Get Rid of the Clutter Please!!! (now with "fixed" highlighted colors)

Just Hear me out on this....

from Elemental Forums

Note: Bolding is for easy seeing of key words and scentences...not yelling. To Save the Devs time reading, Important Paragraphs are Highlighted.

As most of us here know, Sins of a Solar Empire was a Awesome Game. The game does amazing things when it comes to space strategy. It gives you the choice to go from view to view. From seeing the entire galaxy, down to looking at the details on the smallest ship in your fleet. There was always One Thing that bugged the hell out of me in Sins though and in My Opinion was not as "Good Looking" or "Intuitive" as intended. What part am I talking about you ask? The Side-Bar/Empire-Tree that ATE UP the Entire LEFT SIDE of the Screen. I know it could be tweaked, even turned off (I think it could be turned off, been a while). I know it could be collapsed and was adjustable. Let me explain more though...bare with me here, please.

On Small Maps the Empire Tree worked Great. It was out of the way enough to not be obtrusive yet still gave "at a glance" information on how many planets you had and how many armies you had and what types of units were in those armies. On Large Maps however, well, this is where things start getting Bad and Cluttered. Once the player had more then 10 planets and around 20 or so fleets or groups of ships this system started eating up more and more space on the Left Side of the Screen. It made the rest of the UI and game screen in general look Cluttered and Messy and from time to time it even Got In the Players Way. This is BAD, very BAD. As I said though, on Small Maps it works great. I don't think a lot of Elemental Players plan on playing Exclusively or Mainly on Small Maps however, do you?

I don't know about you, but I want Massive Games and Game Maps. Maps so huge that a Powerful Kingdom or Empire could very easily control 20 cities or more because they control such a Vast Area and have the needed Resources. Maps So Large that a Powerful Kingdom or Empire could field a army of up to 50,000 soldiers, not counting magical beasts that get recruited during the course of game-play. If Maps or Games of this size aren't possible just yet, they will be once Elemental gets the 64Bit treatment from the Devs. At this point we Will be able to make HUGE worlds. I'm seriously hoping they get this part done in time for when I start working on the Dragonlance Mod.

As we know, this "Empire Tree Display System" is being used in Elemental as well. I would like to state now I'm against this. I think it takes away from the wonderfully crafted look of the game, breaks immersion, blocks visuals, and some-times it even gets in the players way when trying to select a specific unit. Please take this Out of Elemental or make it so we can turn it Off Completely. I'd much rather use a Old School Empire Screen that shows a list of all my Cities and Armies and lets me list them anyway I like. Gal Civ 2 had this kind of screen as did many Many other strategy games and war games that were All Very Successful.

Here's an Example of Too Much Clutter in Sins:

too much clutter

In My Opinion, yes the Ship looks Amazing, Space looks Amazing, the Battles Look Amazing, ...... All that Clutter and BS on the left side of the screen? Looks Like Crap!!! Sorry, that's just how I see it. It is a Great System for SMALL Maps, maybe even Medium Sized Maps, but for Large and Huge Maps it doesn't work. It turns into a un-manageable Clusterf'k.

In Sins of a Solar Empire, it could "make sense" that a Galactic Leader in the Far Future could sit in his throne room or at his command station and see his entire Empire on a screen like this. In Elemental how-ever, does it really make sense? Maybe if my Sovereign was sitting in his throne room looking over his Kingdom/Empire through a giant crystal ball or something. Having all that clutter on the left side of the screen though, in My Opinion, highly takes away from the Immersive feeling of the world and game that you are working so hard to bring players into.

Please Consider removing this system and Implimenting a old school "Empire Overview" screen to list cities and armies/units/heros. Please think about it, or give us the option to turn this feature Off in Elemental.

Thanks for reading. Also thank you to the Devs for hopefully taking this under advisement. I do have a professional background in layout and design for video games. If you're Ultima Online Fans then you've seen some of my work in game in action. The Necro Spells and Spell tokens, the layout of how the books worked, that was Me. I didn't do the coding behind how it worked, but I laid out the drafts and worked up the mock-up screens of how I thought it should be laid out....and my boss liked the idea and passed it along. Next thing you know, the system was changed to what OSI was running back in 98-99. If you liked that system, you're welcome ;) .

elemental
42,980 views 73 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

i wish i was able to get rid of the side thing still keeps getting in the way... they should allow you to change almost anything about the UI for elemental when it comes out.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

you know you can always minimize the info so it wont get in the way that much, and I must say that all that yellow highlighting is to much and makes your post harder to read ;)

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Man, I wish I had the time (and hard disk space) to reinstall SoaSE. I miss its awesomeness. :(

Also: your choice of colours still needs upgrading. XD

 

The Tree is fine, only needs to adapt and improve to map size, resolution of screen... and if possible, customizable so we can sort how it shows information.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Right now the empire tree is being used only for Sovereigns, Champions, and Cities.  You bring up a good point about the possibility of large maps having cluttered empire trees, and it is definitely an issue we should think about as development goes on. Looking at the current system, I do think it will scale better than the one used in SoaSE because we are not keeping track of every single ship/unit in the tree.

That said, I like the empire tree.  It gives me all my cities in one place, and does it better than CIV IV and its domestic adviser.  I don't find it particularly flow breaking personally - no more so than the usual interface bars and numbers that we are accustomed to.  I would imagine that it would become even more necessary in larger games, especially the icon behavior indicating where cities are idle.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Impulsivity, reply 1
i wish i was able to get rid of the side thing still keeps getting in the way... they should allow you to change almost anything about the UI for elemental when it comes out.

Indeed. Even with the Tree Tabs "Minimized" it still got in the way and Broke Immersion, for me at least.

Quoting choarrim, reply 2
you know you can always minimize the info so it wont get in the way that much, and I must say that all that yellow highlighting is to much and makes your post harder to read

Hehe, sorry about the Yellow. Personally I can't stand Yellow either. It's too bright and shiny for my individual tastes. The last time I highlighted something though I used Red Text on a Black Background and people complained that was hard to see, or rather hard on the eyes, as well (which I can perfectly understand). What color should I use to highlight stuff and to make things stand out?

Either way, in my opinion, even with "you can always minimize the info" it was in the way and looked cluttered once you had a Large Empire. Immersion is very important to me as well. Honestly...I like to tie on a Good Buzz and sink my mind into a Good Game. The More Immersive, the Better. UI's that get in the way Seriously BREAK IMMERSION for me.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

My empire tree never looked like that.

Did you know, that you can filter, add/remove and group stuff?

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Writing the hardest to read post ever and calling it "Get rid of the clutter" You have overdone yourself. I just cannot get through it... :ninja:

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 5


What color should I use to highlight stuff and to make things stand out?

#b5a58c doesn't break the "immersion" of the forum and doesn't make the eyes bleed.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

i agree on your post, but your choice of colors is making a mockery of it.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 3
Also: your choice of colours still needs upgrading. 

The Tree is fine, only needs to adapt and improve to map size, resolution of screen... and if possible, customizable so we can sort how it shows information.

I have to say I think we dissagree on this one, my friend. I don't think "The Tree is Fine". It was novel and handy on Small Maps in SoaSE, but anything bigger then a hand-full of systems and ships and it was a mess that I just wanted to make Go Away Completely so I could see more of the screen.

As for the color choice, I don't like that drab brownish color you used there. It doesn't Stand Out Enough in my opinion.

Quoting Sareln, reply 4
Right now the empire tree is being used only for Sovereigns, Champions, and Cities.  You bring up a good point about the possibility of large maps having cluttered empire trees, and it is definitely an issue we should think about as development goes on. Looking at the current system, I do think it will scale better than the one used in SoaSE because we are not keeping track of every single ship/unit in the tree.

That said, I like the empire tree.  It gives me all my cities in one place, and does it better than CIV IV and its domestic adviser.  I don't find it particularly flow breaking personally - no more so than the usual interface bars and numbers that we are accustomed to.  I would imagine that it would become even more necessary in larger games, especially the icon behavior indicating where cities are idle.

Are you Sure it's only being used for Sovs, Champs, and Cities? I want to say that when I played last (which was last night) that it listed ALL my units. Even the mundane Peasant Armies I made. I'll do a new game tomorrow (about to go to bed here, it's 5:11 AM) and make sure.

Still, either way, I'd like to Turn Off the "Empire Tree" on the left side of the screen and use a Whole New Page of Information listing those things. Maybe make the page of info look like a long unwinding scroll. That would be cool IMO. ANYTHING would be better then seeing a line of units and buildings running down the side of my screen for no reason other then to tell me I own them. It pulls me Out of the Game World and Forces me to Realize I'm Playing a Game. A Good, Intuitive UI, makes you FORGET you're playing a game and draws you in DEEPER to the Game World. I know this from having worked in the Industry and any Good Game Designer (In My Opinion) will tell you that EXACT same thing. The Gods know it was drilled into my head over and over again by my Teachers in Game Design and Theory and by Industry Veterans alike.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting tesb, reply 9
i agree on your post, but your choice of colors is making a mockery of it.

Do a "refresh" on the page. Better Now? What's everyone think a good color should be for us to highlight things?

@Everyone: Also, more feedback on WHY this is a good system? What makes this system any better or worse then just having another screen to tell you what cities you have and where your armies and heroes are? Yes, it can be Minimized and folded down, but if I remember right it couldn't be gotten rid of completely. (my memory could be a little off because of my Meds)

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Hi there Raven. I love reading your posts, but your bolding strategy is starting to put me off a bit. How about you structure your posts for easy reading without the boldness :)


Example:

 

Mermaids in Elemental

In this post I will explain why mermaids are a bad idea as an Elemental creature. First I will look at the mythology and then I will look at the practical problems of such a sea creature. Finally I will make a short summary of my points.

 

Mermaids mythology

blah blah

 

Practical problems with Mermaids and their stats

blah blah

 

Conclusion

Just dont do it.

 

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 7
Writing the hardest to read post ever and calling it "Get rid of the clutter" You have overdone yourself. I just cannot get through it...

LoL, sorry, my friend. I'm still experimenting with a "Highlighting Color" everyone likes or that isn't hard to read.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 12
Hi there Raven. I love reading your posts, but your bolding strategy is starting to put me off a bit. How about you structure your posts for easy reading without the boldness


Example:

 

Mermaids in Elemental

In this post I will explain why mermaids are a bad idea as an Elemental creature. First I will look at the mythology and then I will look at the practical problems of such a sea creature. Finally I will make a short summary of my points.

 

Mermaids mythology

blah blah

 

Practical problems with Mermaids and their stats

blah blah

 

Conclusion

Just dont do it.

 

Honestly, spacing out the structure of a post can make things needlessly long. That's also just my opinion though. Personally, I've know some game Devs who simply wouldn't read an entire post No Matter How Good it may or may not be, simply because it was too long. I'm also almost positive the Internet Initialing "TLDR" which means "Too Long Didn't Read" was invented by a Lazy Game Developer and then filtered down to the "L33T" speaking public.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, its your choice ofcourse. One final note though. Splitting the text and organizing it neatly will not make it longer. You will be able to say the same in fewer words in my opinion. You will also have more enlightened audience that can follow your points.

When I started writing like this on my exams my grades improved in every subject. Why? Because sensors are lazy too. When they find the text summed up in the beginning and the logical conclusion at the end, they can follow my points and grade it easily.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 15
Well, its your choice ofcourse. One final note though. Splitting the text and organizing it neatly will not make it longer. You will be able to say the same in fewer words in my opinion. You will also have more enlightened audience that can follow your points.

When I started writing like this on my exams my grades improved in every subject. Why? Because sensors are lazy too. When they find the text summed up in the beginning and the logical conclusion at the end, they can follow my points and grade it easily.

I'll take that into advisement for my next post of this nature, my friend. I'll try spacing it more even though I tend not to like the structure at that point. If it makes it easier for other people then I won't mind the extra effort.

Anyway though, lets get back on to the main Topic. Who else wants to see this "style" of Empire Tree be turned off, at least through a Option?

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Why not just keep it short. This is not my opinion I really like the tree in elemental, in Sins though despite the collapsability it was sometimes ridiculous.

 

I have found while playing Sins that the empire tree becomes way too large and obstructing on larger maps. On smaller maps it was manageable but on the largers it could become like this: (your picture)

This is not very immersive and tends to pull me out of the game. Perhaps making it more integrated into the medieval field through scrolls or likewise would make it better.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 10

I have to say I think we dissagree on this one, my friend. I don't think "The Tree is Fine". It was novel and handy on Small Maps in SoaSE, but anything bigger then a hand-full of systems and ships and it was a mess that I just wanted to make Go Away Completely so I could see more of the screen.

As for the color choice, I don't like that drab brownish color you used there. It doesn't Stand Out Enough in my opinion.

In SoaSE I tend to only open the tree in the systems I wanted to check and never played in uber maps (I like to finish my games and I lack such time magnitudes). And just becuase it "didn't work" for big maps doesn't mean it should never be used again. What happens with evolution then? I won't let it go until they have shown us that they tried to improve it and proven beyond doubt that it's not possible.

Things can stand out with non bright colours, use of underline, quotes... and with some HTML/CSS you can play with margins/padding between other things.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

First of all, you could very easily set stuff in the Empire Tree to stack, so instead of an icon list that long, you'd see one for each type of ship with a number on it. That took up far less space. You've got it set on the most space-taking configuration, and then complain about it taking up too much space. That's pretty silly.

Second of all, I couldn't even finish your post. All the highlighting and bolding is distracting and makes it painful to read. Cut that out. :( You're not helping get your point across, you're just making peoples eyes bleed.

Don't hilight anything, and bold things that are actually key to the post. Once you do half of it, you've completely defeated the point.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 18



Quoting Raven X,
reply 10

I have to say I think we disagree on this one, my friend. I don't think "The Tree is Fine". It was novel and handy on Small Maps in SoaSE, but anything bigger then a hand-full of systems and ships and it was a mess that I just wanted to make Go Away Completely so I could see more of the screen.

As for the color choice, I don't like that drab brownish color you used there. It doesn't Stand Out Enough in my opinion.



In SoaSE I tend to only open the tree in the systems I wanted to check and never played in uber maps (I like to finish my games and I lack such time magnitudes). And just because it "didn't work" for big maps doesn't mean it should never be used again. What happens with evolution then? I won't let it go until they have shown us that they tried to improve it and pr oven beyond doubt that it's not possible.

Things can stand out with non bright colors, use of underline, quotes... and with some HTML/CSS you can play with margins/padding between other things.


Indeed, I do agree there. I don't necesarily think the Empire Tree system currently in place should be Completely Wiped Out. I'd rather see it be able to be turned On or Off with a Option. As I said I thought it worked great on Small Maps and even Sometimes Medium Maps....Unlike you though, my friend, my life (unfortunately for now) consists almost entirely of sitting in front of my PC playing games. The more EPIC (Huge) the game, the more my mind is taken off the Constant pain I'm in and the more I get Drawn In to the game world. That's really important to me.

Note: I'll keep experimenting with post lay-outs, colors, and bolding and underlining in future posts.

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Couldnt the tree be more dynamic? When the tree get to a certain size, it can change rules to not give too much clutter. Instead of showing 12 red archer units it could collaps them into a blue archer unit after reaching 10. Then if you mouse over the blue one, then it expandes to individual red ones that are clickable.

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 19
First of all, you could very easily set stuff in the Empire Tree to stack, so instead of an icon list that long, you'd see one for each type of ship with a number on it. That took up far less space. You've got it set on the most space-taking configuration, and then complain about it taking up too much space. That's pretty silly.

Second of all, I couldn't even finish your post. All the highlighting and bolding is distracting and makes it painful to read. Cut that out. You're not helping get your point across, you're just making peoples eyes bleed.

Don't highlight anything, and bold things that are actually key to the post. Once you do half of it, you've completely defeated the point.

Again, I'm sorry about the colors. I think from now on I just won't use colors and I'll stick to just Bold Text. I think I Did Bold the Parts that needed to be viewed easily. My eyes pick up on it just fine, that's just me though. Also, I make these posts from the Elemental Forums. Not from Wincustomize, not from the Sins web-site, nor any other of these "linked" sites. In my eyes, if you Truly Care enough about Elemental to comment on it and talk about game mechanics, you should be doing it HERE on the Elemental forums. If you're not doing it from here for what-ever reason, then to me you obviously don't care enough about Elemental for your opinion to matter to me. Maybe I'm being a snob there, but that's how I feel on the matter. If the colors I use here don't show up well on "some other site" I honestly don't care. Either view them as the poster intended, or don't complain when it doesn't look the way you think it should look on some other forums. Maybe I'm a Elemental snob? LoL

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 20

Unlike you though, my friend, my life (unfortunately for now) consists almost entirely of sitting in front of my PC playing games.
Enjoy it while it lasts because once you are "on your feet" again, forced labor (aka need of a job to pay bills) will be upon you like a starving Homer over a doughnut. ;)

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 21
Couldn't the tree be more dynamic? When the tree get to a certain size, it can change rules to not give too much clutter. Instead of showing 12 red archer units it could collapse them into a blue archer unit after reaching 10. Then if you mouse over the blue one, then it expanders to individual red ones that are clickable.

That could work, but, it's still being Forced into the players face with No Way to get rid of it for those of us who want to maximize our view of the world and all the love put into crafting it. I'd rather go old-school and have a totally separate page or tab or screen to see all that stuff. That's only my personal opinion on the matter. I just might be in the minority on this one...

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 23



Quoting Raven X,
reply 20

Unlike you though, my friend, my life (unfortunately for now) consists almost entirely of sitting in front of my PC playing games.Enjoy it while it lasts because once you are "on your feet" again, forced labor (aka need of a job to pay bills) will be upon you like a starving Homer over a doughnut.

I make a decent living from sitting here on my ass, even being as sick as I am. There's also no guarantee that after the surgery I'll even be able to go "back to work" at a "Real Job". I might end up being on disability.