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Elemental: Sneak Peaks

Elemental: Sneak Peaks

imageAs some of you know, Elemental BETA 3-B is the last public beta prior to the Modding beta (Beta 4). The modding beta will take things into a different direction while the team focuses on polishing, fixing bugs, and adding your requests into the main game in time for both the DVD release version (August 6)  and the Day 0 release version (August 24).

Having done these beta programs over the past 17 years, we’ve gotten a lot better at addressing beta tester concerns after the beta closes. Part of that is obviously the tech – until 2003, we had to do all our communication using public Usenet groups or static web pages. Not an ideal format as you can imagine.

In addition, starting with Galactic Civilizations I (2003) the retail gold and digital gold versions started being different.  This was fairly nice as it gave us an extra couple weeks to add other niceties based on player feedback.

So here are some FAQs we have gotten over the years and I’ll do my best to answer them:

Q: How much will the the released version be different from the last beta version?

A: Historically, a LOT.  Sins of a Solar Empire’s last public beta didn’t have infinite resources for instance.

Q: Why does so much change between the last betas and the release versions?

A: During the final stages of the beta, stability becomes our primary concern. The last beta cycles allow us to catalog the typically massive amount of crash and other stability problems that we then address as the beta closes. Then, with the game stable we get to look closer at all the great ideas people had and start incorporating that in. Tweaking gameplay and such is not time consuming.

Q: What is Stardock’s position of Elemental’s multiplayer?

A: Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game) rather than monkey around with trying to get players to connect with one another.  However, Elemental IS a single player game that happens to have multiplayer.  Out of the box, Elemental’s multiplayer will be essentially skirmish on fixed maps that have been pre-balanced (i.e. not randomly generated). 

Our standing policy continues to be that we won’t sacrifice the single player experience for multiplayer. That is, if we want to have a cool feature in single player that would de-balance multiplayer, we’ll just disable it from multiplayer rather than not have it in the game at all.

Over time, we will gauge the interest in expanding the multiplayer to see how many resources to put on it. 

Q: I want to know more about tactical battles

A: Without putting too fine a point on it, Elemental’s tactical battles are designed to be fairly similar to Master of Magic’s tactical battles. If you liked those, you’ll probably like these.  It’ll be an area getting the most refinement over the next 30 days and beyond since we hope to release mini-game modes that let players just play tactical battles.

On a personal note, I don’t like tactical battles normally. However, I do like MoM’s tactical battles and I do like Elemental’s tactical battles.

What is the most challenging in terms of doing tactical battles “nowadays” is that the bar on visuals is so high now. So we’re having to gather together a lot of animation assets, spell effects, unit moves, etc.  That’s what has made doing tactical battles so lengthy.  Elemental has a lot of monsters and each one has to have its own series of attack, hit, defense, casting, etc. animations. Beta 3B will basically have just a core set of these that will get greatly expanded over the next 2 weeks internally (though I did make a fuss about units “stabbing” with a club).

Q: How come there doesn’t seem to be a lot of worry about stability?

A: I’m going to show my age here. The tools for debugging nowadays are simply insane. In MY day, if we wanted to find a crash, we had to use beeps. We’d ask people for saved games and then try to reproduce it.  We’d measure crash fixes by N per week.

Now, if we get a .dmp file, we can load it up in Visual Studio and see the line of code it crashed in and the call stack.  That’s sick. Now, one person can go through an entire forum of crash dumps and fix them all before lunch (as in literally, before 12:00pm EST).  Modern developers are sissies.

Luckily, I personally try to add as many bugs each week as I can to help even the odds.

Q: How are you dealing with video card stuff?

A: Now this is trickier. There are certain video cards that are giving us fits, especially with advanced lighting. That includes blurred graphics. Corrupted graphics. White textures, etc.

In the old days, I’d email a user having the problem and ask them if I could call them on the phone and go back and forth (hey, we’re one of the few indie developers left).  We couldn’t afford to buy every video card out there.

Luckily, now, nVidia and ATI send us their cards and because of our non-game work, we have a compatibility lab set up which we’re hijacking starting this week to speed up the process.

Q: Where does the AI stand?

A: That’s what I’m working on from here on out. I’ve had to do a bit more on other areas of the game than I had intended but now I’m getting back to it.  My position on AI, however, doesn’t change. If the AI can’t use a feature, it comes out of the game. Period. Sorry.  Modders are certainly free to go nuts but in terms of officially sanctions “stuff” I only let that stuff in if the AI is able to use it.

One of the reasons why the game has changed (improved) so dramatically in the past month is because of the AI. The same frustrations you humans have the AI has double. Economics too slow or research too long? The AI notices it very fast.

Q: Will you keep us informed on what happens after the beta ends?

A: Absolutely. Users would be shocked I think to find out just how much of the forums we read and how many ideas we get that aren’t necessarily directly suggested.  Plus, I have Jason Ocampo (former editor at IGN and Gamespot) and Brian Clair (former editor of Avault) yelling at me every day on the things they don’t like.

180,731 views 100 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 25

quoting post
Q: What is Stardock’s position of Elemental’s multiplayer?
A: Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game)


I find this interesting. I'm curious why this was done (and hopefully Brad will be nice and comment). With a game like Elemental where latency is an extremely low priority, why bother setting up servers on a global scale? Why not just ensure you have enough servers at your HQ to handle the load?

Because they will be using this service for all their MP games in the future..(if I remember reading correctly)
This is a big investment into future titles as well as E:WOM 

Reply #27 Top

Quoting TheProgress, reply 25

quoting post
Q: What is Stardock’s position of Elemental’s multiplayer?
A: Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game)

I find this interesting. I'm curious why this was done (and hopefully Brad will be nice and comment). With a game like Elemental where latency is an extremely low priority, why bother setting up servers on a global scale? Why not just ensure you have enough servers at your HQ to handle the load?

another reason is if ONE area/server location loses internet OR power, the other locations can also allow the rest of the world to work, but if a centralised system was to go down, then ALL the world goes down, not just one region(if region restricted access or if distributed then the other servers gain a small increase in load from the server(s) that are unavailable

harpo

 

Reply #28 Top

It really pains me to read that MP and TB are token efforts, this was the only reason I preordered and now they are relegated to lets see if people want them expanded after release. Nowadays MP is essential imo.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 28
It really pains me to read that MP and TB are token efforts, this was the only reason I preordered and now they are relegated to lets see if people want them expanded after release. Nowadays MP is essential imo.

Well, I think it'll be really fun for LANs. I'm not worried about imbalances or just flat out poor MP at first. LANs will be my multiplayer for the first 2 months. But once my friends are bored of this game, then I hope to go truly online. 

That means, to me, that they have an extra few months to balance out MP and stuff before I get too worried about it. I just don't want it TOTALLY forgotten about. 

Reply #30 Top

sry double post

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 28
It really pains me to read that MP and TB are token efforts, this was the only reason I preordered and now they are relegated to lets see if people want them expanded after release. Nowadays MP is essential imo.

 

yeah i am more of a online player too and id like some more love, also multi imo doesnt really need a lot of resorces

 

but lets not forget they worked (and spent money) on servers, thats important too

civ4 online was shit and unplayable for years, and they really didnt care at all

Reply #32 Top

A: Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game) rather than monkey around with trying to get players to connect with one another. However, Elemental IS a single player game that happens to have multiplayer. Out of the box, Elemental’s multiplayer will be essentially skirmish on fixed maps that have been pre-balanced (i.e. not randomly generated).

Our standing policy continues to be that we won’t sacrifice the single player experience for multiplayer. That is, if we want to have a cool feature in single player that would de-balance multiplayer, we’ll just disable it from multiplayer rather than not have it in the game at all.

 

I understand that multiplayer isn't your focus, but how does giving players the option to play on a random map in multiplayer "sacrifice the single player experience"? Couldn't you let the players decide for themselves when starting a game whether or not they care if the map is pre-balanced?  My friends and I really have no interest in playing hard coded maps.

News of this development makes me wonder what other artificial limitations are going to be placed on multiplayer.  Since the maps are hard coded, will you have hard coded maps for games with all numbers of players? 2 - 32?  Will you allow games to have both humans and AI in multiplayer?

Reply #33 Top


Q: What is Stardock’s position of Elemental’s multiplayer?
A: Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game) rather than monkey around with trying to get players to connect with one another.  However, Elemental IS a single player game that happens to have multiplayer.  Out of the box, Elemental’s multiplayer will be essentially skirmish on fixed maps that have been pre-balanced (i.e. not randomly generated). 

 

what about team vs team?

1 v1 and skirmish is ok but online gaming is all about team vs team (of n elements)

shouldnt be hard to add this way of playing, i like to play WITH my friends not only against them

Reply #34 Top

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog, reply 29

Well, I think it'll be really fun for LANs. I'm not worried about imbalances or just flat out poor MP at first. LANs will be my multiplayer for the first 2 months. But once my friends are bored of this game, then I hope to go truly online. 

That means, to me, that they have an extra few months to balance out MP and stuff before I get too worried about it. I just don't want it TOTALLY forgotten about. 

If MP sucks for the first two months, by time you get around to trying it you probably won't find many people there. People don't tend to stick around online that long if something isn't fun to play (and Civ 5 is also coming out by then).

Reply #35 Top

I have a request about multiplay.  If you put something in Single play that could be interprited as "unbalanced" by some anal balance freaks out there, could you please still have it in multiplay but just allow it to be disable by us. There are some of us out here that want to multiplay the Single player game no matter how "unbalanced" some may precieve it.

Thank you. I just started playing the beta recently and it is pretty good so far except for the game crashing every few minutes.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 34

Quoting OMG_BlackHatHedgehog, reply 29
Well, I think it'll be really fun for LANs. I'm not worried about imbalances or just flat out poor MP at first. LANs will be my multiplayer for the first 2 months. But once my friends are bored of this game, then I hope to go truly online. 

That means, to me, that they have an extra few months to balance out MP and stuff before I get too worried about it. I just don't want it TOTALLY forgotten about. 
If MP sucks for the first two months, by time you get around to trying it you probably won't find many people there. People don't tend to stick around online that long if something isn't fun to play (and Civ 5 is also coming out by then).

Speak for yourself. I play MP games with friends on a regular basis, its hardcoded into the calendar week. ;)

Reply #37 Top

yup, lan its an old concept

Quoting Bellack, reply 35
I have a request about multiplay.  If you put something in Single play that could be interprited as "unbalanced" by some anal balance freaks out there, could you please still have it in multiplay but just allow it to be disable by us. There are some of us out here that want to multiplay the Single player game no matter how "unbalanced" some may precieve it.

Thank you. I just started playing the beta recently and it is pretty good so far except for the game crashing every few minutes.

 

this could divide the community

 

i rather have the frogboy idea of disabling the too much imbalanced options for multi

 

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Tyrrell, reply 13
You don't like tactical battles yet you like MoM.  I'd assume that you weren't then fond of the battles in Age of wonders or Age of Wonders II or else you wold have mentioned them (That's a honking big assumption I realize).  They seem to be very similar to me.  So, going further down my path of unwarranted speculation The access to two quite similar tactical battles, one which you're fond of and one which your not, should make it a fairly simple matter to spot the differences, throw them in your working model for elemental and see if you're right about what makes battles appeal to you.

In any case I'm rooting for something that I'll like, and I'm just pleased that there will be battles (I really missed them in Galactic Civ 2) and they won't be real time (I hated them in sword of the stars).

They are similar except I found that Age of Wonders:SM tactical battles were more fun. And I really hope the ELemental can indeed replace AOW:SM as my main Fantasy TBS game. I love Tactical battles.

Reply #39 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 36

If MP sucks for the first two months, by time you get around to trying it you probably won't find many people there. People don't tend to stick around online that long if something isn't fun to play (and Civ 5 is also coming out by then).

Speak for yourself. I play MP games with friends on a regular basis, its hardcoded into the calendar week.

What does that have to do with what I said? :P If MP isn't fun, people aren't going to stick around for a few months to see if it becomes fun. They'll go play something else.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting SteelFin, reply 22
I am not a huge fan of turn based combat but I am drawn to the game so far even without tactical battles in. I do wonder if the idea of a slow paced real time concept is still being considered as I thought it was once for combat. I am thinking of something similar to star wars empire at war on the galaxy map where the game doesn't wait for an end turn but moves at a pace such that the user can make decisions and give orders.

God I hope not. I would really hate to see any RTS elements in the game. With two exception I hate click-fest which most RTS games turn out to be.

Exception being: the Homeworld series and the Total War series.

 

Reply #41 Top

Quoting KellenDunk, reply 26

Quoting TheProgress, reply 25
quoting post
Q: What is Stardock’s position of Elemental’s multiplayer?
A: Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game)


I find this interesting. I'm curious why this was done (and hopefully Brad will be nice and comment). With a game like Elemental where latency is an extremely low priority, why bother setting up servers on a global scale? Why not just ensure you have enough servers at your HQ to handle the load?
Because they will be using this service for all their MP games in the future..(if I remember reading correctly)
This is a big investment into future titles as well as E:WOM 

 

I think one of the things that makes Stardock's games division great is the fact that Stardock isn't entirely a games company.  I think the mindset from the application side of things has caused Stardock to put more quality control and long-term thinking into their games then many other companies would. 

 

That said, being independent with deeper pockets and much larger size that the average independent helps plenty also, and also allows for longer-term thinking.  Public corporations tend to be risk-averse and short-sighted.

 

 

Reply #42 Top

(though I did make a fuss about units “stabbing” with a club).

Still doesn't hold a candle  to Assassin Creed 2's "Broom of Doom" }:)

Reply #43 Top

Quoting KWAiRT, reply 6



Elemental has multiplayer. To ensure that it is robust, we basically threw money at the problem (i.e. set up servers around the world to just host the game) rather than monkey around with trying to get players to connect with one another. However, Elemental IS a single player game that happens to have multiplayer. Out of the box, Elemental’s multiplayer will be essentially skirmish on fixed maps that have been pre-balanced (i.e. not randomly generated).



Does that mean that aside from map layout and starting position resources and animals etc etc will all be placed in the same spot every time? Are there any random elements to the static maps? I love random maps in multiplayer games. They are excellent for FFA modes. After release is there any chance you will continue to work on this?

 

Yeah I was really excited about the possibility for a strong multiplayer as well.

Reply #44 Top

I am disappointed by the fact that multiplayer will take a backseat to singleplayer. In this day and age having a strong multiplayer component is a staple in almost any strategy game. Hopefully you guys can work it in with an expansion.

Reply #45 Top

I am very poor and have a NVIDIA 6600GT video card. I wondered if the final release will work decent with this

Card, because the Beta 3A doesn't work very well ?

Reply #46 Top

Quoting shimwooley, reply 46
I am very poor and have a NVIDIA 6600GT video card. I wondered if the final release will work decent with this

Card, because the Beta 3A doesn't work very well ?

That is a tall order indeed. 

The 6600GT was intro'd in 2005 with 128MB ram. While I did enjoy mine, 128MB RAM just doesn't really make the grade in 2010.

I wish you the best of luck shim...

Reply #47 Top

Quoting shimwooley, reply 46
I am very poor and have a NVIDIA 6600GT video card. I wondered if the final release will work decent with this

Card, because the Beta 3A doesn't work very well ?

You should submit a report on the beta forum, but don't read too much into it right now. 3A's performance is choppy on my GTX 260 as well, and that's certainly more then powerful enough for Elemental. There's some optimization work left to do. :)

Reply #48 Top

 

For those freaking out about the MP, I think you should carefully read and consider what Brad just said about this earlier in the thread (bolding mine):

After release MP will evolve based on what active players are looking for.

For release, we're looking to provide a base starting point without making too many assumptions about what those users want.

Too many games, imo, come out and say "This is how you have to play it, take it or leave it." We learned with Demigod that it is far better to save some of the budget to see what the people who actually play the game that way want.

I read this to mean that they are essentially deferring the MP beta until after release. Unlike other developers, Stardock constantly improves their games after release. They probably could not make their August release date if they had to go back through an extensive MP shakedown so they have wisely set aside some of their budget to deal with that after release when they can get some quality feedback from the MP crowd on the basic version they'll have in the initial release.

So, relax, it'll get better. The release will not be the final state of MP in Elemental.

Brad, feel free to correct me if I'm off base here.

Reply #49 Top

How much of the real game will we see in Beta 3-B?

 

Reply #50 Top

I am also disappointed that multiplayer is starting to be second thought.

I do not really understand reason why you are going to limit MP only to specific maps. There is absolutely no reason to. Specific maps are great for ladders, and leagues, so using them there make sense. And I am for it.

But why limit custom games, which people might want to play, and its going to be only their choice? I am sure, there is alot of people who like exicement of random maps, and also those, who like to play together againts PC.

Also, removing some abilites from MP, for the balance purpose make sense for ladder, but why you want to do such a thing globaly is beyond me... At least, give people choice and do not force them to one scenario no matter what.

There can be easy option in game, where one would be able disable certain units, or spells etc... But forcing people to play your way, is bad idea in my opinion.

 

Other than that, I am happy with how things are coming together. But I would really like to elemental shine in SP and MP too. Because, I for one prefer MP games with friends much more.