a game about magic (magic is in the title!) why do the spells have such generic effects? Some of them look cool - others far less so.

 

PERFORMANCE & BUGS:

  • It's not a bad thing, but the game is visually simple. It is definitely no Crysis, or Farcry 2, or Mass Effect, Etc. So why then does my game's performance come crashing down (reduced to 10 - 20 fps) when something as simple as a level 2 city comes into view? Issue documented here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/391334
  • I love the thought of tactical battles. so imagine my pain when every 3rd tactical battle I get into forces me to use the task managed to force-quit the game: https://forums.elementalgame.com/391302
  • Menus and the GUI in general is rather sluggish. Menus should feel snappy when asked for, not slow.

 

EQUIPMENT BALANCE:

  • I've noticed some very odd balance issues pertaining to equipment used for trained troops. An example would be maces vs warhammers: warhammer supplies +24 to attack, while the mace supplies only +12. Yet, the warhammer actually costs 1 less metal unit than the mace - and 3 (or 4) more gold than the mace. In a game where gold quickly builds up, the extra gold of the warhammer is a non-issue.

 

MODDING:

  • I've been reading lots of threads (not just ones here) and people everywhere want a flexible modding system. It seems like something Stardock / Brad is set on which is great. Get as much of the core-game mechanics exposed via Python as possible. Allow for brand new GUI screens, total conversion, radical modifications to the AI, etc. All this and more will turn Elemental into a great game and platform.

 

Well, it's not 4:14 am. You'll notice that large aspects of the game have been left out (research, diplomacy, etc) - like I said, I've only been playing the campaign. The game has great promise and I wish it to succeed in all possible ways (obviously since I paid for it). I wish the developers the best of luck and look forward to what they come up with. Hopefully my post hasn't been too ranty of everyone's taste and will be of some help.

283,290 views 80 replies
Reply #26 Top

The game needs tutorial, (that would address more than 50% of your concerns), however they could not do tutorial, because the game design is still in flux, like building improvements by clicking resource was finalized like what? 3 weeks ago or less?

And for those who saying that "day 0 patch will fix most of it" no it will not. These are the same people who were saying "oh the game is miles ahead from beta and everything will be sorted out at release". They have NO idea how difficult to polish a game (or any program for that matter), how long and time consuming this process is.

I do believe that Stardock will fix and improve significantly in the nearest months, but we are talking about MONTHS people, not days. So we need some patience here, and feedback, honest feedback. This is crucial for them at this point. Because to catch all those little things, and balance the game is HUGE AND LENGTHY process.

So, beta testers, just treat the game as beta 6 (this is what really it is, judging by the game), roll up your sleeves and back to work. I am sure SD is not resting, so we should not slack either.

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Reply #27 Top

Quoting Myros, reply 23
Just wanted to post a thanks to the OP (and others who have posted their honest feedback and views), saved me paying for another beta game and end up waiting on patches etc Been burned to many times by paying to beta test - let the rabid fanboys do that, they seem to love it anwyay.

Will check back in a few weeks and see if anything improves.

Cheers

There's nothing wrong with this point of view ;) Some people like finding and reporting bugs and issues, others just like not worrying about it and playing the game. As you're one who wants the latter (I myself was a beta tester, so I don't particularly mind personally), I'd definitely recommend you wait for a few patches and then check it out.

Remember also that the forum isn't only filled with rabid fanboys :P There are plenty of people (myself included) that can and will give you honest responses about the state of the game if you leave a post to ask ;)

Reply #28 Top

Quoting MxM111, reply 26


I do believe that Stardock will fix and improve significantly in the nearest months, but we are talking about MONTHS people, not days. So we need some patience here, and feedback, honest feedback. This is crucial for them at this point. Because to catch all those little things, and balance the game is HUGE AND LENGTHY process.

So, beta testers, just treat the game as beta 6 (this is what really it is, judging by the game), roll up your sleeves and back to work. I am sure SD is not resting, so we should not slack either.

This.

Be constructive.

Also, I'd like to point out that many here seem to have missed the pdf manual. It doesn't explain a whole lot of things, but it does cover some basics.

Reply #29 Top

I agree with quite a few of the points you've listed here. Well, not all of them (the archers missing the dragons don't bother me if they're low-level archers with a basic training), but overall this is good and constructive (if harsh) criticism.

Reply #30 Top

I have experienced most of the issues that he original poster lists; if he wasn't a beta tester, Stardock should consider making him a tester for their next release.:)

As an owner of the GalCiv 2 series, I am confident that Stardock will continue to work hard to fix and improve the game with patches and updates well after the initial release.

That being said, I think I share what appears to be the greatest concern from the original post: too much of the process of learning the game is left to trial and error. As an experienced TBS player, the learning curve hasn't been too rough because, in a manner of speaking, I already "know what to look for". The mechanics of Elemental do not stray far from the conventions of the genre, but like any game with this level of complexity, a working knowledge of those mechanics is essential, as is having access to something that will provide detailed information regarding those mechanics.

In this respect, Elemental is lacking, so much so that I believe some people will simply give up on the game. Even without referencing the excellent knowledge-base tools of other games from other developers, Elemental's documentation pales in comparison to one of Stardock's own products, Galactic Civlizations 2.

On another note--and it really hurts me to say this--the campaign is really quite poor. I'm sure some people worked really hard on it with the hope that someone would enjoy it, but it's very linear and bland, nothing more than a string of consecutive and very simple missions leading up to a very anti-climactic battle. The campaign uses so very few of the options available in the sandbox mode that it might as well be a different game. There's no need to make any improvements to your cities, save for the purpose building units; your cities never come under attack; and you only need to maintain a single army controlled by your hero tho travel from Point A to Point B to engage in all-too-easy battles. The campaign even tries to force you to split your units into two armies for a two-pronged approach leading up to the final battle, but it's completely unnecessary, as evidenced by that fact that I did NOT do this and was still able to successfully complete the campaign.

All told, I still think Stardock has a good game on their hands, and I expect that it will continue to improve. Forget about playing the campaign; playing a few quick games against the AI so that you can figure how the game works would be a better way to spend your time.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 27
Some people like finding and reporting bugs and issues, others just like not worrying about it and playing the game.

Oh I don't like finding and reporting bugs unless it's a project I'm working on. But I figured since I've already invested into the game, the only logical thing to do is attempt to help it grow and mature.

Hopefully the devs get a chance to read my points (as well as the responses) before the thread is buried by the wave of newcomers.

Reply #32 Top

In the past Brad has addressed some of these criticisms with "the game isn't done" but I would be interested to see what he has to say now. I criticized how he also promised the game earlier than it was actually released (but no one seems to remember any of those earlier comments and I was flamed for mine) but how do we feel about his promises for a "more complete game"?

I'm not saying Elemental is a bad game or that I regret buying it! After playing Gal Civ II and seeing what an awesome game it is and how similar Elemental is with the same sort of clunky interface, I'm willing to just say "Stardock makes great games that aren't all that accessible" -- but I think we all need to remove the blinders and admit Elemental has its fair share of problems and it may NEVER be accessible.

Not unless Stardock decides to focus on the user, that is.

Reply #33 Top

I Forgot to mention this earlier: balance. Not of the units but that of the equipment. Also a comment on unit training time. Both things have been added to the OP.

Reply #34 Top

The game's not finished. It doesn't feel like it's out of beta yet.

 

Though this isn't the 0-day release.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting OnyxBMW, reply 24
I managed to get by so far in the campaign, but that just comes from prior TBS knowledge and trial and erroring the crap out of the game. I still don't know how to accomplish some basic features though, like learning new spells by a process other than random campaign contributions. Then there's marriage. A concept I know exists, but no clue how it works or how to set it up. The lack of documentation is staggering...but then I have another problem. Within the 3 or so hours I played, the game crashed as many times. Two were from unknown purposes but separate situations (One was me reloading the campaign since I messed up early on, another was from a turn ending, I guess?) Then, the third one, the coup de grace, was an out of memory error in the game. I alt tabbed to check what the memory was at, which was a scant 1.6 gigs (I have 4 gigs on my comp, 2 on my vid card, win7 64 bit with ATI) It took a while for it to hit this state, but it was certainly unexpected. Then comes the battles. Oh boy, the battles... I have found, in the campaign, absolutely no reason to want to do anything other than auto battles. I get a much better outcome, much faster. This makes no sense to me, but somehow, it works out this way in my experience. Either way, the game so far has been pretty interesting, but the campaign thus far has been far from challenging, though I've no clue how much further I have to go in it (At chapter...6?). The big complaints thus far have been the bugs, lack of documentation (Even in that encyclopedia thing, the documentation was just surprisingly not there), and clunky UI combined with random stuttering for no apparent reason, considering I slaughter the game's requirements and it runs smoothly except when zooming in/out. I'd go on, but don't want to steal the post too much from the OP. overall a decent game, but lacks a lot of polish in some highly critical areas. Knowing Stardock, this won't last however.

I'm not going to even try the campaign intill the Day 0 patch. When I get home I'm going to run a regular game to learn it (and expereance the changes from Beta 4)

Reply #36 Top

I never read manuals or use tutorials, unless absolutly necissary. That being said, a tutorial covering the basics should be pretty common place. This games controls seem pretty standard to me and I personaly wouldn't use the tutorial if it was there. I'm more concerned with the game crashing on exit, and the sluggish behavior in general. It also seems to be getting more sluggish the longer you play, memory leak?

Reply #37 Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 35

I'm not going to even try the campaign intill the Day 0 patch. When I get home I'm going to run a regular game to learn it (and expereance the changes from Beta 4)

At this point I'm probably just going to come back in a month and hope the game has been smoothed out.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Theutus, reply 36
I never read manuals or use tutorials, unless absolutly necissary. That being said, a tutorial covering the basics should be pretty common place. This games controls seem pretty standard to me and I personaly wouldn't use the tutorial if it was there.

Agreed.

What I find most beneficial are the "Things I wish I had known" threads that get started.  It's in those threads where experienced players can find out the true nuances of the game without spending the time in the tutorials or manuals that probably won't cover that information anyways.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Gravedancer, reply 38

What I find most beneficial are the "Things I wish I had known" threads that get started.  It's in those threads where experienced players can find out the true nuances of the game without spending the time in the tutorials or manuals that probably won't cover that information anyways.

Point is players who purchase the game shouldn't be forced to check the forums in order to figure out how to play the game they've just purchased.

Reply #40 Top

Remember also that the forum isn't only filled with rabid fanboys :P There are plenty of people (myself included) that can and will give you honest responses about the state of the game if you leave a post to ask ;)

 

Yeah like me. :))

Reply #41 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 39
Point is players who purchase the game shouldn't be forced to check the forums in order to figure out how to play the game they've just purchased.

There are very few games where that hasn't been applicable.

No matter how well done the tutorial or manual is, there is always going to be better information on the forums.  There's always some useful nugget of information that helps out in better understanding the game.

I'm not disagreeing with the argument that Elemental's manual or tutorial/campaign can be improved but keep in mind that many people find the information in those trivial.  At some level games share concepts, it's just finding out the differences in how those concepts are implemented and/or best applied.  Some people just need the cliff notes version.

Reply #42 Top

I'm curious if developers have had a chance to check out this thread or not - I know they're busy making preparations and all for the "official" release but I truely believe the points made here will help improve the game (and I'd like to think that I didn't stay up to 4:30am for nothing).

Reply #43 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 42
(and I'd like to think that I didn't stay up to 4:30am for nothing).

You were up to 4:30 am playing this too? |-)

Reply #44 Top

Quoting Gravedancer, reply 43

Quoting TheProgress, reply 42(and I'd like to think that I didn't stay up to 4:30am for nothing).
You were up to 4:30 am playing this too?

Well, up to ~3:15am playing the game, then debating on whether or not I should make this topic (I had to wake up at 9:00 am).

Reply #45 Top

What the OP describes has been my issue with Elemental since pre-ordering it ages ago.  I've dabbled in the beta repeatedly and lasted no more than 10 minutes each time.  Why?  Because I have no clue what to do, ever, and figuring out how to do even simple tasks that I think I should be doing is a royal pain.

I was going to write a bunch of stuff but I'll keep it short.  I'm at one with PCs and software.  I've been a programmer, general computer person, and hardcore gamer for 20+ years.  I can usually figure out anything quickly.

With Elemental, it's almost like the game and UI are intentionally designed to be as confusing and unintuitive as possible.  It's almost uncanny how nonstandard and off everything feels.

Little stuff throws me, like ESC key behavior.  Or how when you hover over something, there isn't a tooltip like there is in everything else these days, but instead summary info is displayed somewhere that you wouldn't expect if it's shown.  When most games use tooltips and your eye is expecting tooltips, other forms of status/hover text throw you off.  There's also no noticeable notification of anything happening (unit done, building complete) that I've noticed (no slick notification icons each turn like GalCiv2 has that take you right to critical events, which Civ 5 is also using, because it freaking rocks).

I don't need to be spoon fed or anything - I've figured out all kinds of screwy games over the decades.  But maybe I am spoiled by the fact that 99% of games today have slick UIs and presentation that lends itself to playing the game.  Most games these days you don't even need a manual because everything just flows so well you can hop right in OR everything you need to know is IN the game, either thru built-in docs, tooltip help, or whatever.

Reply #46 Top

That's a mini game in the game, it's trying to understand how it is working :omg: .There should be a prize for the first one to solve the mystery !

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Voqar, reply 45
What the OP describes has been my issue with Elemental since pre-ordering it ages ago.  I've dabbled in the beta repeatedly and lasted no more than 10 minutes each time.  Why?  Because I have no clue what to do, ever, and figuring out how to do even simple tasks that I think I should be doing is a royal pain.

I was going to write a bunch of stuff but I'll keep it short.  I'm at one with PCs and software.  I've been a programmer, general computer person, and hardcore gamer for 20+ years.  I can usually figure out anything quickly.

With Elemental, it's almost like the game and UI are intentionally designed to be as confusing and unintuitive as possible.  It's almost uncanny how nonstandard and off everything feels.

Little stuff throws me, like ESC key behavior.  Or how when you hover over something, there isn't a tooltip like there is in everything else these days, but instead summary info is displayed somewhere that you wouldn't expect if it's shown.  When most games use tooltips and your eye is expecting tooltips, other forms of status/hover text throw you off.  There's also no noticeable notification of anything happening (unit done, building complete) that I've noticed (no slick notification icons each turn like GalCiv2 has that take you right to critical events, which Civ 5 is also using, because it freaking rocks).

I don't need to be spoon fed or anything - I've figured out all kinds of screwy games over the decades.  But maybe I am spoiled by the fact that 99% of games today have slick UIs and presentation that lends itself to playing the game.  Most games these days you don't even need a manual because everything just flows so well you can hop right in OR everything you need to know is IN the game, either thru built-in docs, tooltip help, or whatever.

 

Very true.  Games and software generally, should have clean and easy to use UIs.  I can't imagine playing Civ4 without the BUG mod for example, because it adds so much information to the game screens.  It makes me wonder why it's not standard.  Same for various paradox titles with the alert settings and notifications and all that.

 

These types of things (especially the customizable ones!) are so freaking obvious to me, and such low hanging fruit to add in that it boggles me when new titles don't do them.  Hell there was some game I tried a while back that had ZERO hotkeys...  Are you kidding me?  The dev said 'well I don't like hot keys'.  Ehh?  And I didn't like your game because while it was a very cool concept it was a pain in the ass to play.

 

So, how much modability of the UI is there in elemental?  Because this is not an isolated complaint.

Reply #48 Top

So...I'm seeing a disturbing trend on these pages....if you tend to like the game you are labeled as a fanboy(how mature is that?)

Reply #49 Top

Quoting shadowtongue, reply 47

So, how much modability of the UI is there in elemental?  Because this is not an isolated complaint.

Apparently all that can be done at the moment is graphical changes (to existing content)... I have no idea to what extent.

Creating brand new elements are not possible atm - they probably depend upon Python support - no idea how much of the game will be moddable in the end. Hopefully everything (a dreamer's dream) :'( .

 

Quoting Rune_74, reply 48
So...I'm seeing a disturbing trend on these pages....if you tend to like the game you are labeled as a fanboy(how mature is that?)

The only people being labeled as fanboys are people who are flamming those who post constructive criticism - claiming that we shouldn't be "negative" or something.

Reply #50 Top

Quoting eobet, reply 16
I am also extremely disappointed with the interface released. It screams of low-budget, sadly. It's not up to par with Age of Wonders or Master of Magic (I'm talking about consistency and grouping here), and nowhere near modern interfaces like King's Bounty or Anno 1701. Now, defenders of Stardock will say that they indeed did not have a high budget, but that is no excuse today, imo. Information is freely available and there are a lot of indie game creators even who get interfaces consistent and correct.

I've made threads about the UI here:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/385058

and more recently here:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/391373

Agreed,  I had same issue with GalCiv 2.  Not huge problems,  just small annoyances.  Game is very enjoyable though.