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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

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Elemental: No Copy Protection, Activation, LAN and more

from JoeUser Forums

There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.

No Copy Protection

Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever.  However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates.  But then, why should this be necessary?

Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.

So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers.  We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product).  This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.

So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental.  Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).

LAN Games

There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends.  Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.

#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.

#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.

#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.

#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game).  This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players).  Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.

1,401,461 views 434 replies
Reply #226 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting killer105, reply 222



Quoting NTJedi,
reply 219



Quoting killer105,
reply 210


I guess they still think LAN = IPX.  Honestly I'd like to meet the LAN party that sets up in a cave.  The acoustics must be awesome, but I wouldn't really return to a meet location that didn't have internet. 



LAN gaming is about reducing as many problematic variables as possible to provide improved performance, stability and communication.  LAN which "requires" WAN is not LAN... any IT person not from Stardock can explain the design.  Basically if a game or ANY SOFTWARE requires the internet cloud it's WAN.   WAN gaming is more unstable and slower than the same environment with LAN gaming because of the extra variables.  Depending on where you live some ISPs are very unstable... nobody wants a LAN game to suddenly die because Stardock experienced a network hiccup or unexpectedly high volume of activity or downtime from server maintenance, etc., .



Why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again?

I merely answered your LAN comment regarding internet.   While LAN might have internet the actual game being played should have internet as optional to provide improved performance, stability and communication.

Reply #227 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow!

Ultimately it seems a couple people won't be buying or playing this game. Sucks to be them.

I will. Hell I bought 2 copies just to show my support and that I'm cool with this system. And to counter set all those people who will use negative word of mouth I'll use positive. Already started. Mind you I'm not going to start shoving it down peoples throat at work. (even though Gamestop bitches if I don't get enough pre-orders) Still if the right customer comes through the door I'm going to try to get them to pre-order it. ;D

Have fun next week. I know what I'll be playing. ;)

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #228 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting killer105, reply 221
 




Quoting Nesrie,
reply 216



Quoting killer105,
reply 213


They were pretty upfront about this being single player first.  Just look at the time multiplayer got in the beta compared to balancing single player.  It isn't that big of a stretch for that to suggest where their focus is.  Besides, if you are a mostly multiplayer game you don't really need to focus on the AI as much as have been done.  I don't know how you came to this conclusion, but it wasn't from postings by Stardock.



Did you read what I wrote at all? At no point did i say that i thought SP wasn't first.

 

aka Yes they have been upfront about being SP first. I am agreeing with what was being said which is why i said yes.



Well, let's look at what you wrote.


Yes, they have. But let's get this straight. If they intended to give a half-ass MP approach, they should have been upfront about that or left it out. And don't tell me they've been upfront about giving a stripped down, don't care approach to MP. That was never impression they gave and is certainly not what they said. I am beginning to wonder now.


If single player is first that means multiplayer is a second priority, right?  If it is second to single player that means it is going to be less fleshed out and developed.  I guess the question is, did you read what you wrote at all?

 

Half-assed and less developed are not the same thing, none of which says tell everyone you can play with 32 players, 16 in reality, advertise you're going to have custom servers, not at release, convince people that LAN has anything to do with internet, after all when someone asks you for help with their local area network, the first thing you are going to say is make sure your modem is plugged in right, and your ISP isn't down because you NEED Internet to access your LAN right?), and it certainly does not say let's not say anything about multiplayer because that's what our gamer bill of rights says we should do right, advertise both modes but only release one finished?

Reply #229 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Annatar11, reply 204
Where do people get the idea that "LAN" automatically means no internet connection? LAN only means you have a bunch of networked computers. Having an internet connection or not doesn't change anything. Playing a game with a computer on the network hosting, and playing with every computer on the network connecting to an online server are both "LAN'. It's a term independent of gaming, making this whole debate silly.

Internet self-course in networking or did you pay off your teachers? I have this nagging feeling that you are one of those people that drag the average knowledge of IT people down towards the bottom. How hard is it really to understand that when you cross a certain network size it's no longer LAN but WAN. Or is the letters that get you confused?

Shesh pisses me off

Reply #230 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 228

Half-assed and less developed are not the same thing, none of which says tell everyone you can play with 32 players, 16 in reality, advertise you're going to have custom servers, not at release, convince people that LAN has anything to do with internet, after all when someone asks you for help with their local area network, the first thing you are going to say is make sure your modem is plugged in right, and your ISP isn't down because you NEED Internet to access your LAN right?), and it certainly does not say let's not say anything about multiplayer because that's what our gamer bill of rights says we should do right, advertise both modes but only release one finished?


You forgot the first question, "is the power on?".

Oh I just had to after reading all these LAN = WAN posts to get my humor up again.

Reply #231 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 128



Quoting psychoravin,
reply 127
Sorry pal but even Polls can be skewed. People can make 100's of online persona and skew any poll that doesn't allow just one vote per IP address and even a good hacker can get through those. Common knowledge is about 2% of consumers of primary single player games will in fact partake of multiplayer and of that 2% only a handful will play it beyond the first month. Multiplayer is for dweebs anyway just trying to show off their Epeens.


And yet you get quotes like this:

"Trine probably could have doubled its sales and success had online co-op been included."

That's a quote from Joel Kinnunen, associate producer on Trine and Lauri Hyvärinen, CEO of Frozenbyte in a post mortem write-up on the game over at Gamasutra. 

There is a demand for online gaming, very strong demand. I don't think it's a surprise that some of the biggest games, in terms of sales and units sold, have very strong multiplayer components.

Kiddie platformers always have a strong babyplay following there's no strategy to them. Just click n go and giggles. I could care less about Trine or any other kiddy platform game.

Elemental is a real strategists game and doesn't need any multiplayer elements to make it strong. It will sell high on its single player experience alone just like Galactic Civilization 2 did.

Really wished Brad hadn't included any MP features at all because it always brings the riff raff players like you around.

Reply #232 from Elemental Forums Top

Elemental is a real strategists game and doesn't need any multiplayer elements to make it strong. It will sell high on its single player experience alone just like Galactic Civilization 2 did.

 

cmon games from 1994 have lan suport you could make a server and join them x_x

Reply #233 from Elemental Forums Top

Again, all I see is crying and whining in this thread from the same people. Let me just ask a question, do you really think your whining is going to change anything at this point? No it isn't. Your also not going to change the minds of 90% or more of the people who will be buying the game for its' single player aspect, probably never even touching multiplayer. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you are generally disappointed that the game doesn't have what you were hoping for. It doesn't change the reality of things and your constant complaining isn't helping at all, as a matter of fact you just pissed off the CEO of the company. That's really gonna get what you want into the game and if you can't wait a little while until they add more features to the game than you really need to focus on what the priorities in your life are because gaming should not be at the top.

Reply #234 from Elemental Forums Top

Now I just have to worry about getting my cheap friends to pony up for a copy/seriel key of their own.

This is exactly my problem.  Before this thread, my friends and I were going to get together on the 25th to play a Lan game (and so I could also entice them to purchase the game too).  Now my conversation with them is going to go like this:

Me:"Hey guys, you still wana'a come over on the 25th to play Elemental via Lan and see if you want to buy it"?  Guys:"Ya"!  Me:"Ok, everyone go out and buy the game then".  8C

I know one other friend will buy this game for sure, reguardless of the new info on this thread, but I'm not so sure about the others any more.

Reply #235 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Femmefatal48, reply 231

Kiddie platformers always have a strong babyplay following there's no strategy to them. Just click n go and giggles. I could care less about Trine or any other kiddy platform game.

Elemental is a real strategists game and doesn't need any multiplayer elements to make it strong. It will sell high on its single player experience alone just like Galactic Civilization 2 did.

Really wished Brad hadn't included any MP features at all because it always brings the riff raff players like you around.

Let's see... "kiddie platformers", ego stroking part about a "real strategists game", and an insult aimed at MP users. Glad to see people focused on keeping the discussion quality high. >_>

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Reply #236 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Femmefatal48, reply 231


Elemental is a real strategists game and doesn't need any multiplayer elements to make it strong. It will sell high on its single player experience alone just like Galactic Civilization 2 did.

Really wished Brad hadn't included any MP features at all because it always brings the riff raff players like you around.

Have you seen the Galactic Civ_2 forums... dead as an asteroid in space.  Multiplayer greatly helps keep the community active and alive... glance at the Dominions forums which came from a small independent company and the fire still burns with activity on its forums.  An active forum community means more customized game content/maps, more responses for new topics, more evolution of game strategies, etc., etc.,

Reply #237 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting BlackRainZ, reply 233
Again, all I see is crying and whining in this thread from the same people. Let me just ask a question, do you really think your whining is going to change anything at this point? No it isn't. Your also not going to change the minds of 90% or more of the people who will be buying the game for its' single player aspect, probably never even touching multiplayer. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you are generally disappointed that the game doesn't have what you were hoping for. It doesn't change the reality of things and your constant complaining isn't helping at all, as a matter of fact you just pissed off the CEO of the company. That's really gonna get what you want into the game and if you can't wait a little while until they add more features to the game than you really need to focus on what the priorities in your life are because gaming should not be at the top.

You say you understand but then you insult, so no you don't.

I'll tell you what I want, since you didn't ask but presumed to know.

I want a list of what's in multiplayer, and what is not in multiplayer. I want information, factual information and none of this redefining terms garbage we've seen in this thread. I also want that list to be clear what is in the game on day 1 and what is planned for the future. None of these arguments or discussion or misunderstandings would have occurred if Stardock just gave out basic information on MP.

I just want to know what is in the multiplayer game, give me a no bs analysis, and this is not an invitation for snide remarks form the I want the SP game and the rest of you just stfu camp.

Reply #238 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Femmefatal48, reply 231

Kiddie platformers always have a strong babyplay following there's no strategy to them. Just click n go and giggles. I could care less about Trine or any other kiddy platform game.

Elemental is a real strategists game and doesn't need any multiplayer elements to make it strong. It will sell high on its single player experience alone just like Galactic Civilization 2 did.

Really wished Brad hadn't included any MP features at all because it always brings the riff raff players like you around.


A real strategists game against an AI..... hohoho, oh how I wish it was true but so far there hasn't been a strategy/tactical game with decent enough AI to beat the strategy of human player. A real strategists game is against real strategist people not against a computer, sure I do enjoy it but bragging about it like you are.... well let's just say it like this you are hiding your incompetence in single player or something.

Now froggie go make an AI that could actually emulate the situational awareness and response of a human opponent! And don't make it like my initial chess AI vs AI that thought moving pieces back and forth was the best way to go and never trying to capture a piece!

Reply #239 from Elemental Forums Top

Just wanted to add I love your idea on the DVDs without getting into this crazy discussion. Games and companies do disappear, you'd need to be Paul Muad'dib to know what the gaming industry will look like in say 15 years. Keep up the good work Frogboy. :)  

 

Reply #240 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nesrie, reply 237

I'll tell you what I want, since you didn't ask but presumed to know.

I want a list of what's in multiplayer, and what is not in multiplayer. I want information, factual information and none of this redefining terms garbage we've seen in this thread. I also want that list to be clear what is in the game on day 1 and what is planned for the future. None of these arguments or discussion or misunderstandings would have occurred if Stardock just gave out basic information on MP.

I just want to know what is in the multiplayer game, give me a no bs analysis, and this is not an invitation for snide remarks form the I want the SP game and the rest of you just stfu camp.

This.

Most of this could have been prevented with a simple "hey guys, some stuff didn't make it in yet. Here's whats in now, and what we will have in six months from now."

Instead we get it this surprise in a thread about something else (the good news about archive disks), no update on when it'll be in (or IF it'll be in, it's a "maybe"), and no information on what other talked about MP made it in. When people question Brad on that, he got angry and fled.

This is not the type of service I'm accustomed to as a Stardock customer. Considering what happened with Demigod, you'd think they would want to be extra clear on what is/isn't in so expectations are accurate. I think if we had that kind of information, this argument would stop. At least then everybody would know where things stand.

Reply #241 from Elemental Forums Top

Here's a question, why don't they make it like sins where you could use 1 game for 2 lan comps, but only 1 online comp?

Reply #242 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Polynomial, reply 220
I'm not even sure who wants to sit down for hours and play a game like this multiplayer anyways >.>

People with friends and family "Vork"  . . . .

Reply #243 from Sins Forums Top

#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game). This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players). Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.

I definitely don't like this as well... Its like asking people to make their friends buy their own copy of a xbox 360 game just so you can play multiplayer with a friend at your house.

I understand the argument that this game is mostly made for single player but why not develop a complimentary  download-able LAN client/server version of Reactor for LAN that would be compatible with all the games you could play on the Reactor online service.. All that would have to be done is have the program disable the Server pc's internet connection(while keeping the LAN connection of course) so that the client wouldn't be able to be used for pirated versions online.  The LAN version wouldn't require everyone to have their own serial numbers either.  Although to play over the internet one would still be required.

Definitely like the dvd archive though.

Reply #244 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Heretic, reply 229



Quoting Annatar11,
reply 204
Where do people get the idea that "LAN" automatically means no internet connection? LAN only means you have a bunch of networked computers. Having an internet connection or not doesn't change anything. Playing a game with a computer on the network hosting, and playing with every computer on the network connecting to an online server are both "LAN'. It's a term independent of gaming, making this whole debate silly.


Internet self-course in networking or did you pay off your teachers? I have this nagging feeling that you are one of those people that drag the average knowledge of IT people down towards the bottom. How hard is it really to understand that when you cross a certain network size it's no longer LAN but WAN. Or is the letters that get you confused?

Shesh pisses me off

How is this of any relevance? Who was talking about network size? Sure I didn't specify the number of computers connected, but that's beside the point. Nothing in this thread has anything to do with WANs.

Reply #245 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting PurplePaladin, reply 242

Quoting Polynomial, reply 220I'm not even sure who wants to sit down for hours and play a game like this multiplayer anyways >.>

People with friends and family "Vork"  . . . .

Stardock does not owe you anything but 1 fully functional game license.

Reply #246 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Anubis208-RG, reply 241
Here's a question, why don't they make it like sins where you could use 1 game for 2 lan comps, but only 1 online comp?

I'm not sure why they discontinued that. It was a great player-friendly feature. Since the game is running on the server anyway, you'd think they could enforce it there. Let you connect to your friend for 10 hours and try the game out or some such. Course, they could do the same thing with a guest pass feature.

Reply #247 from Elemental Forums Top

@Tridus (mostly)

You wanted the opinion of someone who ripped Blizzard in the SC2 thread, and I guess I qualify.

Comparing the single-player DRM of Elemental to SC2 is apples and oranges.  Elemental has no single-player DRM; SC2 does.  I'm against DRM in single-player, period.  As far as this goes, I'm still happy with Stardock, and still unhappy with Blizzard.

Comparing the multi-player experience ... well, here we have apples and apples.  What Stardock is doing for LAN is DRM.  It's streamlined, easy-to-use DRM, but this is a spade that needs to be called a spade: it's DRM.  (However, Frogboy is quite correct in that this is not copy protection.)

The over-arching question is, "Is DRM appropriate in this case?" 

My answer is no.  I have a great deal of respect for Frogboy, but in this case I think he is wrong.

I think it's dishonest to say that "Everyone who has a LAN should have internet access, therefore requiring registration for LAN play is OK."  That's the same argument as, "Everyone who has a computer should have internet access, therefore requiring registration for single player is OK," and it wasn't relevant or even true then.  The fact is that Stardock is trying to maintain a hold on their game after release, which infringes on the rights of the game's consumers. 

Furthermore, I think that requiring DRM on LAN games directly conflicts with Article 8 of Frogboy's own Gamer's Bill of Rights: "Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers."  Stardock clearly trusted me when I was only playing single player, even though I had the option to send copies of the DVD to every person in the state of Oregon.  Why am I being treated differently if I bring three of my friends over to my house?  Are they that terrible of an influence on me?

I understand Frogboy is ticked off right now, because I think some of the critics in this thread have been less than civil.  But I hope that someday soon he can put them aside and impartially re-examine his position.  I honestly believe that he's applying a double standard, given his unequivocal position on single player DRM. 

What I keep asking myself is, "Why is the mischief I can get up to with LAN fundamentally different from the mischief I can get up to with single player?" and I can't see enough of a difference to justify the addition of DRM.  Besides, if we're only talking about 0.1% of the gaming population, I'm at a loss as to why that small a segment has made Stardock come around 180 degrees in its approach to DRM.

 

 

With all that said, I think Tridus' underlying question was: Are you anti-DRM people going to walk away from Elemental now?   For me, the answer is that I will still get it and play it.  While I think it's a mistake to include LAN DRM, I was never, ever planning on using the multiplayer feature, so everything past my second paragraph is more or less irrelevant to my personal playing experience.  Adding DRM to LAN multiplayer affects me about as much as saying the DVD won't include a four-hour wmv file of bowel surgery that they promised us.  All I want is the single player game, and Stardock hasn't changed that ... yet.

Oh, and I love the idea of DVD updates.  Thanks, Stardock!

Reply #248 from Elemental Forums Top

So after all that i wont be able to play this game with my friends at work... (we dont all have internet access)

First Civ5 and now this...

 

Atleast i found out now so i can tell them not to bother buying.

 

 

Reply #249 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting PurplePaladin, reply 234

Now I just have to worry about getting my cheap friends to pony up for a copy/seriel key of their own.



This is exactly my problem.  Before this thread, my friends and I were going to get together on the 25th to play a Lan game (and so I could also entice them to purchase the game too).  Now my conversation with them is going to go like this:

Me:"Hey guys, you still wana'a come over on the 25th to play Elemental via Lan and see if you want to buy it"?  Guys:"Ya"!  Me:"Ok, everyone go out and buy the game then". 

I know one other friend will buy this game for sure, reguardless of the new info on this thread, but I'm not so sure about the others any more.

I just pre-ordered another copy and will register this one to my 13-year old son's Impulse Account.

I doubt he will play, (too enthralled with Modern Warfare 2) but I will do my best. At the same time I'll keep his account available for my LAN gaming buddy who I know is too cheap to buy his own copy.

On one hand, I work for a software company and understand the business model of each person needing their own key to play.  So I'll purchase multiple copies of games when needed.  Left4Dead, Starcraft, WoW, Medal of Honor.  Even though I'm looking at upwards of $100 for a new release each time.

On the other hand however, back when I was younger and poorer, this certainly would not have been an option.  A game like Emperor: Battle for Dune, I have installed on 4 PC's, and all 4 of us can play on LAN together with the same serial key.

It's rare to see game do that anymore.... :'(

Reply #250 from Elemental Forums Top

Geez is this thing heating up or what? Here I have the mental image of maybe 1 or 2 super nerds that want lan parties and they are crawling outta the wood works. Amazing from the outside looking in. I feel like I am watching a bad circus act or maybe at the zoo watching the monkeys fling poo...

Ah moments like this remind me why the internet is so grand.